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Lerx are good low drag, huge canards are quite bad, especially at Mach speeds.
J20 Stealth Fighter
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black eagle
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Not so hidden dragon – China's J-20 assessed
An in-depth analysis of China's new Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter, which made its first flight on 11 January, and why it may not only represent a threat to Western fighter pilots, but also to the Russian aerospace industry.
First flight of Chengdu J-20
Stealth fighters, it seems, are like London buses – you wait patiently for ages for one to turn up (F-35) and then two (PAK-FA and J-20/J-XX) turn up (almost) at the same time. Pictures, blurred at first, of the J-20 undergoing ground tests, soon gave way to clearer and sharper pics, as well as video of the aircraft's maiden flight on 11 January. One wonders whether the security guards had orders to confiscate cameras and issue the spotters with better quality camera lens.
Across the Internet, the first flight of the J-20 has caused a predictable division into opposing camps. On one side, by hysterical worriers, the aircraft was described as a 'terrifying challenge' that would eat F-22 Raptors for breakfast, and gorge on baby F-35s as light snacks. Meanwhile those on the opposite side dismissed it as a one-off publicity stunt by a country that only knows how to copy stuff and is at least 25 years old. A similar 'not-invented here' attitude that cost US pilots their lives some 70 years ago when the Zero was first encountered.
J-20 in plan view
The truth, as ever, is we don't know. While the shaping of the aircraft aims torwards stealth (although the canard dihedral suggests the designers have sacrified some LO for agility) and its has a mean paint job, the real questions Western (and other) intelligence analysts will be focusing on are the engines, radar and sensor fusion.
Though undoubtedly the electronics and IT industry have taken leaps and bounds since the F-22 was developed (many smart phones now boast a 1Ghz processor and a dual core phone is just about to hit the market) the key is in sensor fusion and in integration. As the US is finding out to its cost with F-35, software is the trickiest part to get right. Though pictures that have surfaced on the Internet show a snazzy cockpit straight out of Battlestar Galactica, it is unclear whether the flying J-20 has this, or whether this is future concept. What can be gleaned from the pictures is the fighter sports a wide-angle holographic HUD.
J-20 glass cockpit
Engines, too, are as of the moment an unknown. Previously reliant on Russia for engines any, development in powerplants would signify a greater leap forward than the pure airframe and some analysts have suggested a new Chinese engine, the Shenyang WS 15 may power the J-20. However, notably the J-20 also uses a divertless supersonic intake (DSI) and is only the third aircraft to sport this feature after the F-35 and JF-17, suggesting that Chinese experience with this technology has been successful so far and it has brought benefits.
Head on view of the J-20 showing the low-observable DSIs.
Radar, too, is currently an unknown although China's extensive espionage efforts also may mean that an AESA radar may be further along the line than previously thought. It has already built up experience with phased-array radars in its AWACS projects.
However, in armament China is now making great strides in guided weapons of all types. Its AMRAAM-type AAM, the PL-12, reportedly outranges the original US weapon. A short-range dogfight missile, the PL-ASR has been described as 'very scary' by one western missile expert. Meanwhile China is reported to be working on a long-range ramjet powered missile – the PL-13 comparable to Europe's MBDA Meteor which, if introduced today, would outrange anything in the (white) US inventory. In short, Western missile experts in private are noticeably rattled by this progress and maintain that any gap in quality between western and Chinese air-to-air weaponry is fast closing.
Graphic of Chinese AAMs (lowest PL-12, nearest PL-ASR/PL-10 top Pl-13).
However, questions still remain. Looking at it through the western prism of how aircraft programmes are developed may not be especially helpful in this case. Is it a one-off, a technology demonstrator, a first prototype or what?
For examples of dead-end projects, one can look at previous Russian fighters – the Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut (a forward-swept wing testbed) and MiG 1.44 – both of which, despite causing a stir in the West, (and are still featured in aerial combat video games as 'boss' enemies due their sexiness) – never made it to frontline service. However, despite this uncertainty there are two main conclusions to be drawn and a third possibility that so far has mostly been missed by analysts.
Sukhoi Su-47 – never made into service – except in videogames"¦
A real flying demonstrator
The first is that the maiden flight of the J-20 means that China is now only the third nation in the world, after the US and Russia, to develop and test-fly a full-size stealth combat aircraft demonstrator. This in itself elevates Chinese aerospace capability and makes it one to watch even more closely in the future. While other countries such as the UK (BAE Systems Replica) West Germany (MBB Lampyridae) and Japan (Mitsubishi ATD-X) have all created full-size stealth aircraft mock-ups – the J-20 – unless it is an epic deception plan (complete with CGI crowds cheering outside the airfield wire) is a real flying article. Lessons learnt here, even if this is a one-off, will certainly feed into future designs and development.
