Jammu and Kashmir: News and Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

ajtr

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
12,038
Likes
724
J&K: 1,514 FIRs against Army, 97% cases false


Jammu: Over 100 Army men including 48 officers have faced punitive action in cases related to human right violations in Jammu and Kashmir over the last two decades, Army said Wednesday.

"As many as 1,514 FIRs have been registered against army personnel for alleged human rights violations in the last 20 years of militancy", Brigadier General Staff (BGS), Northern Command, Sanjay Verma said.

He said that out of these 1,508 cases have been investigated while probe is continuing in the remaining six cases.

"As many as 1,473 complaints - nearly 97 per cent of the cases-- were found false and baseless," Verma said.

However, 35 cases (2.3 per cent of total cases) were found true, he said, adding that 104 armymen including 48 officers have been punished for human rights violations in J&K.

"Our accountability is very strong. Our investigation and punishment in cases related to alleged human rights violations is very fast," the Brigadier said, underscoring that there "is no room for mistakes.

Army has alway maintained zero-tolerance to human rights violations," he said.

Army officials maintained that they were following certain strict edicts, including presence of police representative during operations and immediate handing over of detainees to police, while conducting counter-terrorism operations under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA).



Army ensures that a police representative is present as part of the operational team though an exception could be made in remote areas where the strength of the police force may not be sufficient to be deployed in more than one operation going on simultaneously, they said.

All operations are conducted as joint operations with the police, they said adding that recoveries made, detainees and bodies of those killed are immediately handed over to the local police.

"No unilateral arrests or searches are made. All actions are based on hard actionable intelligence," they said, adding that army has discontinued crowd control measures and has left the task to the state police.

"No women are searched until women police personnel are present during the operation," they said.

PTI
 

ejazr

New Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
I think one thing people should realise is that they should get over the "fear that J&K will secede". Because this "fear" deters people to think holistically about the Kashmir problem that eventually needs a political settlement with some sort of autonomy. This is what all parties from the BJP to the Congress to the CPIs understand. The political settlement is the LAST thing that you do once all militant groups have surrendered or put down arms. What the contours of the autonomy will be, that is the question. And during the negotiations that will have to include what Centre-state relations will be like. For example, central agencies like Corruption Vigilance committees, commissions for tribals SC/ST, women, NHRC e.t.c. should have jurisdiction in J&K which they currently do not. Then they might want autonomy on things related to commerce, land use, police forces and population security, cultural and religious affairs e.t.c. which there is no problem with giving over to them. Then you have touchy issues like cross border interaction and open borders, elected governors,designation as PM e.t.c some which can be given like cross-border interaction, but others that would be a strict no like two PMs.


Secession can happen only in two cases.
(1) A foreign power intervenes militarily in the region and forces India to carve out a separate independent territory, example East Timor. The only country capable of doing that is US. Not even China can afford to this as this will readily escalate into a nuclear conflict.
(2) A majority of the people of India but basically a two-thirds majority parliament passes a bill to allow secession of J&K.

Since neither of this is going to happen, there is no possibility of Kashmir seceding at all. No matter what happens.


Now once that is understood, there are four crucial aspects of the current environment of Kashmir issue
(1) Due to some of our own mistakes, Pakistan, US and history, Kashmir keeps popping up on the international media causing embarrassment. Ofcourse if its positive news like surveys showing only 2% want to join Pakistan e.t.c. that is not a problem. But this is a reality that has to be accepted and tackled with effectively. We can't be Ostrich in the sand and expect this to blow over.
(2) Mainly due to Centre (Congress) interference, J&K state has never had free and fair elections except post 2001 and under the Janata Party. Free and fair elections are essential to allow the locals to feel that they can choose their leaders. Not allowing them to choose their leaders and doing deals and intrigues with the Abdullas and others resulted in resentment that becomes a fertile ground for pro-secessionist forces. This is also the reason why J&K has never had any state control over its own subjects as other states have had, espicially in the past 2 decades.
(3) Post 1990 and even till now, J&K is in a conflict situation that needs special COIN tactics. Key of which is a population centric strategy. This is not some whishy-washy way of talking about HR rights. In COIN a population centric warfare is key to success. The Army knows this and probably learnt it intuitively but the CRPF and police needs regular training on this. There is a whole range of governance issues as well. But this is the reason why Army is more popular in the border areas where it has more presence. While although there is no Army presence in urban areas, the CRPF is very unpopular there.
(4) Information Operations are an important aspect of any COIN ops. This is not propaganda but just getting some basic honest info out to the people. Getting in touch with local leaders and Imams and priests. Letting the local media know that our fight is a population centric fight that will focus on people security, not once but continuously. This involved even basic things like referring to Hizb, LeT e.t.c. as takfeeri groups rather than Jihadi groups as calling them takfeeri would strip away the veneer of honor that these groups try to wear when they actually are takfeeri in nature.
It also means minimizing negative fallouts or countering rumors. For example setting up hotlines and then publishing number of calls every month will show factual info on what the ratio of abuse is instead of propaganda by Pakistani based takfeeri groups. This includes using everything from conventional media like TV, radio and press releases to new age media like facebook and youtube.
 
Last edited:

S.A.T.A

New Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
@Energon

My criticism of your description of the role played by the national institutions is still valid and you haven't yet substantiated your unacceptable charged nor how those charges are valid.I don't think it would be necessary to go deep into the reasons why indian forces had to be deployed for law enforcement duties in Kashmir.When the rule of law and civil order is disturbed by armed elements,who present a challenge which is significantly higher than what state enforcement agencies are trained or adequately equipped to contend with,then State is authorized to deploy all resources available to face the threat.Can to claim with any degree of certainly that such challenge to the law and order does not exist in the state of J&K.That a state and its law enforcement organs are legally equipped to employ violence in order to restore the rule of law is well accepted principle in governance system all over the world.Your suggestion that security forces are indulging in HR violation and not law keeping flies in face of reality and is merely a reflection of your prejudiced views regarding the nature of indian law enforcement and also reflects serious lack of appreciation of the environment in which the law enforcement organs function in valley.

That your understanding of he issues involved differs from mine is now very clear.The only reason you contend Kashmir should not secede from India is because you believe that Kashmir cannot function as an independent state as it has none of the advantages or characteristics for becoming one.While agree with the latter, but if Kashmir had the qualifying advantages to survive independently then you would support secession.I'm disappointed to note that the concern is still Kashmir but the larger question of India.For me the question of considering secession simply does not arise because such a question is completely antitheses to the fact indian nationhood.

The entire basis of your 'Kashmir solution',and sadly that of others who subscribe to the 'greater autonomy' theory,is that India somehow 'Holds' on Kashmir and hence any solution regarding Kashmir revolves around how to keep that hold and is regardless of how tenuous such a hold might be.The origins of this thinking goes to back to the days of British Raj,where the primary sphere of Raj policy undertaking was to keep the Empire tethered together but also to ensure that the empire never coalesced together under any nationalist surge to the detriment of the Raj.The instrument of Accession,Article 370 are the left over from days of such imperialist thinking.sadly such moribund thinking still carries currency indian India's think classes.

Let me forthright in declaring that India does not Hold Kashmir,certainly not for some perceived tactical or strategic advantage.India and all Indians believe Kashmir is part of India and like the limbs of a body we don't call holding something that is natural part of the whole.When something ails a part of the body and threatens to grow cancerous and harm the rest of the body,the remedy is to cure the specific ail and destroy the cancerous growth in the bud,not cutting the entire limb off the body.

Nation building is a continuous process and must be persevered even in the the most peaceful of times.Rhetoric's like Kashmir will not be ceded by India must be equally matched by policies that diminish such an eventuality.If Kashmir is to be integrated into the national whole,we cannot rely on hackneyed approach that hasn't provided a solution in the last 60 years.If 60 years of Kashmir's relation with rest of India,conducted via the provisions of the Article 370 have not achieved any serious people to people communication, a healthy center-state relationship or reduced frequent burst of anti-indian sentiment,how can any sane person argue that continuing with such a provision and even strengthening it would.
 

ejazr

New Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
SATA,

I am interested in you articulating what would be the next steps that would happen once A370 is "removed". What would be the next steps that would happen to "integrate" the people? Although I think you have missed the point that practically J&K did not have any autonomy in the real sense and had rigged elections most of the time was the main problem initially.
And doesnt evey state have autonomy in the Indian constitution? The centre-state relationship is basically explaining how much autonomy each state has. And so each state from Kerala, Gujarat, Nagaland and Punjab all have some sort of autonomy.

COIN is population centric and gaining the confidence of the people is paramount. This is what the policy is of the army, and the GoI, the people who are in the field and on the ground.

My contentions is that if you remove A370 tommorow would have no change on the ground. Hence why I think A370 debate is nonsequitor. Once people leave aside the emotional attachment to A370 they can focus on steps that are actually productive to improve the situation. Negotiations on centre-state relations happens only after a peaceful and secure environment is created. That peaceful environment is not there at present.

