J20 Stealth Fighter

SHASH2K2

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Military & political info is always sensitive to all the nations. The censorship is everywhere, hidden or obvious.

But i think for India, it's too transparent, like even i can read the article in Chinese for telling me how many flights the LCA is taking (then PLAAF knows no need to worry the LCA for next 3-5 yrs, and got this info for free).

Sometimes, the "blur" is good when weaker nation facing the stronger nation ( India > China, or China > USA)
Nice justification IMHO . I understand if Government didn't invited any civilian and its a top secret projest. but when so called civilians were there for the function does it makes sense to issue no official statement or releasing the pictures ? moment civilians were there it means government is ready to accept its existence. So no official deceleration means there is something fishy till pictures are clear.
 

redragon

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I knew you'd do this, not suprise, it's fine, by the way what do you think about the J-20 now? still just fanboy's PS?
 

Daredevil

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I knew you'd do this, not suprise, it's fine, by the way what do you think about the J-20 now? still just fanboy's PS?
I raised many questions and no one bothered to respond. Let there be official report for me to believe it, not these photoshopped blurry pictures.Till then I will not believe it and will criticize the pictures as rationally as possible..
 

Kunal Biswas

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It would be vary interesting, what engines will be used on J-20 production model..

Btw, What are the updates on AESA radars..
 
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http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest


J-20 - Denial Is Not An Option

More photos of the Chengdu stealth fighter prototype, reportedly the J-20, continue to emerge - although they don't add too much as yet to our understanding of the aircraft itself. It will take a little more measurement to pin down the jet's size, and without a plan view we can't say much. (The last time this happened was with the YF-12, and most people were miles away from the real aircraft.)

First, it looks like a delta, not a lambda:



That has some signature implications, with what looks like an almost unswept trailing edge, because edges scatter forward and backwards.

The questions that need to be answered start with the size, because that will start to tell us where this aircraft falls on the bomber/fighter continuum.

The next question: how far along is the aircraft in development and, if it is pursued, when will it become operational? I would submit that the simplistic approach - comparing this aircraft to the YF-22 or X-35 and therefore projecting an IOC well beyond 2020 - is philosophically wrong, dangerous and stupid.

One problem is that we don't have a pattern for Chinese major programs. In the Cold War, the Soviet Union had its own development procedure that often confused us. The first aircraft of any type would be pure prototypes. Once the go-ahead was given for the type to enter service, MiG or Sukhoi would build a small batch of aircraft for service testing under operational conditions. Only then would full-rate production start. What was often confusing was that the service-test jets would be mistaken for operational aircraft.

China has not had many major combat aircraft programs. The most complex is the J-10, which flew in 1998 and is now well established in service with a major upgrade in flight test. The simpler JF-17 has moved even faster. However, this means that Chengdu can draw on a team which has recent experience with two full development programs and an upgrade.

Once big factor will be the engine. China's transition from dependence on Russian-developed high-performance engines is still under way. The key will be seeing whether and when the doemstically designed WS-10 replaces the Russian AL-31 in the J-10 and the J-11 (China's "bootleg" version of the Sukhoi family).

What could change things substantially is Russian-Chinese collaboration. Despite Russian concerns over China's reverse-engineering of its products, the lure of Chinese money and access to China's micro-electronics base is strong. And if Russia has permitted the export of the latest 117S engines for the J-20, it tells us a lot.

Meanwhile at Chengdu, the forward observation team is digging in for the long haul:
 

rockdog

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I raised many questions and no one bothered to respond. Let there be official report for me to believe it, not these photoshopped blurry pictures.Till then I will not believe it and will criticize the pictures as rationally as possible..
If this is your standard to "believe", i am afraid that we still need 5-10 yrs to make you get convinced, and even at that time we can't use open source to answer all your questions.

If i remember right, the first flight of J10 was at 1998, and on 2008 the PLAAF announced its existence, but people didn't doubt it since the images were popular at 2004...

Yes, you can keep on criticizing, but for what? for the existence of fighter or the professionalism of showing images on cyber?
 
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http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/12/is-this-chinas-first-stealth-fighter/

Is This China's First Stealth Fighter?


They could be the products of a Chinese government misinformation campaign. They could be clever Photoshop jobs by Chinese aviation fanboys. Or, they could be the real thing: the first hard evidence of the long-rumored Chengdu J-20, China's first stealth-fighter prototype.

The above photo and several others surfaced over the Christmas weekend on Chinese internet forums, catching the eye of Aviation Week fighter guru Bill Sweetman. A noted skeptic in the sometimes enthusiastic world of fast-jet journalism, Sweetman stressed that the pics might be fakes.