BAE Replica - effectively the UK's entry chip to JSF saying 'we can do stealth ourselves' (BAE Systems)
Strategic surprise
The second is that this has come as a strategic surprise to the West and especially the US. While the existence of a Chinese stealth fighter programme was known (complete with regular CGI renders from the online Photoshop crowd), the prevailing opinion was that it was much further away in the future than is now known. It may be, in fact, that the programme has been accelerated since it has come so fast on the heels of the PAK-FA. So, this will cause the US and allies to reassess timescales for Chinese projects. If it is a prototype for an operational type to be fielded, it may be in service more quickly than people think. The timing, too, (though it may have been a pure accident) of the country's first stealth fighter flying just as the US Secretary of Defense visits only serves to rub salt into the wound 'See – we're catching you up'. In history, amplified by the Cold War, this type of strategic surprise (Sputnik, bomber gaps, Foxbat, ultra-agile dogfight AAMs) has been the spur for US defence R&D. Will this be the case now?
Now that a real aircraft has replaced CGI renders - what will the West's response be?
Stealth on the export market
Finally, and a major point that many have missed, is that this potentially sets up a very interesting future export battle in fifth-generation stealth fighters between China and Russia. Previously for affordable combat aircraft, second tier airforces (and non-US allies) have had more or less one choice – Moscow for MiG-29 and Su-30 fighters.
The emergence of the PAK-FA no doubt last year whetted appetites for a lower cost stealth fighter among those countries for whom F-35 is either (a) too expensive or (b) not available. India has already taken the plunge in this direction despite multiple other ongoing fighter projects (MRCA, Tejas, MiG-29K).
However, in China, export of defence equipment and fighters is now becoming an industrial goal. The JF-17/FC-1 for example is being aimed at the MiG-21 replacement market and with a sticker price of less than $25m is highly attractive to third world airforces with whom China has influence.
The Sino-Pakistani JF-17/FC-1 is now being marketed to Chinese allies in the developing world.
So the emergence of the J-20, perhaps now on a similar development timescale is an exciting prospect for second tier air forces around the world – after years of dreaming about stealth capability – they may have two aircraft to choose from, with China and Russia competing aggressively for their business.
As Professor Keith Hayward, Head of Research, Royal Aeronautical Society, notes in an upcoming analysis of the Chinese aerospace industry for the February issue of Aerospace International magazine: "China's wider commercial relationships with developing world states are also providing useful leverage in forging deals." China, then wants to move from just producing aircraft for its own domestic consumption, and a red-hot product like the J-20 could help it achieve this, far more than any slightly overweight A320 lookalike like the C919. Furthermore, with 'Western-equivalent' Chinese AAMs missiles to 'bundle' it with, any nation buying a J-20 would get an extremely capable weapon system – that will be 'good enough' for the majority of air forces and cheap enough to buy in siginficant numbers.
Boeing's Jim Albaugh too, has noted Chinese export ambitions for its civil and military products: "I think from an export standpoint, we will be increasingly challenged as an aerospace industry because the Chinese are going to be players too."
This then is the real threat assessment for US and western air forces – the fact that potential adversaries all across the world may be fielding low-observable aircraft in the not too distant future. Having two sources for a low-observable fighter (even if they are still behind in capability with the F-22/F-35) will make it much more difficult for the US to restrict their sales to unfriendly nations.
Sukhoi PAK-FA - future sales rival to J-20?
The stealth genie then, is well out of the bottle. Where Western fighter pilots once woke up in cold sweats over the Fulcrum and Flanker, the PAK-FA and J-20 represent another key qualitative edge being eroded.
The real competitor for the J-20, then, is perhaps not the F-22, but at least in the marketplace the PAK-FA"¦
http://www.aerosocietychannel.com/aerospace-insight/2011/01/not-so-hidden-dragon-j-20-assessed/
An in-depth analysis of China's new Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter, which made its first flight on 11 January, and why it may not only represent a threat to Western fighter pilots, but also to the Russian aerospace industry.
First flight of Chengdu J-20
Stealth fighters, it seems, are like London buses – you wait patiently for ages for one to turn up (F-35) and then two (PAK-FA and J-20/J-XX) turn up (almost) at the same time. Pictures, blurred at first, of the J-20 undergoing ground tests, soon gave way to clearer and sharper pics, as well as video of the aircraft's maiden flight on 11 January. One wonders whether the security guards had orders to confiscate cameras and issue the spotters with better quality camera lens.