By the way, have you ever gone through the J&K study on www.peacepolls.org ? Go through the pdf study and you will understand the priorities of the people and what they think. Although the study is around 2009, It should reflect the the sentiments more or less on the ground eve now.
 

S.A.T.A

New Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
@Ejazr

Rescinding Article 370 will not substantially alter the security challenges Indian faces with regards to the security in the state,that will will continue regardless.however it will positively contribute to create an enabling environment where the union government will be in a better position to target development oriented issues,in the absence of any need to direct resources and polices through the intermediary state govt(the state govt also can supplement with its own resources and polices)the union govt will have superior control how,where and how resources are deployed and hence elicit better results.in the Absence of the Article 370 Kashmir will not be magically transformed into a developed, strife free society,however they will be better placed to march toward that end along the rest of the Indian states.

Autonomy is inherent to any federal structure of governance and is equally true of our federal setup.However one the key objectives of a nation state with federal setup is the convergence of limits,function and the nature of the Autonomy among the various autonomous units.Laws will benefit the society when there is more clarity in their scope and application hence convergence is desired.when a nation enacts laws radically divergent in their scope and application and when such laws disturb the near equanimity of a federal setup,it reduces clarity and encourages dysfunctionality.

Article 370 has enabled a situation wherein a federal state is more equal than others and this could encourage more equality from other federal units,thus making he setup dysfunctional in the long run.Moreover a federal setup exists on the principle that the national parliament,the ultimate arbitrator of law making in the land reigns supreme and cannot be equal,i power or scope,to any of the federal unit.Article 370 negates this fundamental principle of a federal democracy.Article 370 in many respects treats the j&k legislature as 'sovereign equal' to the national parliament.This why Article 370 is against the very principle of a federal democracy.India as a nation simply cannot afford a adhoc system of distributing federal powers.

Yes i have gone through the poll and let me confess i maintain reservation regarding the representative character of the polls or the samples who where surveyed,such polls hence are very subjective and their results are only partly indicative but not substantially.However keeping my reservation aside,if one where to look at the 'general grievances' listed in the polls,the ones that receive most attention are corruption,education,employment(among others with varying degree of priority.)Significantly among several provision of the indian constitution that does not apply to the state of jammu & Kashmir(thanks to article 370) are the Indian penal code and prevention of Corruption Act.While the state may have a something similar,there are serious lacunae regarding its effectiveness because of its lack of accountability and general lack of independence.because incidence involving corruption or associated crimes cannot be investigated by an independent(meaning non J&K)agency with better resources it also means the people of the state are denied another resource to combat corruption which otherwise would have been available to them.There are other similar drawbacks which i will desist from dwelling into at this moment,but its suffice to say that removing constitutional bottlenecks will make available to the people of J&K better resources ad opportunities which otherwise is not made available to them(private investment in labour intensive industries or private educational institutions from the rest of India)

If you and i agree(and Energon will certainly agree)that better people to people contact and making greater resources available for employment generating industries,better education better infrastructure etc are the meas to bring normalcy to the state and foster peace and goodwill,then abrogating Article 370 will herald the first concrete steps towards making those resources available and we cannot do that in a constitutionally disabling environment.
 

Daredevil

On Vacation!
New Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
11,615
Likes
5,775
Geelani faces shoe protest in national capital

A shoe was thrown towards hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani at a function in New Delhi on Thursday as a group of people, including Kashmiri Pandits, staged a strong protest against his presence.

The protestors, shouting slogans like 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' and 'Vande Mataram', created ruckus at the convention on 'Azaadi -- The Only Way' which was being attended by a number of sympathisers of Kashmiri separatists and naxals.

Though Geelani was yet to speak, the protesters numbering around 70 shouted slogans asking him to leave.

Amid the pandemonium, someone threw a shoe towards Geelani on the dais but it missed him.

A human chain was immediately thrown around him on the dais by the security personnel and organisers to protect the leaders on the dais.

The protestors were taken out by police personnel.
 

Energon

DFI stars
New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
1,199
Likes
767
Country flag
@Energon
My criticism of your description of the role played by the national institutions is still valid and you haven't yet substantiated your unacceptable charged nor how those charges are valid.I don't think it would be necessary to go deep into the reasons why indian forces had to be deployed for law enforcement duties in Kashmir.When the rule of law and civil order is disturbed by armed elements,who present a challenge which is significantly higher than what state enforcement agencies are trained or adequately equipped to contend with,then State is authorized to deploy all resources available to face the threat.Can to claim with any degree of certainly that such challenge to the law and order does not exist in the state of J&K.That a state and its law enforcement organs are legally equipped to employ violence in order to restore the rule of law is well accepted principle in governance system all over the world.Your suggestion that security forces are indulging in HR violation and not law keeping flies in face of reality and is merely a reflection of your prejudiced views regarding the nature of indian law enforcement and also reflects serious lack of appreciation of the environment in which the law enforcement organs function in valley.
I think you're conflating three points here. First, the ascribed role of the Indian armed forces in the valley. Second, the veracity of their ascribed role and the deployment in general. And third, my observation of the current ground realities. It is only the third point that is an issue here. Yes, the armed forces are in Kashmir to enforce law and order in an unstable area which is greatly affected by an armed insurgency. And as stated in my earlier post there are state's officials from all branches who perform their ascribed role with honesty and integrity under difficult conditions and receive very little credit for it. The initial military deployment was on the very valid account of the uprising aided by an exogenous insurgency of epic proportions. I will also go so far as to say that the suppression of that insurgency (circa 1996) will probably go down in the books as a very successful one. That however does not change the fact that Kashmir is currently facing an occupation, and the seige is very much real, as are all the HR violations, extrajudicial murders etc. All of these facts are well documented. Sumit Ganguly, Sumatra Bose, Wirsinig, Samay Ram, Steve Coll, Arif Jamal et. al have been my sources thus far, and they are considered gold standard at least as far as the international community is concerned. I would say the best descriptive synopsis of the siege is in Basharat Peer's "Curfewed night."

There isn't a single long term heavy military deployment even if for the sake of keeping peace that hasn't yielded a similar outcome, including the deployment of American and British troops in France right after WWII. The primary reason for this by most accounts is because the Indian government responded with an overwhelming military response (which we now know is the best option), but did not follow it up with a robust social and political plan in the aftermath of the military success. It should be noted that the primary blame is not with the military, but with the central governments.

The lack of reform and the subsequent poor performance of the Indian law enforcement agencies is also well documented as in the case of the recent human right's report. This is not a personal bias
 

ajtr

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
12,038
Likes
724
J&K's accession with India full & final: Karan


From Gopal Sharma

AKHNOOR, Oct 21: While putting a lid on the controversy pertaining to accession or the 'merger' of Jammu and Kashmir State with the Union of India and the so called role of some people in between, former Sadar-e-Riyasat and son of Late Maharaja Hari Singh, Dr Karan Singh ( Cong MP) today said that accession of J&K State with the Union of India was full and final and any body should not have any iota of doubt about it.

"The State of Jammu and Kashmir became the part of India like other major States after my Bapuji (father, Maharaja Hari Singh) signed the instrument of accession with the Union of India. There was no difference at all in any terms and conditions and our State also become part of India like other States. It is different thing that some developments took place later and by virtue of Article 370, the State got the special status which no other State has in the country", Dr Singh said at the sidelines of a function organized to unveil a bronze plaque at Jia Pota Chenab bank where Raj Tilak ceremony of Maharaja Gulab Singh took place on June 17, 1928.

"I do not want to go into the details or legality of the situation or further status, but let us place a full stop on any further controversy over the issue. There had been some developments in the recent past and more was read and listened in the media over the controversy. The things should be very clear to the people", Dr Singh added.

When asked for his comments on Chief Minister Omar Abdullah's remarks that it was just accession and not merger, Dr Singh avoiding any further controversy said that he would not like to differentiate or fall into legalities but put the things straight by saying that a document of accession was signed by Late Maharaja and by virtue of which this State became part of India. J&K has special status which no other State was enjoying and it also has it own Constitution.

Addressing large gathering Dr Singh said the present situation was not good in the Jammu and Kashmir. Amidst curfews, strikes, agitations, many innocent people have lost their lives. Over one hundred people who got killed during the Kashmir agitation, were the sons, brothers of somebody. It is very painful and unfortunate. They are citizens of this country. He said youth in Kashmir are pelting stones. The Jammu people will never do it. Pelting stones or indulging in violence is also not good and leads to nowhere. He said issues can be solved through dialogue and the Government is doing its best to restore peace and resolve issue.

