J20 Stealth Fighter

MiG-29SMT

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Sorry if I said anything offensive. I am not a Mexico bashing people, in fact i don't even expect any Mexico related topic here.

I just felt very bizzare that you brought conecpt of western world in this threat, and claim your pov were from "quite" part of western world and claim Mexico is advanced nation.

From my POV, the core of western world is WASP nations, the 2nd ring would be those Protestant nations from Europe, 3nd ring is Catholic natioins from Europe, the 4th ring is orthodox from Europe, the 5th ring is the those Catholic nations from remote area like Mexico. You keep on claiming you are from western world, just make me think like a Cashier from Walwart shop told his friends he's working in an Fortune 500 company ... You think you are important one from them, but they almost ignore you ... It's kind of pathetic from my POV.


For Mexico as a nation, i don't have any special feelings, from my memory, it just a typical sample from politicaleconomics with terms of "Latinno Trap" of "disfunctional governmence", which for Chinese policy maker will try to avoid, remember this is not the bashing, it's academical research.

As you said Mexico has is slightly better living standard than Brazil and China, yes, but it has been there for decades, and the growth is very slow, this is the typical "Latinno Trap".

Your government dosen't have ability of making independent policy. With NAFTA, USA almost destroy your industrial capability and agriculture. Your government couldn't setup policies to protect your own workers and farmers with reasonable TAX. You showed me some finished industrial products, but i don't care, your whole industry chain is reply on USA and it own gives minimum profit to your country.

Plus, this is military forum, normally we talk about weapons and armed forces.

For weapons, i don't find any major weapons we would discuss from Mexico, for those big name weapon with Mexican parts, it's just like i bought a Raptor F150 with Ford brand, i don't care it's made in Mexico or California.

For armed force, i don't know what we would talk, if in the nation the drug gangsters have better weapons than army, i don't know it's a mordern nation or disfuncitonal naton.

Again, appriciate your contribution on J20 but disagree most of your POVs on other areas.
your concept of western is a misconception, West does not equal developed nation.

West is a geographical concept, first I am western 100% I am from the west of Jerusalem, the idea of west comes from that anything to the west of jerusalem is west.

Culturally I am western too, you misunderstanding is to think west equals british or anglosaxon.

West is a concept borned of Christian civilization, which is Europe and western christianity and democracy.


regardless of that you misunderstand what does J-20 mean, it is a great technical feat in fact regardless it is a weapon it proves China has great engineers.

Bur remember a globalized world means what one nation can do, another can do it.

If they do not take the national trend tech, they take the international cooperation.

Most Chinese forum people here come to boast how great is china compared to India, but reality wise, any nation can do technology, in Mexico some of our products have chinese parts and same is you.

We live in a globalized world, technology spreads, is not that you are smarter than Indians or any other nation, is globalization the problem is Chinese forget all the social injustices you have in your country and glorify J-20, you think J-20 is a proof you live better than swiss people.

reality wise J-20 does not make China a paradise and most foreigners we see the militaristic expansionism of China a threat to world peace.
 

rockdog

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Bur remember a globalized world means what one nation can do, another can do it.

If they do not take the national trend tech, they take the international cooperation.

We live in a globalized world, technology spreads, is not that you are smarter than Indians or any other nation, is globalization the problem is Chinese forget all the social injustices you have in your country and glorify J-20, you think J-20 is a proof you live better than swiss people.
I think for weapons, it's the most anti-globalized area. If you use common economic theory, all "western" nation should just purchase F35, and contribute R&D fund to F22 B/C/D to save $$, but the reality is not.

Also the 5Gen fighter and its supportive system like satellite, data link, AEW are too costly to small and medium size of developed and developing nations.

Countries like Mexico, Brazil will be forever knocked about from this league, only 50 million + population developed nation or naton unions have chances.