Across the Internet, the first flight of the J-20 has caused a predictable division into opposing camps. On one side, by hysterical worriers, the aircraft was described as a 'terrifying challenge' that would eat F-22 Raptors for breakfast, and gorge on baby F-35s as light snacks. Meanwhile those on the opposite side dismissed it as a one-off publicity stunt by a country that only knows how to copy stuff and is at least 25 years old. A similar 'not-invented here' attitude that cost US pilots their lives some 70 years ago when the Zero was first encountered.
J-20 in plan view
The truth, as ever, is we don't know. While the shaping of the aircraft aims torwards stealth (although the canard dihedral suggests the designers have sacrified some LO for agility) and its has a mean paint job, the real questions Western (and other) intelligence analysts will be focusing on are the engines, radar and sensor fusion.
Though undoubtedly the electronics and IT industry have taken leaps and bounds since the F-22 was developed (many smart phones now boast a 1Ghz processor and a dual core phone is just about to hit the market) the key is in sensor fusion and in integration. As the US is finding out to its cost with F-35, software is the trickiest part to get right. Though pictures that have surfaced on the Internet show a snazzy cockpit straight out of Battlestar Galactica, it is unclear whether the flying J-20 has this, or whether this is future concept. What can be gleaned from the pictures is the fighter sports a wide-angle holographic HUD.
J-20 glass cockpit
Engines, too, are as of the moment an unknown. Previously reliant on Russia for engines any, development in powerplants would signify a greater leap forward than the pure airframe and some analysts have suggested a new Chinese engine, the Shenyang WS 15 may power the J-20. However, notably the J-20 also uses a divertless supersonic intake (DSI) and is only the third aircraft to sport this feature after the F-35 and JF-17, suggesting that Chinese experience with this technology has been successful so far and it has brought benefits.
Head on view of the J-20 showing the low-observable DSIs.
Radar, too, is currently an unknown although China's extensive espionage efforts also may mean that an AESA radar may be further along the line than previously thought. It has already built up experience with phased-array radars in its AWACS projects.
However, in armament China is now making great strides in guided weapons of all types. Its AMRAAM-type AAM, the PL-12, reportedly outranges the original US weapon. A short-range dogfight missile, the PL-ASR has been described as 'very scary' by one western missile expert. Meanwhile China is reported to be working on a long-range ramjet powered missile – the PL-13 comparable to Europe's MBDA Meteor which, if introduced today, would outrange anything in the (white) US inventory. In short, Western missile experts in private are noticeably rattled by this progress and maintain that any gap in quality between western and Chinese air-to-air weaponry is fast closing.
Graphic of Chinese AAMs (lowest PL-12, nearest PL-ASR/PL-10 top Pl-13).
However, questions still remain. Looking at it through the western prism of how aircraft programmes are developed may not be especially helpful in this case. Is it a one-off, a technology demonstrator, a first prototype or what?
For examples of dead-end projects, one can look at previous Russian fighters – the Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut (a forward-swept wing testbed) and MiG 1.44 – both of which, despite causing a stir in the West, (and are still featured in aerial combat video games as 'boss' enemies due their sexiness) – never made it to frontline service. However, despite this uncertainty there are two main conclusions to be drawn and a third possibility that so far has mostly been missed by analysts.
Sukhoi Su-47 – never made into service – except in videogames"¦
A real flying demonstrator
The first is that the maiden flight of the J-20 means that China is now only the third nation in the world, after the US and Russia, to develop and test-fly a full-size stealth combat aircraft demonstrator. This in itself elevates Chinese aerospace capability and makes it one to watch even more closely in the future. While other countries such as the UK (BAE Systems Replica) West Germany (MBB Lampyridae) and Japan (Mitsubishi ATD-X) have all created full-size stealth aircraft mock-ups – the J-20 – unless it is an epic deception plan (complete with CGI crowds cheering outside the airfield wire) is a real flying article. Lessons learnt here, even if this is a one-off, will certainly feed into future designs and development.
BAE Replica - effectively the UK's entry chip to JSF saying 'we can do stealth ourselves' (BAE Systems)
Strategic surprise
The second is that this has come as a strategic surprise to the West and especially the US. While the existence of a Chinese stealth fighter programme was known (complete with regular CGI renders from the online Photoshop crowd), the prevailing opinion was that it was much further away in the future than is now known. It may be, in fact, that the programme has been accelerated since it has come so fast on the heels of the PAK-FA. So, this will cause the US and allies to reassess timescales for Chinese projects. If it is a prototype for an operational type to be fielded, it may be in service more quickly than people think. The timing, too, (though it may have been a pure accident) of the country's first stealth fighter flying just as the US Secretary of Defense visits only serves to rub salt into the wound 'See – we're catching you up'. In history, amplified by the Cold War, this type of strategic surprise (Sputnik, bomber gaps, Foxbat, ultra-agile dogfight AAMs) has been the spur for US defence R&D. Will this be the case now?