Former Sadar-e-Riyasat further said that Jammu and Ladakh can not be ignored in any decision or dialogue. Without their involvement no headway can be made on any issue. He said the representatives from Jammu region should project aspirations of the people and their voice strongly heard at any fora. The rich culture of Dogra be projected and preserved. He said 'Jia Pota' place at the bank of river Chenab in Akhnoor is the first chapter of the Dogra rule, because at this place Maharaja Gulab Singh was coronated as Maharaja of Jammu on June 17, 1822 under historic Jia Pota tree by Lion of Punjab Maharaja Ranjit Singh himself. It is matter of proud for the people of Akhnoor and Dogra region. Thereafter, his fore fathers extended the boundaries of the State and J&K became the largest State of India with 84,000 sq miles area up to Ladakh, Gilgit and Baltistan.

Dr Singh said installing bronze plaque of the founder of J&K State at Akhnoor is just like repeating history again. And this plaque at this historic place is being installed on the birth anniversary of Late Maharaja Gulab Singh. He complimented the MP Madan Lal, Minister for Health Sham Lal, members of Maharaja Gulab Singh Trust, Brig J S Rajput and members of the Akhnoor Reception Committee who contributed a lot in raising this historic plaque. He said Akhnoor has already been brought on tourism destination and it will attract a large number of pilgrim tourists coming to Mata Vaishnodevi and Shiv Khori. He also honoured many persons including K P Singh, president of the Reception Committee and Director Tourism N K Verma for their contribution on the project on this occasion.

MP Madan Lal in his address said that with the installation of this historic plaque at this place an effort has been made to leave footprints of our great rulers for the coming generations. This place is the first step and rather beginning of Dogra rule in the Jammu and Kashmir. He said it was responsibility of each leader and person from this region to project and protect his Dogra culture, heritage and work for promotion of this language. He pointed out that a vacuum has been created in the leadership in Jammu region after the demise of leaders like Pt Tarlochan Dutt and it is need of the hour to protect the interests of the people of Jammu and raise their voice. Some conspiracies are being hatched against the people of Jammu and the representing people here should remain vigilant and aware.

Minister for Health said that Akhnoor town has attained more historic and tourism attraction and huge funds are being spent to develop it as good tourist destination. He said Ghats have been developed and one more on the Eastern bank will be developed shortly. One more bridge is being constructed over Chenab and Reasi will be connected to Jammu via Akhnoor tehsil shortly. It will open new routes for pilgrims visiting Vaishnodevi. Ajatshatru Singh extended gratitude to MP Madan Lal, his brother and also people who worked for installation of this plaque of Late Maharaja.

Earlier, Dr Karan Singh accompanied by his son, Kumar Ajatshatru Singh (MLC), MP Madan Lal Sharma and Minister Sham Lal unveiled the plaque of Maharaja Gulab Singh being coronated by Maharaja Ranjit Singh amidst Vedic sermons at the bank of river Chenab. A large number of people of the town and adjoining area witnessed the occasion.
 

S.A.T.A

New Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
Energon you have the right o have an opinion and even express it,i respect that and similarly extend it to others,but your considered opinion is not the absolute fact,your determination to project indian security forces as having laid siege to the valley(without a casus belli) or committing unrestricted gross HR violation,are unsubstantiated and hence unacceptable as ground facts.Your sources,if i may dare say,have been previously proved to be not entirely unbiased and hence will not attach too much premium to their views accept that they have an opinion and have the right to have it(i certainly cant speak for the International community,but i couldn't care less)

The recent terror attack in Srinagar further proves that the security environment that first brought the indian security forces into the valley in the late 80's and 90's has not improved significantly nor has there been any diminishing of the security challenge in the valley in the form of presence of armed terrorists.Any talk of withdrawal of security forces(if that's what you are demanding)is entirely premature and would result in negative fallout's.I agree that indian govt did not utilize the opportunity that was inherent in the charged atmosphere of 1989-1995 to dissolve the Article 370 and initiate real socio-economic integration of the state with the Nation. No serious economic or development oriented reforms can be attempted unless the Parliament through the aegis of the central govt can control the process,i don't have to reiterate what we need to do to achieve this.
 

parhar1975

New Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2010
Messages
4
Likes
0
We must act like Israel.All radical elements and corrupt politicians should be kicked out of India or made to pay for their deeds.Integrity of our country can not be sacrificed once again as in 1947 .If terrorism in Punjab was delt with ! Why not J&K ?
 
Last edited:

ejazr

New Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
@Ejazr

Rescinding Article 370 will not substantially alter the security challenges Indian faces with regards to the security in the state,that will will continue regardless.however it will positively contribute to create an enabling environment where the union government will be in a better position to target development oriented issues,in the absence of any need to direct resources and polices through the intermediary state govt(the state govt also can supplement with its own resources and polices)the union govt will have superior control how,where and how resources are deployed and hence elicit better results.in the Absence of the Article 370 Kashmir will not be magically transformed into a developed, strife free society,however they will be better placed to march toward that end along the rest of the Indian states.
I am glad that you can understand that A370 in itself is not the answer to the problem we are facing. But I humbly disagree that the notion that direct Central role will help in developing J&K faster.

My understanding is that you are saying A370 is basically an impediment to development and BECAUSE of this there is alienation.

There are two points around this:
(1) J&K relations to the Centre were governed with A370 and IoA for only 7 years, then there were bouts of president rule and illegal elections followed by Indira-Abdulla Accords that currently govern the centre-state relations. IF you go through the text of these agreements, there is nothing radically opposing centre interference when needed and infact, centre interference is what has exacerbated the problem particularly by Congress during elections.
(2) Development is best achieved when it is ground up. That is the Centre should work in colaboration with local partners. This means going to J&K officials, down to autonomus regions of Jammu Ladakh and eventually for real tangible development to take place at Local government level or Panchayat level. Ofcourse with big projects like Hydel power projects, highways and roads and trains, the centre can acquire land from the state and participate in these projects but again by hiring locals and with partnership with locals to create interdependance with them

Autonomy is inherent to any federal structure of governance and is equally true of our federal setup.However one the key objectives of a nation state with federal setup is the convergence of limits,function and the nature of the Autonomy among the various autonomous units.Laws will benefit the society when there is more clarity in their scope and application hence convergence is desired.when a nation enacts laws radically divergent in their scope and application and when such laws disturb the near equanimity of a federal setup,it reduces clarity and encourages dysfunctionality.
An excellent point, and eventually a politcal settlment of the issue will require that centre state relations for J&K be clarified and have the stamp of approval from all major stakeholders like Jammuites, Ladakis, Kashmiris as well as Muslims, Pandits, Sikhs, Buddhists and ethnic groups like Dogras, Bakkerwalas, Gujjars, Kashmiris e.tc.

Article 370 has enabled a situation wherein a federal state is more equal than others and this could encourage more equality from other federal units,thus making he setup dysfunctional in the long run.Moreover a federal setup exists on the principle that the national parliament,the ultimate arbitrator of law making in the land reigns supreme and cannot be equal,i power or scope,to any of the federal unit.Article 370 negates this fundamental principle of a federal democracy.Article 370 in many respects treats the j&k legislature as 'sovereign equal' to the national parliament.This why Article 370 is against the very principle of a federal democracy.India as a nation simply cannot afford a adhoc system of distributing federal powers.
I will actually suggest that you read the important documents basically IoA, A370, the Indira Abdullah accords wherein the primacy of the union of India is clearly mentioned, there is nothing that make it soverign equal. India because it consists of such a diverse group of ethinc, racial and religious groups needs to be flexible enough to be innovative and has been in defining centre-state relations. That is why you have special provisions in different state and even laws like non-Himachalis can buy land in Himachal Pradesh are valid because of these special concessions. I think this is innovation rather than ad hoc. An in the diversity of India necessary even. That is why India is the only country in the world that has about 20+ recognised langauges. And where its national language-Hindi is not even accepted by large parts of the south and Marathi ethno-centric groups making up a huge chunk of its population.

Yes i have gone through the poll and let me confess i maintain reservation regarding the representative character of the polls or the samples who where surveyed,such polls hence are very subjective and their results are only partly indicative but not substantially.However keeping my reservation aside,if one where to look at the 'general grievances' listed in the polls,the ones that receive most attention are corruption,education,employment(among others with varying degree of priority.)Significantly among several provision of the indian constitution that does not apply to the state of jammu & Kashmir(thanks to article 370) are the Indian penal code and prevention of Corruption Act.While the state may have a something similar,there are serious lacunae regarding its effectiveness because of its lack of accountability and general lack of independence.because incidence involving corruption or associated crimes cannot be investigated by an independent(meaning non J&K)agency with better resources it also means the people of the state are denied another resource to combat corruption which otherwise would have been available to them.There are other similar drawbacks which i will desist from dwelling into at this moment,but its suffice to say that removing constitutional bottlenecks will make available to the people of J&K better resources ad opportunities which otherwise is not made available to them(private investment in labour intensive industries or private educational institutions from the rest of India)


The poll is very well done IMO. The results have been consistent across various polls. The media tends to sentionalise issues rather than present cold hard facts. It is well worth the read for boththe Indian and Pakistani side. The only regretful part is that Gilgit Baltistan is not included.

