J20 Stealth Fighter

sayareakd

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PEOPLE.!!! Atleast chiness have done this..! They have showed this to world that it there time!!! Just one question...When will our AMCA will fly first time??? Any expectations???
well funding has given for tech demo, now DRDO is making it, then they will submit project report with intended budget to GOI, then again funds will be given for development of AMCA, then prototypes will fly. First one will fly within 5 years.

Because of the valuable experience gain from the LCA project and infrastructure is step up. GOI is not in any mood to disbanded the LCA team, that is why the MCA.
 

black eagle

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PEOPLE.!!! Atleast chiness have done this..! They have showed this to world that it's there time!!! Just one question...When will our AMCA will fly first time??? Any expectations?????
I think the Air chief declared at the LCA IOC that the AMCA would have its first flight somewhere around 2016....
 

Gujjar_boy

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well funding has given for tech demo, now DRDO is making it, then they will submit project report with intended budget to GOI, then again funds will be given for development of AMCA, then prototypes will fly. First one will fly within 5 years.

Because of the valuable experience gain from the LCA project and infrastructure is step up. GOI is not in any mood to disbanded the LCA team, that is why the MCA.

yeah!! You are are right! Funding is one of the most important Factor...I hope we will see first maiden flight of our AMCA in next 5 years....And i want it to be more leathel and stealthear then this J-20...Fingers crossed...lets hope for the best...!
 

Gujjar_boy

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I think the Air chief declared at the LCA IOC that the AMCA would have its first flight somewhere around 2016....
I don't know about this news...Any way thanks for telling i hope it will fly with next 5 years...:)
 

sayareakd

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Plus now with JXX (love the XX on the J) out and flying, it would be give some thing to AMCA team to fasten up the project.
 

arya

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I think the Air chief declared at the LCA IOC that the AMCA would have its first flight somewhere around 2016....
right sir but can you tell me where be china in 2016

are you sure 2016 well if he is saying 2016 then it means 2020 at least
 

arya

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well funding has given for tech demo, now DRDO is making it, then they will submit project report with intended budget to GOI, then again funds will be given for development of AMCA, then prototypes will fly. First one will fly within 5 years.

Because of the valuable experience gain from the LCA project and infrastructure is step up. GOI is not in any mood to disbanded the LCA team, that is why the MCA.
well dont you think we are living in dream while china is moving ahead

that time when we have to increase our speed we have to catch china as soon as possible

do it now or it now t will be too late
 

joe81

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All the stuff made in China are junk as has been pointed in the Western Media. We are unnecessarily going ga ga over J20. It might just be a toy when compared to PAKFA. Remember the Russian and US avionics have proved themselves in many wars and China has not fought a sigle war in the recent times with all these avionics
 

badguy2000

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All the stuff made in China are junk as has been pointed in the Western Media. We are unnecessarily going ga ga over J20. It might just be a toy when compared to PAKFA. Remember the Russian and US avionics have proved themselves in many wars and China has not fought a sigle war in the recent times with all these avionics
It is agreed entirly...so wash and have a good sleep...whatever west medias and MR. Joe81 are absolutely right!
 

Parthy

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No matter how do they got the technology and design..

Normally Western nation's Hi-fi technologies are forbidden to the east!!

At least they've got indigenous stealth fighter without the help from US and other western nations that has to be appreciated.. We should study this tactics from them and implement our quality process for a better outcome...

It takes time to rank the fighter.. Hats off to the Chinese efforts
 

fulcrum

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Seems like it is heavily borrowed from the J-10 program. Given the fact that the chinese have done something like this before(Mig-21 to J-8) this is not very surprising. A stealthier planform, much larger, twin engined J-10.

AMCA? Lets first get the LCA to FOC. First flight of AMCA or whatever paper plane is atleast, ATLEAST 5 years away. And given the speed of ADA/DRDO and the usual delays, add another 2 more years to that. Then add another 7-10 years before it enters production. Best case scenario 12 years, realistic scenario is 17 years from now.
 
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Armand2REP

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The reliance on those huge canards for flight stability kills any chance the J-20 has of being stealthy. It is like an expanded J-10 with the engines encapsulated in a conformal body. Control surfaces are far too exaggerated, no weapon bays installed. Tech demo...
 

fulcrum

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Yeah, those canards and the basic shape is a dead give away from where this plane got its 'genes' from.