Now that a real aircraft has replaced CGI renders - what will the West's response be?
Stealth on the export market
Finally, and a major point that many have missed, is that this potentially sets up a very interesting future export battle in fifth-generation stealth fighters between China and Russia. Previously for affordable combat aircraft, second tier airforces (and non-US allies) have had more or less one choice – Moscow for MiG-29 and Su-30 fighters.
The emergence of the PAK-FA no doubt last year whetted appetites for a lower cost stealth fighter among those countries for whom F-35 is either (a) too expensive or (b) not available. India has already taken the plunge in this direction despite multiple other ongoing fighter projects (MRCA, Tejas, MiG-29K).
However, in China, export of defence equipment and fighters is now becoming an industrial goal. The JF-17/FC-1 for example is being aimed at the MiG-21 replacement market and with a sticker price of less than $25m is highly attractive to third world airforces with whom China has influence.
The Sino-Pakistani JF-17/FC-1 is now being marketed to Chinese allies in the developing world.
So the emergence of the J-20, perhaps now on a similar development timescale is an exciting prospect for second tier air forces around the world – after years of dreaming about stealth capability – they may have two aircraft to choose from, with China and Russia competing aggressively for their business.
As Professor Keith Hayward, Head of Research, Royal Aeronautical Society, notes in an upcoming analysis of the Chinese aerospace industry for the February issue of Aerospace International magazine: "China's wider commercial relationships with developing world states are also providing useful leverage in forging deals." China, then wants to move from just producing aircraft for its own domestic consumption, and a red-hot product like the J-20 could help it achieve this, far more than any slightly overweight A320 lookalike like the C919. Furthermore, with 'Western-equivalent' Chinese AAMs missiles to 'bundle' it with, any nation buying a J-20 would get an extremely capable weapon system – that will be 'good enough' for the majority of air forces and cheap enough to buy in siginficant numbers.
Boeing's Jim Albaugh too, has noted Chinese export ambitions for its civil and military products: "I think from an export standpoint, we will be increasingly challenged as an aerospace industry because the Chinese are going to be players too."
This then is the real threat assessment for US and western air forces – the fact that potential adversaries all across the world may be fielding low-observable aircraft in the not too distant future. Having two sources for a low-observable fighter (even if they are still behind in capability with the F-22/F-35) will make it much more difficult for the US to restrict their sales to unfriendly nations.
Sukhoi PAK-FA - future sales rival to J-20?
The stealth genie then, is well out of the bottle. Where Western fighter pilots once woke up in cold sweats over the Fulcrum and Flanker, the PAK-FA and J-20 represent another key qualitative edge being eroded.
The real competitor for the J-20, then, is perhaps not the F-22, but at least in the marketplace the PAK-FA"¦
http://www.aerosocietychannel.com/aerospace-insight/2011/01/not-so-hidden-dragon-j-20-assessed/
Last edited:
So conventional horizontal stabilizer has no drag then?
Canards provides possitive lift thus less induced drag right compare to conventional tail plane right?
Also canard layout abeys area law much better
p2prada
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You guys are sacrificing some stealth for agility. That's all.
Canards don't necessarily define LO or no LO. There would be an increase in RCS with canards, but nothing to indicate it will look like a big truck now.
There will be slightly increased forward RCS by canard, however J-20 has much smaller vertical stabilizer and no inet diverter.
As a result the overall forward RCS won't look too bad.
In fact much better than current stage T-50, let's see what we got in T-50-2
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The Jhootha-20 looks all wrong! The rudders look very misplaced and i dont know how they may work at high mach speeds without snapping off.
Minghegy
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I don't think PLA and CF will sell J20.
Even they sell, few country can afford it.
Even some countries can afford it, they don't have a proper system to support it.
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The plane still has two stablisers, plus two huge canards just as big, not to mention two extra bottom rear stablisers. The plane is overloaded with them which means huge drag and large RCS.