If you and i agree(and Energon will certainly agree)that better people to people contact and making greater resources available for employment generating industries,better education better infrastructure etc are the meas to bring normalcy to the state and foster peace and goodwill,then abrogating Article 370 will herald the first concrete steps towards making those resources available and we cannot do that in a constitutionally disabling environment.
I think the better way to go about this is
(1) Fully secure the population and attend to their priority grievances first. This includes activists and MLAs of mainstream parties, police and army officials and their houses. Dedicated riot police to tackle stone pelters. Hiring locals to induct them into security forces like police and CRPF.

(2) Begin a concerted Info operations effort. In conflict zones, rumour mongering is a big problem. Launch call centres and help lines. I think there is already the beginning of HR cells in districts. Get the local Imams and eldres of localities involved in securing the population. Start soccer and cricket clubs to indulge the youth.

(3)Finally RENEGOTIATE Centre-State relationship. This new negotiation will replace IoA, A370 and accords. Just scrapping A370 tommorow and then not doing anything will not help.
The new agreement should incorporate some necessary aspects like the corruption, Women's commision, census bodies e.t.c. that are national statutory bodies that will actually benefit the people of J&K. They can get special privliges with regards to protecting their cultural and religious rights based on the discussion with all stakeholders in J&K.
BUT this should be done ONLY when takfeeri groups like LeT, Hizb e.t.c. declare ceasefire and stop violence. This should be made clear and the locals have made this clear as well that they dont need the help of these takfeeri groups.
 

ejazr

New Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
Some Historical Documents related to J&K


INSTRUMENT OF ACCESSION
Instrument of Accession executed by Maharajah Hari Singh on October 26, 1947

Whereas the Indian Independence Act, 1947, provides that as from the fifteenth day of August, 1947, there shall be set up an independent Dominion known as INDIA, and that the Government of India Act 1935, shall with such omissions, additions, adaptations and modifications as the Governor General may by order specify, be applicable to the Dominion of India.

And whereas the Government of India Act, 1935, as so adapted by the Governor General, provides that an Indian State may accede to the Dominion of India by an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof.

Now, therefore, I Shriman Inder Mahinder Rajrajeswar Maharajadhiraj Shri Hari Singhji, Jammu & Kashmir Naresh Tatha Tibbet adi Deshadhipati, Ruler of Jammu & Kashmir State, in the exercise of my Sovereignty in and over my said State do hereby execute this my Instrument of Accession and

1. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India with the intent that the Governor General of India, the Dominion Legislature, the Federal Court and any other Dominion authority established for the purposes of the Dominion shall by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession but subject always to the terms thereof, and for the purposes only of the Dominion, exercise in relation to the State of Jammu & Kashmir (hereinafter referred to as "this State") such functions as may be vested in them by or under the Government of India Act, 1935, as in force in the Dominion of India, on the 15th day of August 1947, (which Act as so in force is hereafter referred to as "the Act').

2. I hereby assume the obligation of ensuring that due effect is given to provisions of the Act within this State so far as they are applicable therein by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession.

3. I accept the matters specified in the schedule hereto as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make law for this State.

4. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India on the assurance that if an agreement is made between the Governor General and the Ruler of this State whereby any functions in relation to the administration in this State of any law of the Dominion Legislature shall be exercised by the Ruler of the State, then any such agreement shall be construed and have effect accordingly.

5. The terms of this my Instrument of Accession shall not be varied by any amendment of the Act or the Indian Independence Act, 1947, unless such amendment is accepted by me by Instrument supplementary to this Instrument.

6. Nothing in this Instrument shall empower the Dominion Legislature to make any law for this State authorizing the compulsory acquisition of land for any purpose, but I hereby undertake that should the Dominion for the purpose of a Dominion law which applies in this State deem it necessary to acquire any land, I will at their request acquire the land at their expense, or, if the land belongs to me transfer it to them on such terms as may be agreed or, in default of agreement, determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Chief Justice of India.

7. Nothing in this Instrument shall be deemed to commit in any way to acceptance of any future constitution of India or to fetter my discretion to enter into agreement with the Government of India under any such future constitution.

8. Nothing in this Instrument affects the continuance of my Sovereignty in and over this State, or, save as provided by or under this Instrument, the exercise of any powers, authority and rights now enjoyed by me as Ruler of this State or the validity of any law at present in force in this State.

9. I hereby declare that I execute this Instrument on behalf of this State and that any reference in this Instrument to me or to the Ruler of the State is to be construed as including a reference to my heirs and successors.

Given under my hand this 26th day of October, nineteen hundred and forty seven.

Hari Singh
Maharajadhiraj of Jammu and Kashmir State.

SCHEDULE OF INSTRUMENT OF ACCESSION
THE MATTERS WITH RESPECT TO WHICH THE DOMINION
LEGISLATURE MAY MAKE LAWS FOR THIS STATE

A. Defence

1. The naval, military and air forces of the Dominion and any other armed forces raised or maintained by the Dominion; any armed forces, including forces raised or maintained by an acceding State, which are attached to, or operating with, any of the armed forces of the Dominion.

2. Naval, military and air force works, administration of cantonment areas.

3. Arms, fire-arms, ammunition.

4. Explosives.

B. External Affairs

1. External affairs; the implementing of treaties and agreements with other countries; extradition, including the surrender of criminals and accused persons to parts of His Majesty's Dominions outside India.

2. Admission into, and emigration and expulsion from, India, including in relation thereto the regulation of the movements in India of persons who are not British subjects domiciled in India or subjects of any acceding State; pilgrimages to places beyond India.

3. Naturalisation.

C. Communications

1. Posts and telegraphs, including telephones, wireless, broadcasting, and other like forms of communication.

2. Federal railways; the regulation of all railways other than minor railways in respect of safety, maximum and minimum rates and fares, station and services terminal charges, interchange of traffic and the responsibility of railway administrations as carriers of goods and passengers; the regulation of minor railways in respect of safety and the responsibility of the administrations of such railways as carriers of goods and passengers.

3. Maritime shipping and navigation, including shipping and navigation on tidal waters; Admiralty jurisdiction.

4. Port quarantine.

5. Major ports, that is to say, the declaration and delimitation of such ports, and the constitution and powers of Port Authorities therein.

6. Aircraft and air navigation; the provision of aerodromes; regulation and organisation of air traffic and of aerodromes.

7. Lighthouses, including lightships, beacons and other provisions for the safety of shipping and aircraft.

8. Carriage of passengers and goods by sea or by air.

9. Extension of the powers and jurisdiction of members of the police force belonging to any unit to railway area outside that unit.

D. Ancillary

1. Election to the Dominion Legislature, subject to the provisions of the Act and of any Order made thereunder.

2. Offences against laws with respect to any of the aforesaid matters.

3. Inquiries and statistics for the purposes of any of the aforesaid matters.

4. Jurisdiction and powers of all courts with respect to any of the aforesaid matters but, except with the consent of the Ruler of the acceding State, not so as to confer any jurisdiction or powers upon any courts other than courts ordinarily exercising jurisdiction in or in relation to that State.
 

ejazr

New Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
Article 370 of the Indian Constitution

(1) Temporary provisions with respect to the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution,-

(a) the provisions of article 238 shall not apply in relation to the State of Jammu and Kashmir; (article 238 has been repealed in the 7th amendment and defines centre-state relations for most of the other states)

(b) the power of Parliament to make laws for the said State shall be limited to--
(i) those matters in the Union List and the Concurrent List which, in consultation with the Government of the State, are declared by the President to correspond to matters specified in the Instrument of Accession governing the accession of the State to the Dominion of India as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make laws for that State; and
(ii)such other matters in the said Lists as, with the concurrence of the Government of the State, the President may by order specify.
Explanation.- For the purposes of this article, the Government of the State means the person for the time being recognised by the President as the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir acting on the advice of the Council of Ministers for the time being in office under the Maharaja's Proclamation dated the fifth day of March, 1948;

(c) the provisions of article 1 and of this article shall apply in relation to that State;

(d) such of the other provisions of this Constitution shall apply in relation to that State subject to such exceptions and modifications as the President may by order specify :
Provided that no such order which relates to the matters specified in the Instrument of Accession of the State referred to in paragraph (i) of sub-clause
(b) shall be issued except in consultation with the Government of the State :
Provided further that no such order which relates to matters other than those referred to in the last preceding proviso shall be issued except with the concurrence of that Government.

(2) If the concurrence of the Government of the State referred to in paragraph (ii) of sub-clause (b) of clause (1) or in the second proviso to sub-clause (d) of that clause be given before the Constituent Assembly for the purpose of framing the Constitution of the State is convened, it shall be placed before such Assembly for such decision as it may take thereon.

(3) Not withstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this article, the President may, by public notification, declare that this article shall cease to be operative or shall be operative only with such exceptions and modifications and from such date as he may specify :
Provided that the recommendation of the Constituent Assembly of the State referred to in clause (2) shall be necessary before the President issues such a notification.