And ofcourse the big question, what is a canard doing in a stealth fighter anyway. And no sight of bays. My guess is they will drop the canards and incorporate the bays in their later prototypes. It would be interesting to see how they will compensate for the canards if at all they will drop it later on.
 
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Minghegy

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The canards of J20 are almost at the same plane of main wings, so the wave of overlying reflection is very small.

In fact stealth is not a mysterious tech, I believe to detect a stealth craft is not a matter for China/U.S./Russia, maybe even India and French could detect stealth.

In the below pictures is the stealth detector of China, it calculates the fluctuations of air background waves, then draw the track of stealth craft. Several years ago most cellphone stations in China already equipped the detector, that means enemy's stealth craft can be detected in Chinese territory, unless enemy destroy numberless cellphone stations, it sounds like a superiority of home ground.

So stealth tech is only mysterious for non-advanced military country.

 
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sayareakd

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The canards of J20 are almost at the same plane of main wings, so the wave of overlying reflection is very small.

In fact stealth is not a mysterious tech, I believe to detect a stealth craft is not a matter for China/U.S./Russia, maybe even India and French could detect stealth.

In the below pictures is the stealth detector of China, it calculates the fluctuations of air background waves, then draw the track of stealth craft. Several years ago most cellphone stations in China already equipped the detector, that means enemy's stealth craft can be detected in Chinese territory, unless enemy destroy numberless cellphone stations, it sounds like a superiority of home ground.

So stealth tech is only mysterious for non-advanced military country.

come again ??? you are saying cell phone towers will detect stealth fighters......
 
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http://www.spacewar.com/reports/China_stealth_jet_upstages_US_defence_chiefs_visit_999.html

China stealth jet upstages US defence chief's visit


US Defense Secretary Robert Gates on Wednesday toured China's nuclear command centre to end what he called a "very successful" visit -- one upstaged by a bold display of Beijing's advanced weaponry.

Gates got a rare look at the Second Artillery Corps headquarters outside Beijing, which oversees nuclear and missile forces -- a stop meant to underscore China's readiness to recast uneasy military ties.

The Pentagon chief said he had "very candid conversations" during his tour of the facility in Qinghe and spoke to Chinese officers about nuclear strategy.

Chinese defence ministry official Guan Youfei was cited by state media as saying the tour had been organised at Gates' request, and was part of efforts to build "mutual trust and eliminate misunderstandings and miscalculations".

Gates' four-day trip to China was designed to promote a more cooperative relationship with the country's top brass before President Hu Jintao visits Washington next week.

But instead the test flight of a new Chinese stealth fighter stole the show.

As Gates met Hu and other top officials on Tuesday, Chinese state media published photos that were said to show the debut flight of the J-20, the country's first radar-evading combat aircraft.

The timing of the flight appeared to be a snub to Washington, fuelling the sense of a military rivalry despite positive statements from both governments aimed at defusing tensions over US arms sales to Taiwan and maritime disputes.

The incident illustrated the Asian juggernaut's confidence and also raised questions about the role of its military, as a senior US defence official said Hu and other top civilians apparently were unaware of the test flight.

Gates in the past has described the Chinese military as taking a harder line towards Washington than the country's civilian leaders, suggesting the generals have undermined efforts to improve defence ties.

But on Wednesday, he played down any tension over the test flight, or any possibility of a rift between the People's Liberation Army and the Communist leadership.

"The civilian leadership seemed surprised by the test and assured me that it had nothing to do with my visit," Gates told reporters as he visited the Great Wall following the command centre tour.

"What came across to me was that both the civilian and military leadership seem determined to carry this relationship further and to build upon it," he said.

"Are there those who have issues with it? Possibly. But I certainly didn't meet them on my trip."

Guan, the Chinese defence ministry official, insisted the modernisation of China's military hardware was "not aimed at any other country or any specific target".

The Pentagon chief meanwhile characterised his talks in Beijing as part of a "step-by-step process" to build stronger defence ties.

Gates is the second Pentagon chief to tour the Second Artillery Corps headquarters. His predecessor, Donald Rumsfeld, visited the site in 2005. The Chinese have rebuffed US requests to tour some other sensitive command posts.