Canards increase surface area, and do so on a stealth plane exponentially in the frontal arc when they incline/decline. The canards on J-20 are like extra wings, unlike canards on say the Rafale which are little bigger than a movable LERX. Canards are sacrificing stealth for maneuverabilty, but those are not the only problem with the J-20 as it also has those bottom rear stablisers which is going to kill rear and side aspect stealth. With WS-10 engines you can forget about supercruise.
sayareakd
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Here i found a pic which might interest you
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
red arrow shows the door line and the brown one shows the compartment of wheel, so it has space just before the wheel bay.
houde10000
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American support any hostile force in China
If you are really interested into this, you can simply move your finger to google "CIA Tibet book", there will be a long list for you, I have read one written by a retired CIA agent, who trained tibetan terrorist in US how to bomb, radio, assassinate, etc. and then those terrorists were drop by US military airplane (taken off from India) into Tibetan to make terrorism attact.
Uyghur riots were also supported and organized by American, their headquarter, remotely controled those riots, is in Washington D.C.
Those riots are nothing about Racial Discrimination!!!! In China, there is a very stupid and funny "minority policy", straightly say "Han discrimination policy", the majority Han are secondary class. If you don't believe that, please explain this for me: one side of parents is minority, their children allow to choose their race, today all of them will choose MINORITY RACE, not MAJORITY HAN RACE.
HUMAN RIGHT!!! In 2008.July.05 riot, over 200 HAN and HUI muslin (Han faith Islam) were beated by Uyghur thugs to death, over 2000 were seriously wounded. Do you count that as HUMAN RIGHT VIOLATION? Have you heared and seen any report from the WEST FAIR and OBJECTIVE MEDIA, CNN? BBC?
I saw the Uyghur Riot conductor, Rebiya Kadeer, site in 2010 Nobel Peace Prize Ceremony, that's really funny!!
Yes, US did, do, and will do.
If you are really interested into this, you can simply move your finger to google "CIA Tibet book", there will be a long list for you, I have read one written by a retired CIA agent, who trained tibetan terrorist in US how to bomb, radio, assassinate, etc. and then those terrorists were drop by US military airplane (taken off from India) into Tibetan to make terrorism attact.
Uyghur riots were also supported and organized by American, their headquarter, remotely controled those riots, is in Washington D.C.
Those riots are nothing about Racial Discrimination!!!! In China, there is a very stupid and funny "minority policy", straightly say "Han discrimination policy", the majority Han are secondary class. If you don't believe that, please explain this for me: one side of parents is minority, their children allow to choose their race, today all of them will choose MINORITY RACE, not MAJORITY HAN RACE.
HUMAN RIGHT!!! In 2008.July.05 riot, over 200 HAN and HUI muslin (Han faith Islam) were beated by Uyghur thugs to death, over 2000 were seriously wounded. Do you count that as HUMAN RIGHT VIOLATION? Have you heared and seen any report from the WEST FAIR and OBJECTIVE MEDIA, CNN? BBC?
I saw the Uyghur Riot conductor, Rebiya Kadeer, site in 2010 Nobel Peace Prize Ceremony, that's really funny!!
houde10000
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China is still a poor country, not like India, so rich to sway billions dollar for fun, chinese can not offer to make 80,000pounds stealth jet which doesn't has weapon bay to carry weapon.
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Here i found a pic which might interest you
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
red arrow shows the door line and the brown one shows the compartment of wheel, so it has space just before the wheel bay.
Look at it carefully, the line of your supposed bay goes straight into the landing gear bay.
sayareakd
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true, this is prototype.......lets wait and see what more those chines show us.
houde10000
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Dude, I don't need to look at your picture, i know chinese very well, they won't make a big empty bird to show off, they always try to hide as much as they can, not other way.
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Dude, I don't need to listen to your denials. Chinese make entire empty cities, towns and shopping malls. Making a tech demonstrator with no launch bay is not going to suprise anyone.
houde10000
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Dear Mr. Armand2REP,
I had worked in China for a while, stayed in Shanghai, Guanzhou, Shenzhen, etc. I have never seen any shopping mall, city, town not full with crowd people, full with cars. The whole country is like The Bay Mall, Macy Mall in christmas season, full with actived and excited people!!! I really miss the exciting colorful chinese night life, hope Mr. Armand2REP has chance to try.
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I am in Tianhe GZ right now. It is 6:20 and half the buildings outside my window are completely dark except the stairwells. South China Mall, second largest in the world is empty. The new city of Ordos is empty. There are a string of towns in Inner Mongolia that are empty. Get around and see it.
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LOL，my hometown is ShenZhen, my uncle's family is in GuangZhou.
I can safely draw the conclusion now,YOU are either blind or joking. BTW, tell us where will open at France at 6:20 AM?
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