The Kashmir Accord 13 Nov 1974
Agreed conclusions which led to Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah's accord with Mrs. Indira Gandhi, Prime Minister, and his subsequent assumption of office as Chief Minister in February 1975:

1 . The State of Jammu and Kashmir which is a constituent unit of the Union of India, shall, in its relation with the Union, continue to be governed by Article 370 of the Constitution of India.

2. The residuary powers of legislation shall remain with the State; however, Parliament will continue to have power to make laws relating to the prevention of activities directed towards disclaiming, questioning or disrupting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of India or bringing about secession of a part of the territory of India from the Union or causing insult to the Indian National Flag, the Indian National Anthem and the Constitution.

3. Where any provision of the Constitution of India had been applied to the State of Jammu and Kashmir with adaptations and modifications, such adaptations and modifications can be altered or repealed by an order of the President under Article 370, each individual proposal in this behalf being considered on its merits; but provisions of the Constitution of India already applied to the State of Jammu and Kashmir without adaptation or modification are unalterable.

4. With a view to assuring freedom to the State of Jammu and Kashmir to have its own legislation on matters like welfare measures cultural matters, social security, personal law and procedural laws, in a manner suited to the special conditions in the State, it is agreed that the State Government can review the laws made by Parliament or extended to the State after 1953 on any matter relatable to the Concurrent List and may decide which of them, in its opinion, needs amendment or repeal. Thereafter, appropriate steps may be taken under Article 254 of the Constitution of India. The grant of President's assent to such legislation would be sympathetically considered. The same approach would be adopted in regard to laws to be made by Parliament in future under the Proviso to clause 2 of the Article. The State Government shall be consulted regarding the application of any such law to the State and the views of the State Government shall receive the fullest consideration

5. As an arrangement reciprocal to what has been provided under Article 368, a suitable modification of that Article as applied to the State should be made by Presidential order to the effect that no law made by the Legislature of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, seeking to make any change in or in the effect of any provision of Constitution of the State of Jammu and Kashmir relating to any of he under mentioned matters, shall take effect unless the Bill, having been reserved for the consideration of the President, receives his assent; the matters are:

(a) the appointment, powers, functions, duties, privileges and immunities of the Governor, and

(b) the following matters relating to Elections namely, the superintendence, direction and control of Elections by the Election Commission of India, eligibility for inclusion in the electoral rolls without discrimination, adult suffrage and composition of the legislative Council, being matters specified in sections 138, 139 140 and 50 of the Constitution of the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

6. No agreement was possible on the question of nomenclature of the Governor and the Chief Minister and the matter is therefore, remitted to the Principals.

Mirza Mohammad Afzal Beg
G. Parthasarathi
New Delhi, November 13, 1974
 

ejazr

New Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
4,523
Likes
1,388
Excerpts from Sheikh Abdullah's Opening Address to the J&K Constituent Assembly, 5 November 1951

Our movement to freedom has been connected against the background of this same old struggle. We stood for the brotherhood of men of all creeds and strengthened our union on the basis of common work and sacrifice .Against us were ranged the force of religious bigotry centred in the Muslim league and its satellites, and the Hindu communalists from within and without the State. Ranged against us ,and often in alliance with communalism were the forces of the autocratic States ,backup on the Paramount Power, and on the other, by the rich landowners and other beneficiaries of Court patronage.

We must remember the our struggle for power has now reached its successful climax in the convening of this Constituent Assembly. It is for you to translate the vision of NEW KASHMIR into reality, and I would remind you and its opening words , which will inspire our labours:

"We the people of Jammu , Kashmir and the Frontier regions , including Poonch and Chenani Illaqas - commonly known as Jammu and Kashmir States -in order to perfect our union in the fullest equality and self-determination ,to raise ourselves and our children for ever from the abyss of oppression and poverty darkness and ignorance into the sunlit valleys of plenty ruled by freedom , science and honest toil , in worthy participation of the historic resurgence of the peoples of the East and the working masses of the world , and in determination to make this our country a dazzling gem on the snowy bosom of Asia do purpose and propound the following constitution of our state"

This was passed at the 1944 Session of the national Conference in Srinagar , Today in 1951 embodying such aspiration , men and women from the four corner of the State in this constituent Assembly have become the repository of its sovereign authority. This assembly , invested with the authority of a constituent body , will the fountain head of basic laws , laying the foundation of a just social order and safeguarding the democratic rights of all the citizens of the State.

You are the sovereign authority in this State of Jammu and Kashmir ;what you decide has the irrevocable force of law. The basic democratic principle of sovereignty of the nation , embodied ably in the American and French Constitutions , is once again given shape in our midst. I shall quote the famous words of article 3 of the French Constitution of 1791:-

"The source of all sovereignty reside fundamentally in the nation "¦"¦. Sovereignty is one and indivisible , inalienable and imprescriptable. It belongs to the nation."

We should the clear about the responsibility that this power invests us with. In front of us lie decisions of the highest national importance which we shall be called upon to take . Upon the correctness of our decisions depends not only the happiness of our land and people now, but the fate as well of generations to come.

What then are the main functions that this Assembly will be called upon to perform?

One great task before this Assembly will be to devise a Constitution for the future governance of the country . Constitution- making is a difficult and detailed matter. I shall only refer to some of the board aspects of the Constitution . which should be the product of the labours of this Assembly.

Another issue of vital import of the nation involves the future of the Royal dynasty .Your decision will have to be taken both with urgency and wisdom , for one that decision rests the future Form and character of the state.

The third major issue awaiting your deliberations arises out of the Land Reform which the Government carried out with vigour and determination . our "land to the tiller" policy brought light in to the dark homes of the peasantry; but, side by side , it has given rise to the problem of the landowners demand for compensation .The nation being the ultimate custodian of all wealth and resources . the representatives of the nation are truly the best jury for giving a just and final verdict on such claims. So in your hands lies the power of this decision.

Finally this assembly will after full consideration of the three alternatives that I shall state later . declare its reasoned conclusion regarding accession. This will help us to canalise our energise resolutely and with greater zeal in directions in which we have already started moving for the social and economic advancement of our country.

To take our first task , that of Constitution- making we shall naturally be guided by the highest principles of the democratic constitutions of the world. We shall base our work on the principles of equality. Liberty and social justice which are an integral feature of all progressive constitutions . The rule of law as understood in the democratic countries of the world should be the cornerstone of our political structure . Equality before the law and the independence of the Judiciary from the influence of the Executives are vital to us. The freedom of the individual in the matter of speech. Movement and association should be guaranteed ; freedom of the press and of opinion would also be features of our constitution, Indeed not refer in great detail to those rights and obligations, already embodied in NEW KASHMIR, which are integral parts of democracy which has been defined as "an apparatus of social organisation wherein people govern themselves through their chosen representatives and are themselves guaranteed political and civil liberties".

You are no doubt aware the scope of our present constitutional ties with India,We are proud to have our bonds with India,the goodwill of whose people and Government and available to us in unstinted and abandant measure .The constitution of India has provided for a fedral union and in the distribution of sovereign power has treated us deffirently from other constituent units. With the exception of the items grouped under Defence , Foreign Affairs and Communication in the instrument of Accession . we have complete freedom to frame our Constitution in the manner we like. In order to live and prosper as good partners in a commanendeavour for the advancement of our peoples. I would advise that, while safegaurding our autonomy to the fullest xetent so as to enable us to have the liberty to build our country according to the best tradition and ginius of our people . we may also by suitable constitutional arrangments with the aunion establish our right seek and compel Fedral co-opration and assistance in this great task.as well as offer our fullest co-opration and assistance to the union.

Whereas it would be easy for you to devise a document calculated to creat a framework of law and order . as also a surbay of the duties and rights of citizens, it will need more admous labour to atke concrete decisions with regard to the manner in which we purpose to bring about the rapid economic development of the State and more equitable distribution of our national income among the people of which we are pledged . Our national confrence avows its faith in the principle that there is one thing comman to men of all castes and creeds and that is their humenity. That being so,the one ailment which is ruthlessly sapping the vitality of human beings in jammu and kashmir is their appalling poverty, and if we merely safegaurd their political freedo m in solemn terms , it will not effect their lives materially unless it guarantees them economic and social justice.

NEW KASHMIR contains a statement of ther objectives of our social policy. It gives broudly a picture of the kind of life that we hope tro make possible for the people of jammu and kashmir and the manner in which the economic organisation of the country will be geared to that purpose. These ideals you will have to intigrate with the political structure which you will devise.

The future political set-up which you decide upen for Jammu and kashmir must also take into consideration the extence of verious sub-national groups in uor State .Although culturally diverse, history has forged an incomman unity between them; they all are pulseting with the same hoopes and aspirations, sharing in each others joys and sorrows. While guaranteeingthis basic unity ofg the state,our Constitution must not permit the concentration of power and privilege in the hands of any particuller group or teriritorial region. It must afford the fullest possibilities to each of these groups to grow and flourish in confornity with their cultural characteristics, without detriment to the integral unity of the State or the requirments of our social and economic policies.