Fantastical Photoshop art is a hallmark of Chinese military-themed websites. See the giant, flying "heli-carrier" or the submarine flattop — both creations of over-excited Chinese Photoshoppers.

But there are hints that the J-20 photos are real — and that much clearer shots exist, somewhere. "Rumor has it that better shots have put in transient appearances on Chinese Websites before being zapped by the censor," Sweetman wrote. That those rumored photos were yanked is itself perhaps proof that Beijing really does have a new fighter. "In China's military fan Web culture, the rapid intervention of the censors is always a boost for the credibility of the poster," aviation journalist Rick Fisher told Sweetman.

Most convincingly, the airplane depicted in the snapshots apparently has many of the right characteristics for a fifth-generation stealth-fighter prototype: a chiseled front-section, triangular wings, all-moving tailplanes. In fact, the supposed J-20 seems to combine the front fuselage of the U.S. Air Force's F-22 with the back half of Russia's T-50 stealth prototype, which appeared a little less than a year ago.

If it's real — and that's a big if — the J-20's appearance could signal a big step forward for the Chinese air force, which to date relies mostly on airplanes bought from Russia or reverse-engineered from Russian or Israeli designs.

Panicky Western air-power advocates, who a year ago claimed America would be "less safe" if the Pentagon pressed forward with plans to end production of the F-22 stealth fighter at 187 copies, might just announce the end of America's 50-year dominance of the skies. Alarmists made similar claims when Russia's new T-50 fighter first flew, despite that plane's many non-stealthy attributes and dubious production prospects.

The Pentagon hasn't had a chance to comment on the J-20 photos, but is likely to remain sanguine. In deliberations over the F-22, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates acknowledged that the Chinese were working on a stealth fighter, but insisted the Communist country would have "no fifth-generation aircraft by 2020," while the United States would have more than a thousand F-22s and F-35s.

In the year-and-a-half since Gates made that claim, the Pentagon has delayed F-35 production and China has apparently accelerated its own stealth development — alleged J-20 photos aside — but the spirit of Gates' assertion remains valid.

Even if the photos are real and the J-20 exists as more than blueprints, there's probably no cause for alarm. The United States flew its first stealth prototypes — the YF-22 and rival YF-23 — in 1990; the J-20 hasn't even flown yet. It took 15 years for the F-22 to enter front-line service. Considering China's quality-control problems with high technology, it could take a decade or more for the J-20 to appear in numbers that make any difference in the Pacific balance of power. Gates might have been slightly off in his assessment of the Chinese air force, but probably not by much.

And that's all assuming Beijing's Christmas stealth-fighter surprise isn't all just Photoshop magic. With so little good information on military hardware coming out of China, fighter fakery is a real prospect. In which case, we'll wait for China's first stealth fighter to make its true debut.

Update, 7:28 EST: There's another photo up — the clearest yet. "The impression here is of a big, long aircraft, 70+ feet from nose to tail, which would make sense for a number of reasons," Sweetman wrote in reaction. He speculated the J-20 might have "lower supercruise performance and agility than an F-22, but with larger weapon bays and more fuel."

"Why would China need or want a short-range stealth aircraft?" he continued. "Any targets with defenses that call for that capability are a long way from the mainland. Also, the bigger that the aircraft is, the more likely it is that it is a bomber as much as, if not more than, a fighter."
 

Daredevil

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If this is your standard to "believe", i am afraid that we still need 5-10 yrs to make you get convinced, and even at that time we can't use open source to answer all your questions.

If i remember right, the first flight of J10 was at 1998, and on 2008 the PLAAF announced its existence, but people didn't doubt it since the images were popular at 2004...

Yes, you can keep on criticizing, but for what? for the existence of fighter or the professionalism of showing images on cyber?
That's the way standards are set in the free world where free press works, what you see is what you get. May be this is not the way your world works where there is a trickle of blurry pictures with no details to back up with except for some fan boy fantasies. That's not the way a country convinces the world about its fighter jet. Look at the launch of PAK-FA. It was kept under wraps till the last minute and then high-resolution pictures and high quality videos are released to the world to indicate that it can make and fly 5th gen fighter. That's what I expect even from Chinese if I have to get convinced.

But what we get is blurred pictures. And there are some posters who post pictures like below and tell us to believe that it is a prototype. All this process is so laughable and amusing in understanding the psyche of chinese people.