If you look at S.Korea, 3 days ago it labelled as developed nation by UN, but its 1st verson of fighter is like this:

jpeg.jpg


It lacks weapon bay and DSI intake, and it promises these two will come in 2nd edition. It's quite opposite your claim that "all developing nations would do 5gen figher" and "it's a globlization world".
 

MiG-29SMT

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I think for weapons, it's the most anti-globalized area. If you use common economic theory, all "western" nation should just purchase F35, and contribute R&D fund to F22 B/C/D to save $$, but the reality is not.

Also the 5Gen fighter and its supportive system like satellite, data link, AEW are too costly to small and medium size of developed and developing nations.

Countries like Mexico, Brazil will be forever knocked about from this league, only 50 million + population developed nation or naton unions have chances.

If you look at S.Korea, 3 days ago it labelled as developed nation by UN, but its 1st verson of fighter is like this:

View attachment 99457

It lacks weapon bay and DSI intake, and it promises these two will come in 2nd edition. It's quite opposite your claim that "all developing nations would do 5gen figher" and "it's a globlization world".
everything depends in priorities.

5th generation technologies are sooner or later surpassed.

Europe is developing a Jet that is far far more advanced than J-20, and in cooperation, England-Sweden-Italy one side, Germany-France-Spain other side.

So far in latin america we signed an agreement to do not have nukes, thus we are not targets, you are already a target, in fact having nukes is a stupid idea.

Brasil and Mexico we are specializing in civil aerospace.

Remember sooner or later a technology is surpassed and it spreads.

today we can build advanced sport aircraft with composites, Brasil large regional jets.

You misunderstand a lot, J-20 does not mean other nations are behind, because in reality all technology is kept hidden and not shared just for a few years, but aircraft projects are very expensive thus international cooperation is better.

You built 50 J-20, Brazil built more than 1000 ERJ-145

You built 400 plus J-10s, Brazil builds more than 1000 E-jets.

Tell me why? China finances its military is wasted money but Brazil sells overseas.

You get branded a threat, Brazil gets access to many markets.

We also already make many jet parts, even used in C919.

So what is better? being a nuke target, or be a nuke free zone, time will show we are smarter by choosing a nuke free zone
 

HariPrasad-1

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everything depends in priorities.

5th generation technologies are sooner or later surpassed.

Europe is developing a Jet that is far far more advanced than J-20, and in cooperation, England-Sweden-Italy one side, Germany-France-Spain other side.

So far in latin america we signed an agreement to do not have nukes, thus we are not targets, you are already a target, in fact having nukes is a stupid idea.

Brasil and Mexico we are specializing in civil aerospace.

Remember sooner or later a technology is surpassed and it spreads.

today we can build advanced sport aircraft with composites, Brasil large regional jets.

You misunderstand a lot, J-20 does not mean other nations are behind, because in reality all technology is kept hidden and not shared just for a few years, but aircraft projects are very expensive thus international cooperation is better.

You built 50 J-20, Brazil built more than 1000 ERJ-145

You built 400 plus J-10s, Brazil builds more than 1000 E-jets.

Tell me why? China finances its military is wasted money but Brazil sells overseas.

You get branded a threat, Brazil gets access to many markets.

We also already make many jet parts, even used in C919.

So what is better? being a nuke target, or be a nuke free zone, time will show we are smarter by choosing a nuke free zone
J20 is such a 5th generation aircraft which does not have any fifth generation stuff. It has substandard AESA radar, Substandard engine, it can not super cruise, It can be detected from far away distance e.g. MKI flying near Tejpur detected J 20 over Tibet near Lhasa. It is an unique 5th generation aircraft which does not have any fifth generation plane components including advance engine, weaponry or electronics.
 

rockdog

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everything depends in priorities.

5th generation technologies are sooner or later surpassed.

Europe is developing a Jet that is far far more advanced than J-20, and in cooperation, England-Sweden-Italy one side, Germany-France-Spain other side.