Now let us take up an issu e of basic importance which involves the fandamental character of the State itself .As an instruments of the will of a self -determination people who have now become sovereign in their own right, the Constituent Assembly will now re-examine and decide upon the future of the present ruling dynesty , in respect of its authority.

The present Iiouse of the Rulers of our state based its claim to authority on the treaty Rights granted to it by the British Government in 1846. To trhrow light on the nature of these rights , it will be helpful to recall that the British power in its drive for territorial xepension , achived its objectives through a network of alliences with the indian Princes subsidieary and subordinate . ofensive and defensive . This mutually helpful arrangment enable the British to consolidate their power and streangthened the grip of the princes, giving them military halp in the event of rebellion by their exploted subjects . The butler Committee Report on Treaty Rights in 1929 bears ample testimony to this. It says:

"The duty of the Paramount Power to protect the states against rebellion and instruction is derived from the clouse of treaties and sanads, from usage and from the promise of the King Emperor to mentain unimpaired the privileges, and dignities of the princes "¦"¦. The promis of the King Emperor to maintain unimpaired the privileges , rights and dignities of the Prince against attempts to climinate him and subsitute another from of Government."

In recongnition of their service s to the british Crown the indian Princes earned the rebards of a limited sovereignty over their States under the protection and suzerainty of the paramountr power. It was in this way that their rights , privileges and prepogatives were preserved.

Thus the poineers of British Imperialism subjugated India ,aided by the Indian Princes . This was hardly dfiplomacy ;it aomouted to fraud and deceit. Mutal agrrrments arrived at for such ignoble purposes were invested with the sanctity of treaties . And it is from such "treaties " that the princes claimed their right to rule. Our own State provides a classic example of this . One glance at a page of our history will lay bare the truth.

The State of Jammu and kashmir come to be transferred to Maharaja Gulad Singh in 1846 after the Sikh Empirbegan to disintegrate.II is falure to rander competent assistence to the Sikh armies was duly noticed by the British as also his willingness to acknowledge their authourity . This paved the way for the total occupation of Northern India by the british who were not slow in recongnising Maharaja Gulab Singh 's services to them. In reward they sold him the territory of Jammu and Kashmir for 75 lakhs of rupees and in the "Territory of Amritsarthe british Government made over the entair country in independent possession to "Maharaja Gulab Singh and the hairs male of his body." In this way the entire population of jammu and Kashmir State come under his absolute authority. The peculier indignity of the transaction natureally offened the national self -respect of ourpeople.. who resisted the occupation of their country. But the direct intervention of the British troops helped the Maharaja to take possession of the territory.

This event in the history of the State had catastrofic consequences for the people . the old feudel order , which was bad enough gave way to more exacting rule, in which the Maharaja assumed all properietary rights over land. The enire State was plunged into a chantic economic condition , aggravated by a heavy scale of taxation . tributes and levies wich were required to make up for the money given by the maharaja to thye British.This unrelieved despotism reduced the bulk of the people to the level of serfs. There was general impowerishment . In 1848, some 4,000 artisans started on trek to Lahore with the object of permanetly settling there.Even the british counselled the Maharaja to loosen his grip so as to avoid to total collaspe of his administration .Perhaps the forefathers of the great poet -philosopher son of kashmir,iqbal,were also part of the same trial of migrents who left the State of this time. When his agony over the fate of the people of his homeland brust out in immortalverse, his fillings are echoed in the heart of every kashmiri:

"O Wind, if you pass through Geneva, give this massage to the comity of the people of the world.They sold the peasant,his field , his propertyand the roof over his head,in fect,they sold the entirenation and for what a paltryprice!"

invested with this absolute authority acquired in 1846,the present ruling dynesty was in power for one hundred years. This sad and stern century of srevitude has stultified the grouth of our people;leaivng them in the backwaters of civilisation. While in British India ,and even in some of the Indian State,many a measureof reform was introduced to alleviate the misery of the people,in this State the unenlightened absoutism of the RulersDrove them deeper and deeperinto poverty and degradation. When cinditions becomeincreasingly intolrable, they made determined,efforts to wrest power from the hands of the ruler.

By 1947, India had achieved independence and reached one of her historicalwatershedes.It was clear that with the withdrawal of the Paramount Power ,the treaty rights of the Indians princes would cease. Sovereignty in that case should revert to the people, they wished therefore to be consulted about the arrangements to be made with regard to the transfer of power. But a strang situation arose. The cabinet Mission . while admiting the claims of the Indian National Congress and the Muslims league in the british India , completely refused a similar representation of the states' peoples, who would not allow the right of the princes to speak on their behalf.

In our own state , the national Confrence had made it clear as early as Febuary 10,1946 that it was against any further continuance of the treaty rights of the Princes which had been "made in times and under circumstances which do not obtain and now which have been farmed without seeking the concent of the State peoples. Under such circumstances , no treatics or engagements which act as a dividing wall between their progress and that of their brethern of british india, can be binding on the people."

It was in this connection that I invited the attention of the Cabinet Mission to the standing iniquity of the treaty of Amritsar,and sought its termination . I wrote to the Cabinet Delegation to that

"as the Mission is at the moment reviewing the relationship of the princes with the paramount Power with reference to treaty rights, as wish to submit that for us in kashmir reexamination of this relationshipis a vital matterbecause a hundred years ago in 1846 the land and people of kashmir were sold away the British for 50 lakhs of Britishindian Rupees. The people of Kashmir are determind to mould their destiny and we apeal to the Mision to recognise the justice and streangthof our cause."

In the Memorandum submitted to the cabinet mission later by the national conference , the demand for independenence from autocracy was reiterated:"Today the national demand of the people of kashmir is not mearly the establishment of responsible Government ,their right to absolute freedom from autocratic rule . The immensity of the wrong done to our people by the sale deed of 1846 can only by judged by looking into the actual living conditions of the people .It is the depth of our torment that hasgiven strenth to our protest."

The different attitude of the cabinet Mission to the claimes of the State's people convinced us that freedom would not be given to a hundred million people who were to be left to be grown under the heel of autocratic rulers. Consquently the national Conference gave a call ot the people to prepare themselves for fresh ordeals nad new responsibilities in the final bid for the capture of power from the hands of authocracy.This call came on the eve on the transfer of power in India and was therefore in kipping with the spirit of thre times.

The partition of india in 1947 brought many new problems and developments in its wake. In kashmir , the very fooundations of the administration begain to sake ,and ther government made frantic efforts to patch up the creaking structure. Its incompetence had become glaring .With the tribal raids on the State in october 1947,it was obvious that the maharajah's authority had creased to function and the real power lay in the hands of the people's organisation ,the national conference .Even at this hour of grave national danger,the ruler failed to see the wishdom of taking of this organisation into his confidence and the preferred ascape to the dignity of a farmer surrender. When the situationbecome critical, the unpreccdented pressure of the people forced him to call upon the representatives of the Nationsal Confernce to deal with the emergency , when he himself had failed to handle the affairs of the state effectively.

The emergency Administartion in the state marked in effect a revolutionary transfer of power from the ruler to the people.

It was however the proclamation of march 5,1948.which constituted the first step towards the completion of national emancipation .On this day , as the leader of the largest party of the state , was entrusted with its Government ,being assisted by a cabinet with full power to run the administration . The maharajah's authority was limited to that of a constitutional ruler,making it imperative upon him to consult his Government on all issues relating to the government of the State.

This was obviously aninterim measure. The Cabinet of the people's representatives thus choosen function with the support and co-opration of the national Conference . but with the passage of time it became clear that the maharajah could not reconcilhimself to this democratic system of Governent.He put positive impediments in the way of the Government .these threatened to bloch much -needed reform in verious spheres of administration. It was, therefore . natural that following disagreement between him and the Government on matter on polcy . that he should disconnect himself from the admonistration and leave the state.His young son Yuvaraj karan Singh there upon becamr the Regent and has functioned since as constitutional Head of the State.

Today , the Constituent Assembly having, meet the time has come for the people's representatives to make the fundamantal decision about the fiture position of the present dynasty.