 

Kunal Biswas

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Not very different form 100s previous computer generate pic..
 

rockdog

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That's the way standards are set in the free world where free press works, what you see is what you get. May be this is not the way your world works where there is a trickle of blurry pictures with no details to back up with except for some fan boy fantasies. That's not the way a country convinces the world about its fighter jet. Look at the launch of PAK-FA. It was kept under wraps till the last minute and then high-resolution pictures and high quality videos are released to the world to indicate that it can make and fly 5th gen fighter. That's what I expect even from Chinese if I have to get convinced.

But what we get is blurred pictures. And there are some posters who post pictures like below and tell us to believe that it is a prototype. All this process is so laughable and amusing in understanding the psyche of chinese people.

1. I don't know how old are you.
But if you would read the history little bit, how the free world leader USA hide its 1st and 2nd stealth aircraft F/A117 and B2 for yrs in 80s, and even with very paranoid ways...

So if USA did such way for its new toy, why China can't not.


2. Your Russian T-50 case, everyone knows Russian suffered from the failure of major weapon system innovation for past 2 decades,
this was more like a big show to tell the world Russia military industry is back.
On the other hand: this is a joint project with India right? So show something to investor they were not abuse the money?


3. I already made some explanation for the blur images:
--------
In coming days, more and more detailed pictures will be shown on internet.


The nano size > blur > clearer > detailed image process, is typical way of "wikileak" in China.

The fans firstly took the picture, and then put the nano size image on the internet, to detect the bottom line of the authority:
whether they gonna delete the post or even shutdown the forum. When nothing happens, then one step closer...

This was the exact way when J-10 got expose 6 yrs ago by Fans,
(remember that the J-10 is officially revealed two yrs ago? But even the old IDF members have seem the pictures for yrs..., )
All the Chinese fans are get used to it, but might be hard to be understood by our Indian members...
--------------------------------


BTW, plz try not to bring the topic into ideology debate, like connecting blur images with "free world".

And you can choose after 10 yrs to wait and believe it, and even still deny it, that's your choice, but i don't care ^_^. And many people will care?
 
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If this is a fake Chinese will dig themselves into a hole when all the neighbors get REAL fifth generation planes and they have nothing to counter it.
 

rockdog

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If this is a fake Chinese will dig themselves into a hole when all the neighbors get REAL fifth generation planes and they have nothing to counter it.
If this is a real Chinese will build themselves a high building when most the neighbors still using 3rd and 4th generation planes and they have nothing to counter it, and like living in holes... Of course, USA is always the exception, but he is not our neighbor.
 

LurkerBaba

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Dude wtf is this user "beatasan" (beat asan). Go talk about your Han superiority in your "High IQ" Chinese fora, mods ban this trash
 
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If this is a real Chinese will build themselves a high building when most the neighbors still using 3rd and 4th generation planes and they have nothing to counter it, and like living in holes... Of course, USA is always the exception, but he is not our neighbor.
what engine is in this fifth generation plane?????All your neighbors already have
4th generation or better it is China that is playing catch up.(Taiwan,Japan,s.korea,australia,India)
 
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Kunal Biswas

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But if you would read the history little bit, how the free world leader USA hide its 1st and 2nd stealth aircraft F/A117 and B2 for yrs in 80s, and even with very paranoid ways...


And you can choose after 10 yrs to wait and believe it, and even still deny it, that's your choice, but i don't care ^_^

He Simple meant is post good quality images of the prototype of 4g you have, Posting some blurry images and running with it wont give u applause, No one give a damn abt Chinese policy abt its secrecy or to anyone, U can post pics and u answer member question, and avoid flames..
 

rockdog

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He Simple meant is post good quality images of the prototype of 4g you have, Posting some blurry images and running with it wont give u applause, No one give a damn abt Chinese policy abt its secrecy or to anyone, U can post pics and u answer member question, and avoid flames..
Sorry if i made any flames.

I already gave the explanation, but he didn't buy it...
 
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He Simple meant is post good quality images of the prototype of 4g you have, Posting some blurry images and running with it wont give u applause, No one give a damn abt Chinese policy abt its secrecy or to anyone, U can post pics and u answer member question, and avoid flames..
If you had a REAL fifth generation plane would you present it to the world in a blurry picture?? This is another hoax .
 

redragon

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what engine is in this fifth generation plane?????All your neighbors already have
4th generation or better it is China that is playing catch up.(Taiwan,Japan,s.korea,australia,India)
Hey, China has J-11, su-30 and J-10a/b, so china has 4 th gen too, true that China is buying engines for its fighters, but you guys are buying the whole fighters, what is the difference?
 

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