So far in latin america we signed an agreement to do not have nukes, thus we are not targets, you are already a target, in fact having nukes is a stupid idea.

Brasil and Mexico we are specializing in civil aerospace.

Remember sooner or later a technology is surpassed and it spreads.

today we can build advanced sport aircraft with composites, Brasil large regional jets.

You misunderstand a lot, J-20 does not mean other nations are behind, because in reality all technology is kept hidden and not shared just for a few years, but aircraft projects are very expensive thus international cooperation is better.

You built 50 J-20, Brazil built more than 1000 ERJ-145

You built 400 plus J-10s, Brazil builds more than 1000 E-jets.

Tell me why? China finances its military is wasted money but Brazil sells overseas.

You get branded a threat, Brazil gets access to many markets.

We also already make many jet parts, even used in C919.

So what is better? being a nuke target, or be a nuke free zone, time will show we are smarter by choosing a nuke free zone
It's first time i see people compares military aircraft with civil use.

There are hundreds of Chinse drones sold to other nations, not only drones but the production lines of drones. China has ablity to export the total solution of military drones without western subsystem, please check how many subsystems of E-jets are from USA and European. I never mentioned it in this theat.

Again as i said, in civil filed, the aviation industry is globalized so dose C919 and E-jet, but not in military field, your comparision is no sense.

Plus if you really talk about civil aircraft, DJI own the 70% share of world's civil market, shall i make comparison here?

Finally, if E-jet is so competitive, why it wanna to sell with a low price, but nobody need it:
 

MiG-29SMT

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It's first time i see people compares military aircraft with civil use.

There are hundreds of Chinse drones sold to other nations, not only drones but the production lines of drones. China has ablity to export the total solution of military drones without western subsystem, please check how many subsystems of E-jets are from USA and European. I never mentioned it in this theat.

Again as i said, in civil filed, the aviation industry is globalized so dose C919 and E-jet, but not in military field, your comparision is no sense.

Plus if you really talk about civil aircraft, DJI own the 70% share of world's civil market, shall i make comparison here?

Finally, if E-jet is so competitive, why it wanna to sell with a low price, but nobody need it:
you have to see the real aspects and level of Aerospace in China and other countries.

In General China has studied, copied, modified and designed.

However China got that technology via, purchases, spying, and Chinese students that worked overseas.

Add the tech transfers China asked to investors in China.

J-20 shows a well developed aircraft industry, no doubt it shows the desire to build modern aircraft.

However here you overblown the J-20 importance.

Its production is low, even a 10-12 units a year is low.

It is expensive and very likely has low reliability.

Civil aircraft contrary what you think demand much higher reliability and much more safety, they are to be able to fly often, without accidents and make money.

Thus while you minimize Brazils aerospace, China even with J-20 has not achieved a really great leap, why? because while it is a very advanced military machine, J-20 does not make civil aviation less important.

J-20 is overhyped, the fact China developed a stealth fighter after 23 years the USA flew YF-22, shows you technology is transfered.

In general terms yes China has a well developed aircraft industry, but you used lots of money to get the tech transfers, Y-20, Z-10 or J-10 have foreign input.

J-20 has its own design concept, how good it is well future air combat will show if it correct or not, but in General terms Brazil has a very well developed aircraft industry and Mexico well while behind China, we have other policy, our policy is business, we are in many aerospace programs doing outsourcing, building aircraft parts or jet engine parts, but you overblow everything, China is not the only nation that will develop.