It is clear that this dynesty can no, longer exercise authority on the basis of an old discredited Treaty. During my trial for sedition in the "Quit Kashmir" movement . I had clarified the attitude of my party when I said:

"The futuer constitional set.up in the State of jammu and Kashmir cannot derive authorityfrom the old source relationship which was expiring and was bound to en soon. The set -up could only rest on the active will the people of the State
 

S.A.T.A

New Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
2,569
Likes
1,560
1) Temporary provisions with respect to the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution,-


This preamble to the Article 370 of the indian constitution makes for an interesting reading.The text itself states that this is sought to be 'Temporary provision' and not a permanent one,even the drafters were clearly aware of extra constitutional nature of the provisions of the Article 370 hence sought to emphasize its temporary nature,60 odd years beat any definition of 'temporary'(constitutional or otherwise).

your statement regarding jammu and Kashmir state constitution not being a sovereign equal is proved wrong by the second line of text of the preamble."Notwithstanding anything in this constitution",indicates that all the provisions enunciated in the Article 370 stand on their own authority 'notwithstanding' anything to the contrary as it may be expressed in the Indian constitution.The article further reads that the dominion(union govt)can only legislate laws only on matters that have been listed in the Instrument of accession as coming under the dominion.However there is a condition that the state govt will have be 'consulted'(meaning state govt must be notified before the center drafts a law and its approval is required before it applies)

Clearly this establishes the State legislature of J&K as a sovereign equal to the National parliament,because no similar provision exists with regards to state legislatures in other states.Even Sheikh Abdullah clearly notes in his address that Kashmir is being treated differently from the rest of the Indian states.Si it is disingenuous to suggest that J&K does not enjoy a more than equal status among the federal units on the union.I have already sates why it is wrong and incomplete to compare the spacial provisions of the Article 371(and its various sub clauses) with the 'temporary provisions of the Article 370,while the former deals with insignificant matters of peripheral interest,the latter defines the very foundation of the relationship between the State and people of J&K and its status in the indian union,essentially apples and oranges......

What is the need to 'renegotiate' when the Article 370,when its abrogated, will be replaced by the provisions of Article 238(now replaced by the Constitution[Seventh Amendment] Act,whose application with regards to j&K is forbidden in the text of the article 370)that governs all state center relations in the indian constitution,all matters regarding federal autonomy are clearly enunciated in later Article and is more than sufficient to take care of J&K's legitimate socio-economic concerns.There are more twenty odd state who are bound by this principle,are they all worse off because of it,haven't these states developed under these conditions.

your points regarding 'COIN' are deeply appreciated and they are insightful,but i don't see why scrapping of article 370 and restoring the suzerainty of the indian constitution will hinder those approach,on the contrary they only strengthen it.
 
Last edited:

anoop_mig25

New Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
5,807
Likes
3,152
Country flag
sorry mates for distrubing in middle but today i found joke of the day i hope ajtr has not posted this yet

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/will-allow-liquor-sale-in-free-kashmir-geelani/700928/0

Fri Oct 22 2010 New Delhi:

Hardline Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani on Thursday announced that when Kashmir got "azadi", strict prohibition would be enforced for members of the majority community — Muslims — "but if minorities feel they want to have liquor, they would be allowed it as their right".
"The system of justice in an independent Jammu and Kashmir would be such that liquor would be prohibited for the Muslim majority, but if minorities feel they want to have liquor they would be allowed it as their right," he said, adding that only those whose religion it permits would be allowed to drink.

Speaking here at a conference, "Azaadi — The Only Way", organised by the Committee for Release of Political Prisoners, Geelani said 'independent' Kashmir would be a secular state so that "if a member of a majority Muslim community accidentally breaks a liquor bottle of a minority member, the system will pay the penalty for the damage. Or else, the offender will have to pay penalty for the damage". :emot15::emot15::emot15::emot15::emot100:
independent kashmir would be secular plus minorities would be allowed to drink if their religion allows. few days back he had said independent kashmir would be Islamic country . he said a muslim dominated state of J&K within india was like fish without water
 

ajtr

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
12,038
Likes
724
U.S. rules out mediation in Kashmir


Rejecting fresh calls by Pakistan seeking its intervention on the Kashmir issue, the US has made it clear that it was for India and Pakistan to find a resolution through "additional dialogue".

The American position was affirmed a day after Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi insisted that U.S. play an active role in the resolution of Kashmir and other disputes in the south Asian region.

"We recognise the importance of Kashmir to both countries. We absolutely want to see tensions eased and ultimately a resolution to the situation in Kashmir," State Department spokesman P. J. Crowley said at a news conference at the Foreign Press Center here.

"That we believe needs to come through additional dialogue between Pakistan and India. We have not been asked by both countries to play a particular role," he said.

"But this is the reason why, for a number of reasons we continue to encourage further dialogue between India and Pakistan," Mr. Crowley said in response to a question.

Mr. Qureshi, who is in Washington for the U.S.-Pak Strategic Dialogue, had raised the Kashmir issue at a conference, asking the U.S. to help in its resolution.

"It is in the interest of lasting peace, stability and development of the region that the US works for the resolution of disputes in South Asia. This has to begin with justice for the Kashmiri people," Mr. Qureshi said.

Mr. Qureshi also spoke about the recent unrest in Jammu and Kashmir and said "any person of conscience cannot ignore the use of brute force against defenceless Kashmiri youth."

"In this unfolding tragedy over 100 Kashmiris have lost their lives in the past three months, many of them teenagers," he said.

Mr. Qureshi was responding to a question at an event jointly organised by the prestigious Brookings Institute and Asia Society.

His comments came hours after the third round of the Strategic Dialogue between the U.S. and Pakistan began.

Contending that Pakistan is "deeply interested" in a peaceful and stable South Asia, Mr. Qureshi claimed that the prospect, however, "is in danger again by the recent events in Kashmir."

The Pakistani Foreign Minister's comments have come despite U.S.' repeated assertion that Kashmir is a bilateral issue between India and Pakistan and it has to be solved by the two countries.

In response to another question, Mr. Qureshi said Pakistan wants good neighbourly ties with India.

"Pakistan wants a very good neighbourly relationship with India. What we are saying is we have outstanding issues.

Both sides have agreed that dialogue is the only sensible way forward," he said.

Keywords: Shah Mahmood Qureshi, P J Crowley, India-Pakistan, bilateral issues
 

anoop_mig25

New Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
5,807
Likes
3,152
Country flag
Kashmir as an independent state is likely to end up being a burden. Landlocked states with treacherous terrain but also with concentrated areas of arable land suited for cash crops, that have no industrial pedigree, or strong institutions, that have been centers of sustained violence with at least one or more generations born into an active state of war and where illiteracy is rife have a very poor chance of succeeding. This combined with a harrowing history of exogenous jihad and a predominantly Muslim population which has been covertly pushed toward a more virulent alien interpretation of Islam is recipe for disaster; one that will affect India the most. I say this not out of bias for or against anyone, but based on documented facts.
i do not think independent jammu and kashmir would be burden because countries like saudia Aribia or any Arab countries those with flush with petro-dollars would provide necessary help so that independent state of jammu&kashmir survives . or china would provide hard cash to keep americans out and american would provide cash so as get their military base /keep chinse out/or to carry out their illegal activities specially against china.

Note = this jammu and kashmir inlcudes parts of pok as well . but as we know pak wont let its part free so remaining part would hardly survive i think so and even if remaining India part becomes free pak army would marching within few hrs after geelain invites them .

By the way, have you ever gone through the J&K study on www.peacepolls.org ? Go through the pdf study and you will understand the priorities of the people and what they think. Although the study is around 2009, It should reflect the the sentiments more or less on the ground eve now.
why isn`t any poll conducted in Pok ever:angry_10::angry_10:

i still think integrate economically j&k with india i think problem would be automatically solved. win away stone throwing youths with job in state once on job they would settle in their life and once settled i think they would find it hard to violence . even by some means get them job in different parts of india (yes off course after doing some part of their job in j&k state).
hope it would change their mindset
 

ajtr

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
12,038
Likes
724
Dangerous Islamisation of Kashmir


By Prakash Nanda

--It has become now quite routine for the civilian regime and elites in Kashmir to effortlessly raise their fingers at the Indian armed forces for all their troubles, thus providing fuels to the extremists and separatists
---Needless to say that almost all the separatists and terrorist, including the so-called moderate separatist elements like Huriyat Conference, belong to the school of Muslimness.They have nothing to do with India.
--The political Islam has made firmer roots in the valley. The Pakistani support and assistance to the cause has greatly facilitated the cause.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has just returned from Kashmir. He appealed for peace and requested the "separatists" to return to the negotiating table. He held a series of conferences with the officials and political leaders. And as expected, he announced over Rs. 1000 crore sops to the state. Importantly, to score some misplaced points, he threatened the armed forces to behave properly in Kashmir, forgetting the fact that but for those forces he, or any Indian Prime Minister, would not have been able to land in the Srinagar valley.

But one fails to understand what did the Prime Minister achieve overall from his two-day Kashmir visit in concrete terms? Well, the media, both national and international, went overboard. The press in Pakistan, where our homer minister and foreign secretary are heading later this month, got enough material to comment on. But the separatists have not been impressed. And what is worse, the security forces have been greatly demoralized. It has become now quite routine for the civilian regime and elites in Kashmir to effortlessly raise their fingers at the Indian armed forces for all their troubles, thus providing fuels to the extremists and separatists. And on the flimsiest of pretexts, officials of the military and paramilitary forces are being framed and suspended.