General Xu Caihou, vice chairman of the military commission, made an equivalent visit to US Strategic Command in 2009 as part of a tour of American bases.

Gates said he had invited General Jing Zhiyuan, commander of the Second Artillery Corps, to visit US Strategic Command and the general accepted.

Gates, who used to travel to Beijing out of the public eye when he served as a top CIA officer, described seeing the Mutianyu section of the Great Wall as a "a great, fitting end to what I consider a very successful visit."

Gates was headed to Tokyo on Wednesday, and then Seoul on Friday, for meetings focused on North Korea.

earlier related report
Gates meets Hu as US, China play down rivalry
Beijing (AFP) Jan 11, 2011 - US Defense Secretary Robert Gates met Chinese President Hu Jintao on Tuesday as their two countries attempt to defuse military tensions before Hu makes a key visit to Washington next week.

The pair shook hands as flash bulbs popped in the Great Hall of the People in central Beijing and then took pains to highlight improvements in uneasy Sino-US military
ties, suspended a year ago over US arms sales to Taiwan.

Hu said the visit by Gates, his first since 2007, symbolised the "new progress" in defence relations and said the Pentagon chief's meetings had allowed the two sides to exchange ideas "in a very candid manner".

Gates in turn expressed greetings from US President Barack Obama, whom Hu will meet in Washington on January 19, and said his meetings had resulted in advances toward the "long-term improvement" of military ties.

"We believe that President Hu Jintao's visit next week will be a major step forward in the US-China relationship," Gates said earlier at talks with Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi.

His spokesman Hong Lei said China hoped the two sides would "take effective and concrete measures to safeguard the political basis for military-to-military relations so that they will develop on a sound and stable track."

However, the Pentagon chief's visit so far has produced no breakthroughs on sensitive defence issues and no sign from Beijing that it was ready to overlook Washington's sale of billions of dollars in arms and weaponry to Taipei.

"China's position has been clear and consistent. We are against it," the defence minister, General Liang Guanglie, said Monday, referring to the US deals with self-ruled Taiwan.

With an increasingly powerful China pushing to assert itself in the Pacific and the Americans vying to retain a dominant role in the region, US officials are anxious to build up a dialogue to avoid potential crises.

Washington's military relations with China have lagged behind trade and diplomatic ties, and Gates hopes to nudge the Chinese towards an approach similar to Cold War-era exchanges between the Americans and the Soviets.

But Gates' appeals over the past four years for a permanent security dialogue have failed to persuade Chinese generals, who resent the arms deals with Taiwan and the US naval presence in the South China Sea.

After Monday's talks, the Chinese backed more military exchanges but stopped short of endorsing a US proposal for a "strategic dialogue" focusing on nuclear, missile defence, space and cyber-weaponry, agreeing only to study the idea.

Gates -- a former CIA director -- will get a rare glimpse on Wednesday of the Second Artillery Corps headquarters, the command centre for China's nuclear and missile arsenal.

China's pursuit of advanced anti-ship missiles and other weapons have US officials worried, seeing it as a threat to America's naval reach in the Pacific.

The United States, however, has little leverage as China flexes its newfound economic and military muscle. Washington is grappling with mounting fiscal pressures, cutting back some weapons programmes while waging a costly war in Afghanistan.

The rivalry between the Asian juggernaut and the stretched superpower is fuelling an arms race, though Chinese military leaders insist the modernisation effort is purely for the country's defence.

In response to China's military investments, Gates said Sunday before arriving that he had proposed funding for new radar, unmanned naval aircraft and other weaponry.

Japan last month labelled Beijing's military build-up a global "concern", citing its increased assertiveness in the East and South China Seas.

Gates said earlier his discussions would cover recent tensions on the Korean peninsula, including China's role in helping to ease a crisis that began after Pyongyang's deadly shelling of a South Korean island in November.

After his visit to China, Gates heads to Tokyo on Wednesday and Seoul on Friday for meetings focused on the Korean crisis.
 

SpArK

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China's 'stealth fighter' flies – brown trouser time, or not?


Analysis The death-tech beat has spoken of little else but China's new "stealth fighter" for some weeks now – and yesterday, funnily enough just as the US Defense Secretary was visiting Beijing, the J-20 (or whatever it may turn out to be officially called) finally took to the air.