Brazil, India, and many others are developing aircraft industries thanks to globalization
 

MiG-29SMT

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S-500 Prometheus: 'Killer of F-35' Has Undergone Combat Missile Trials & is Coming Soon
© Sputnik / Alexey Kudenko
RUSSIA
18:33 GMT 13.07.2021Get short URL
by Ekaterina Blinova
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The new generation S-500 Prometheus air defence system developed by the Russian arms company Almaz-Antey, the same group that produced the S-300 and S-400, has successfully completed a series of tests including combat missile launches, according to the Commander of the Missile Defence Troops of the Russian Air Force, Maj. Gen. Sergei Babakov.
Speaking to the Russian news outlet Krasnaya Zvezda last week, Major General Babakov elaborated that the S-500 has been developed as a completely new generation of anti-aircraft systems aimed at taking down medium-range ballistic missiles, and, if necessary, intercontinental ballistic missiles in the final stage of their flight path. In addition to this, the S-500 is capable of destroying hypersonic aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles, according to him.
"The S-500 air defence system is capable of destroying hypersonic weapons of all modifications, including in near space, in addition to aerodynamic and ballistic targets, which makes it possible to say with confidence that this system is unique", Maj. Gen. Babakov said.
Russia's new defence weapon can reportedly engage enemy ballistic missiles at a range of up to 600 kilometres and aircraft at about 500 kilometres.
The military official explained that the combat drills involved firing at targets possessing technical specifications similar to modern aerospace attack weapons or those with more advanced capabilities.

According to the major general, anti-aircraft missile crews hone their skills by intercepting both small-sized, low-flying, low-speed objects that mimic unmanned aerial vehicles and high-altitude, high-speed targets that mimic hypersonic missiles.

Moreover, the Russian Air Force has also taken into account the experience gained during the aerial campaign in the Syrian Arab Republic. All incidents of using weapons and anti-aircraft missile military equipment is being carefully studied and employed during the drills, Babakov highlighted.
Russia's military schools and academies of the Ministry of Defence as well as the country's technical universities are training specialists for anti-aircraft missile crews in the nation's Air Force, the major general noted, adding that this year over 1,000 graduates have taken up their duties in this branch of the armed forces of the Russian Federation.

S-500: Successor to S-400 or Entirely New Weapon?
Last December, Russian Deputy Defence Minister Alexei Krivoruchko revealed that the S-500 missile system and the Voronezh long-range early-warning radars could enter service as early as in 2021, following the completion of trials.

Long-range early warning radars are the backbone of any missile defence complex. The Voronezh family, which monitors airspace against ballistic missile and aircraft attacks has three variations: Voronezh-M (metre band), Voronezh-DM (decimeter band), and Voronezh-SM (centimeter band). All three operate in a single system making it capable of determining target parameters and type more precisely.

In early April 2021, Almaz-Antey signalled that the new S-500 air defence system was about to wrap up trials this year. It is expected that the new state-of-the-art Prometheus system will be delivered to the Russian Armed Forces once its combat tests are completed. In the future, the unique long-range air defence complex is due to become become the cornerstone of a unified national air and missile defence system.

On 28 June, during a meeting with top graduates from military schools and academies of the Ministry of Defence, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that the S-500 Prometheus anti-aircraft system, Sarmat intercontinental ballistic missile, and Zircon ship-based hypersonic missiles would soon be put on combat duty along with other advanced military complexes.

The development of the S-500 prompted a heated debate among western military observers who particularly raised the alarm over the system's reported ability to successfully thwart the US aircraft's low-observable (LO) technology: "Of all the Kremlin's latest weapons projects, the S-500 is among Russia's most direct and potent answers to US fifth-generation stealth fighter jets like Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II and F-22 Raptor", the National Interest underscored on 27 May 2021.
"S-500s would be ideal for providing regional ballistic missile defence along Russia's European borders with NATO", the Drive wrote in May 2018. "It is in many ways roughly analogous to the US-made Terminal High Altitude Area Defence system, or THAAD, though the goal is clearly to offer flexibility to respond to more conventional aerial threats, as well".

According to foreign observers, the S-500 can't be called a pure "successor" to the S-400: it's an entirely new weapon, designed to fulfill a broader set of strategic tasks.

 

rockdog

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you have to see the real aspects and level of Aerospace in China and other countries.

In General China has studied, copied, modified and designed.