Ironically, the Prime Minister has not deemed it fit to travel to other, and in a sense more turbulent, part of the country – the North East, particularly Manipur and Nagaland. People there have been facing a blockade for more than two months now. The government has totally mishandled the Naga issue, of late. If any part of the country needed the presence of the Prime Minister to assure the affected people and encourage their morale, it is North-East. But, Singh and his advisors do not think so. And that is perhaps due to the fact that a visit to North East will not attract headlines the way a visit to Kashmir will.

I have no problem with the "news-worthiness" of Kashmir. But what is worrying is that the central government and the dominant section within the strategic community in the country find it politically incorrect to reveal the real problem in the Kashmir valley from the viewpoint of India's national interests. And that real problem is the growing Islamisation of the valley, which, in turn, makes any negotiated settlement of the Kashmir issue almost impossible. An "Islamic Kashmir" will have nothing to do with India. Let me explain this point.

Over the years, Kashmir has been witnessing what Bangladeshi scholar Abu Taher Salahuddin Ahmed says three principal trends – Indianness, Kashmiriness and Muslimness. The Indianness has been propagated by the federal forces of the country, be it the central government or national parties like the Congress and BJP. However, the problem in the state is due to the tussle between those believing in Kashmiriness and those loyal to Muslimness. Kashmiriness is an offshoot of the much talked about Kashmiriyat, which, while coexisting with Indianness, talks of inclusive or composite identity, binding all groups together and not offending any section. No wonder why despite being a Muslim-majority area, beef-eating, until recently, was virtually non-existent in the valley.

Of course, some scholars now point out that there were always differences between Muslims and Hindus (essentially Kashmiri Pundits) in their interpretations of the concept of Kashmiriyat. But those believing in the concept did promote coexistence. Majority of the Kashmiri Muslims, therefore, had no problems with the Hindus or for that matter with the Buddhists. And the important factor key to the success of the Kashmiriyat was the fact that overwhelming majority of the Kashmiri Muslims believed in Sufism or what is said the "Rishi tradition" that believed in saint and shrine worships. Of course, it was greatly facilitated by the fact that as was the case in other parts of the subcontinent, Muslims were essentially converts from the fold of Hinduism.

In contrast, the Muslimness always advocated the exclusive concepts in the valley. Promoted by the Wahhabi and Ahl-i-Hadith sects, this school relies more on the authority of the Quran and Hadith and totally opposed to the concept saints and shrine worships. This tradition or school has always been in minority in Kashmir, but it has been there always. It was behind the oraganisations like Muslim Conference and Kashmir Jamaat (KJ).

Needless to say that almost all the separatists and terrorist, including the so-called moderate separatist elements like Huriyat Conference, belong to the school of Muslimness. They have nothing to do with India. They believe in the theory of "Kashmir for Muslims". Their essential argument is that they cannot coexist in a Hindu-dominated India.

Interestingly, these elements became active in Kashmir only after the 1979 Iranian revolution. It was after 1979 that one heard more and more of "liberation of Kashmir" and "Islamic revolution". These elements became more vocal in politics also and formed many small political outfits. In September 1985, twelve such outfits came together to form the Muslim United Front (MUF). Soon the MUF claimed to provide an alternative to the National Conference of Farooq Abdullah on the ground that he "sold out" Kashmiris' interests in the Accord with the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi.

Since then, the political Islam has made firmer roots in the valley. The Pakistani support and assistance to the cause has greatly facilitated the cause. But what has really helped the Political Islam in the valley is the virtual politics of appeasement on the part of the central and state governments to the separatists. The likes of Atal Behari Vajpayee and Manmohan Singh have wrongly believed that by pandering to the demands of the Huriyat and civil right activists, the situation will improve. But appeasement will never work with forces of "Muslimness"; it will rather embolden them and strengthen the cause of "Kashmir for Muslims". Did not we hear the likes of Mehbooba Mufti and Omar Abdullah even saying during the agitation over Amarnath Yatra last year that Kashmir must not compromise its Muslim character?

Fortunately, even today the majority of the people in the state would like to remain part of India, as evident by the recent opinion poll, conducted by Chatham House (UK) on either side of the Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir. The poll said that showed that only 2 per cent of the people of J&K want to be part of Pakistan. As many as 58 per cent of the 3,774 polled, in J&K and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK), are ready to accept the LoC as a permanent "soft border" — an idea dating back to the famous "Simla Agreement" of 1972 between Indira Gandhi and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.

That being the case, it is high time the Indian Prime Minister, whichever party he or she may belong to, stopped inviting the separatist leaders to the negotiating table. Because, any amount of concessions will not satisfy them. They just need to be ignored and their militant supporters need to be disciplined. They do not represent the majority. If they are imposing the so-called bandhs and people are listening to them it is mainly because of the fear they have generated in the people's hearts and the self-imposed helplessness of our security forces.

The Prime Minister and the Chief Minister need to appeal directly to the people through good governance. And more important, our secular Muslim leaders from the mainstream must be encouraged to visit Kashmir more often to impart the message that Muslims are more secure in India than in Pakistan. That is the best way to fight the Islamisastion of the valley.
 
Last edited:

Energon

DFI stars
New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
1,199
Likes
767
Country flag
Energon you have the right o have an opinion and even express it,i respect that and similarly extend it to others,but your considered opinion is not the absolute fact,your determination to project indian security forces as having laid siege to the valley(without a casus belli) or committing unrestricted gross HR violation,are unsubstantiated and hence unacceptable as ground facts.Your sources,if i may dare say,have been previously proved to be not entirely unbiased and hence will not attach too much premium to their views accept that they have an opinion and have the right to have it(i certainly cant speak for the International community,but i couldn't care less)
I must reiterate that the condition of the Kashmir valley as I've previously described is by no means an opinion, but an unequivocal documented fact recorded by multiple first hand sources of varying backgrounds (military, indigenous, political, objective-external etc.). Not all of these sources can be incorrect or hold the same strain of bias. There is simply no way to deny any of this for the sake of assuming a particular political stance.
The reason I'm so adamant in protecting my stance is twofold. One, an iatrogenic humanitarian disaster of such proportions should never be denied no matter how embarrassing or "damaging" by a society that is truly free. India may have many problems and impediments; freedom to convey a bitter truth is not one of them. This is a very rare achievement for a society, particularly for an under developed one (where it is difficult to even appreciate this quality) and hence this basic covenant should never be broken for it's own sake.
Second, the cycle of violence involving the military establishment itself is currently one of the primary accelerant for the instability in the valley. Denying this very overt fact just makes matters worse and protracts the self made obstacle. This seems rather pointless.

I have always maintained that the initial siege was very much warranted after the onset of the large scale Pakistan backed insurgency in 1989 (albeit on account of the rigged elections). Recent military literature from Iraq also shows that an overwhelming military suppression is the best way to respond to an exogenous insurgency. So there was certainly a casus belli to the initial military operation. That however does not discount the fact that a long term military occupation in the absence of an effective political strategy leads to the "cure" becoming the primary "poison". In fact I invite you to highlight examples where this hasn't happened in the past century and explain why you think Kashmir is an exception.

S.A.T.A said:
If you and i agree(and Energon will certainly agree)that better people to people contact and making greater resources available for employment generating industries,better education better infrastructure etc are the meas to bring normalcy to the state and foster peace and goodwill
Yes, I am in total agreement of this hypothesis.
S.A.T.A said:
Rescinding Article 370 will not substantially alter the security challenges Indian faces with regards to the security in the state
This is the part where we disagree. While it would be great to simply abrogate Article 370 it is simply an unfeasible venture. I do not see how you can conclude that doing so would not alter the security challenge.
The populace of the Kashmir valley are nowhere near to accepting such an impromptu decision, for the significance of this act with the misguided "ethnic quotient" is still far too great. Heck a relatively benign Amarnath land grant triggered an anti established backlash that has snowballed into a movement that has as yet to be pacified. An annulment of the Article 370 would result in all out chaos.
ejazr said:
Development is best achieved when it is ground up. That is the Centre should work in colaboration with local partners. This means going to J&K officials, down to autonomus regions of Jammu Ladakh and eventually for real tangible development to take place at Local government level or Panchayat level. Ofcourse with big projects like Hydel power projects, highways and roads and trains, the centre can acquire land from the state and participate in these projects but again by hiring locals and with partnership with locals to create interdependance with them
This is far more realistic an alternative.
anoop_mig25 said:
i do not think independent jammu and kashmir would be burden because countries like saudia Aribia or any Arab countries those with flush with petro-dollars would provide necessary help so that independent state of jammu&kashmir survives . or china would provide hard cash to keep americans out and american would provide cash so as get their military base /keep chinse out/or to carry out their illegal activities specially against china.
On the contrary, look into every example thus far of a fledgling nation (especially one where Islam is the main religion) which has seen an influx of Saudi Arabian petrodollars of "support", or Chinese patronage for the sake of geopolitics, and better yet a combination of both. Point out one instance thus far that hasn't resulted in a categorical disaster, and which isn't a burden today upon the rest of the civilized world.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Articles

Top