The People's Republic is making no real effort to keep the plane secret – interested bloggers and photographers have been able to watch the plane in ground trials unhindered from the fence line at the Chengdu test site for weeks. Needless to say, vids of yesterday's first flight are widely available:



As will be obvious from the clips and many online pictures of the new plane, the J-20 (or J-whatever, as the craft's official number has not been announced) has been designed to be "low observable" – that is, difficult to see on radar, at least from certain angles.

Such a shape, combined with many other rather more difficult technologies (radar-absorbent coatings, heat dump into the fuel tanks to lessen infrared signature, complex frequency-hopping invisible radars and communications, etc, etc), offers so-called "stealth" capability. This doesn't mean that a plane is totally invisible to the enemy, just that – hopefully – it can detect and strike airborne opponents while they are still unable to get a lock on it. Alternatively, when trying to penetrate an enemy's groundbased air-defence system, a stealth plane may be able to avoid detection for part or all of its mission by flying carefully planned routes and/or cooperating with supporting electronic-warfare jammer aircraft.

There's no particular indication that China has any of the necessary supplementary technologies to create a true stealth capability. Furthermore, the J-20's shape indicates that its low-observability on radar would probably be much more limited in angle than is the case with operational stealth planes such as the US F-22 Raptor and B-2 Spirit (there's very little effort to stealth up the exhausts compared to the US designs, for instance, and the intakes and control surfaces look likely to be a lot more visible from a lot more places on the sphere of possible viewpoints around the aircraft).

Then, the J-20 is plainly large and cumbersome, and appears to lack thrust vectoring. One possible theorised effect of stealth design on air combat is that opposing stealth fighters – unable to lock each other up for long-range missile duels – would find themselves tackling one another in close-in dogfights using such tools as helmet-mounted sights and agile short-ranged missiles able to attack targets well off the launching fighter's line of flight. The cumbersome J-20 would probably suffer a gruesome fate in close with the highly manoeuvrable Raptor, or even the more affordable F-35 Lightning II.

Indeed, as China almost certainly can't yet build a Raptor-style stealthy targeting radar (and thus J-20 style jets would be unable to use long-range missiles while remaining unseen) the J-20 would probably be defeated even by ordinary Western fighters such as the F-15, Rafale and Eurofighter. If it lit up its radar to shoot at them from afar, they would instantly detect it and win the fight with long-ranging missiles such as the forthcoming Meteor. If the J-20 remained silent and stealthy in a meeting engagement it would encounter enemy fighters at short range, where their manoeuvrability and dogfighting weapons would defeat it easily.

If the J-20 has a military purpose (rather than merely being a demonstration/propaganda/industrial-subsidy project as is probably the reality) it would be to act more as a bomber than a fighter – to try to slip undetected past opposing air defences and strike at key targets: enemy bases, aircraft carriers, patrolling AWACS planes and such like. But this is highly unrealistic in today's Pacific; the whole Far East is a chain of US allies from Japan down to Australia, thickly sown with powerful American and allied air forces able to sweep the skies with radar and infrared-search-and-track (IRST) scanners, both ground and airborne. The seas are full of dangerous warships – US supercarriers each equivalent to a mobile Taiwan, Aegis air-defence vessels able to sweep hundreds of miles of sky, warships and submarines able to launch thousands of cruise missiles at targets far inland.



O noes! China has finally got to where the US was in 1985, and the UK was in about 2000! Surely time for a big military panic?


A force of J-20s would find this hedge impenetrable: as soon as they penetrated to any depth, the "stealth" planes would be showing a non-stealthy aspect to radars on their flank or behind them, or would find their hot exhausts picked up by US/allied IRST. The lumbering Chinese jets would then be pounced upon and eliminated. If somehow the J-20 is as capable as a Raptor and the People's Republic should manage to inflict any damage on US forces or their allies, the responding shower of seaborne cruise missiles would wipe China's air capability off the map – leaving Beijing a stark choice between humiliation and suicidal escalation to nuclear ballistic-missile strikes on the US mainland.


The reality is that western global hegemony over the seas and the skies above them would be pretty much unchallenged even if the J-20 actually was a rival to western stealth technology. America alone, even following the just-announced reining in of defence spending, intends in the near future to field a force of more than 2,000 genuine modern stealth warplanes backed by many hundreds more modern combat aircraft of other types. A thousand more stealth fighters (F-35s) are set to be ordered by US allies worldwide, and these allies also dispose of yet thousands more highly capable, modern non-stealth planes.

The USA and her allies in the 2020s will have more than 3,000 genuine operational stealth fighters and many thousands more highly capable, sophisticated non-stealth aircraft plus warships, cruise missiles etc in profusion. China and Russia, by that point, will probably not have any substantial numbers of real operational stealth aircraft at all – both nations have only just got early prototypes flying, putting them where the USA was in the 1980s and Europe was a decade ago. Both nations together possess no more than 3,000 functioning combat aircraft, mostly obsolete, all poorly maintained, and in Russia's case at least, flown by pilots who log no more than a few hours a year. The Russian and Chinese navies are in even worse shape.

Even if Russia and China could cooperate effectively (they can't or won't) and had some reason to take on the West (so cutting their own economies off at the knees) – even if Russian and Chinese technology and military readiness was equivalent or superior to Western (it plainly isn't anywhere near) – the west would still win a conventional air/sea war by simple weight of numbers. In the case of Russia or China acting alone, the fight would be even more one-sided.

The usual suspects are, of course, furiously bigging-up the J-20 as a possible menace. The erratic Carlo Kopp of Australia, famous for predicting that terrorists would be fabricating electromagnetic pulse bombs in garage workshops by now, considers that the J-20 amply justifies a much larger fleet of F-22 Raptors. (No surprise there: no matter what happens, Kopp generally considers that the answer is more F-22s.) Retired US air force generals are pushing this line too, of course. The hugely bloated western military aerospace industry, its revenues sapped by economic conditions and a belated focus on the ground troops who are actually fighting real wars in southwest Asia, will naturally seize upon even the flimsiest excuse to plead for yet more billions to be spent moving the western state of the air-combat art still further onward – no matter that it is decades ahead of any possible opposition.



Bootnote

*As of today, China together is to spend less than a quarter of what the US spends on defence. Even lackadaisical, can't-really-be-bothered-seeing- US defences Europeans are big players compared to China; France and the UK together comfortably outspend the People's Republic.
 
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p2prada

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The canards of J20 are almost at the same plane of main wings, so the wave of overlying reflection is very small.

In fact stealth is not a mysterious tech, I believe to detect a stealth craft is not a matter for China/U.S./Russia, maybe even India and French could detect stealth.

In the below pictures is the stealth detector of China, it calculates the fluctuations of air background waves, then draw the track of stealth craft. Several years ago most cellphone stations in China already equipped the detector, that means enemy's stealth craft can be detected in Chinese territory, unless enemy destroy numberless cellphone stations, it sounds like a superiority of home ground.

So stealth tech is only mysterious for non-advanced military country.

You got the concept wrong. This thing you are showing is a copy of a Czech system that was denied to you by the US in early 2000, so you went ahead and copied it. This was the same time the Israeli Phalcon was denied to you too.

It is an ELINT system and is used to process signals sent by aircraft. Now it is unknown if you are capable of passively tracking a flying bird based on signals alone. The French are trying that with the Spectra and they are still not successful. The Americans have similar programs. So, you guys doing the same is not technologically feasible at least as of now. However detecting a stealth jet is possible.

The logic is simple. Signals emitters consist of 3 things. The radar, jammer and communication equipment. If even one of these are below standards, then there is no point in fielding a stealth jet. Without good ECCM systems or even ECCCM systems then your aircraft is short of steath.

But in a fifth gen aircraft, if the fighters signals emission is well below the clutter region then your system will simply discard any kind of information being captured by it in a nanosecond. Which means it is useless against a F-22 which uses Frequency Hopping Systems that are far too superior to anything any body in the world possess in an aircraft. The algorithm is backed by 2 super computers in the F-22, so no issues there.

Lastly, the system you are talking about is only a signal receiver. Countries like India, US or France have similar systems that are receivers as well as active Jammers. So, we can capture, recognize and also react to threats while you cannot. Check "Samyukta" system. This belongs to the Indian Army and comprises 145 vehicles with 0.6 to 1 MW of jamming power.

It is nothing great unless you are capable of fielding a fully active system. But the F-22 will bypass that because of superior programming and processing.
 

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