However China got that technology via, purchases, spying, and Chinese students that worked overseas.

Add the tech transfers China asked to investors in China.

J-20 shows a well developed aircraft industry, no doubt it shows the desire to build modern aircraft.

However here you overblown the J-20 importance.

Its production is low, even a 10-12 units a year is low.

It is expensive and very likely has low reliability.

Civil aircraft contrary what you think demand much higher reliability and much more safety, they are to be able to fly often, without accidents and make money.

Thus while you minimize Brazils aerospace, China even with J-20 has not achieved a really great leap, why? because while it is a very advanced military machine, J-20 does not make civil aviation less important.

J-20 is overhyped, the fact China developed a stealth fighter after 23 years the USA flew YF-22, shows you technology is transfered.

In general terms yes China has a well developed aircraft industry, but you used lots of money to get the tech transfers, Y-20, Z-10 or J-10 have foreign input.

J-20 has its own design concept, how good it is well future air combat will show if it correct or not, but in General terms Brazil has a very well developed aircraft industry and Mexico well while behind China, we have other policy, our policy is business, we are in many aerospace programs doing outsourcing, building aircraft parts or jet engine parts, but you overblow everything, China is not the only nation that will develop.

Brazil, India, and many others are developing aircraft industries thanks to globalization
If you spend little time to read reports from think tanks like Hudson Institute, Rand, CSIS, even the abstracts, they see Chinese 5G/6G, Industry 4.0, Space program, Drone, Supercomputer, AI as biggest competitor to US and EU.

J20 somehow is the output of those stuff, or those stuff will empower the J20A and future versions. If you check the EMALS installed on coming 003 aircraft carrier, it uses different technical remote than the one from Ford Class.

For J20, it's still keep on evoluting, for such kind of evoluation first you have to put such platform into service (not like Indian and EU's are still in form of powerpoint and claim they are avdanced), 2nd you have to have enough amount (Russia's military budget is decreasing recent yrs), third your other systems to empower it (AI, Drones, growth manufacture capabilities) ...

For current status, i only see USA is leading, but for Russia its purchase amount is limited and its civil hi tech sector is still not going well, which will support less to the evolution of Su57.

For nations like Mexico and Brazil, I m not going to download play coz i have no idea where they are, if i read reports from US think tanks, they don't talk about them.

For those outsourced parts of Being and Airbus in Mexico and Brazil, China did same from 1980s' for Boeing, it's kind of supply chain globalization strategic of Boeing, or just kind of trade compensation policy.
 

MiG-29SMT

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If you spend little time to read reports from think tanks like Hudson Institute, Rand, CSIS, even the abstracts, they see Chinese 5G/6G, Industry 4.0, Space program, Drone, Supercomputer, AI as biggest competitor to US and EU.

J20 somehow is the output of those stuff, or those stuff will empower the J20A and future versions. If you check the EMALS installed on coming 003 aircraft carrier, it uses different technical remote than the one from Ford Class.

For J20, it's still keep on evoluting, for such kind of evoluation first you have to put such platform into service (not like Indian and EU's are still in form of powerpoint and claim they are avdanced), 2nd you have to have enough amount (Russia's military budget is decreasing recent yrs), third your other systems to empower it (AI, Drones, growth manufacture capabilities) ...

For current status, i only see USA is leading, but for Russia its purchase amount is limited and its civil hi tech sector is still not going well, which will support less to the evolution of Su57.

For nations like Mexico and Brazil, I m not going to download play coz i have no idea where they are, if i read reports from US think tanks, they don't talk about them.

For those outsourced parts of Being and Airbus in Mexico and Brazil, China did same from 1980s' for Boeing, it's kind of supply chain globalization strategic of Boeing, or just kind of trade compensation policy.
I will be honest, you seem a down to earth person, we have to see, realities.

China has a well developed aircraft industry, up to some way it is a bit a head of Brazil, not that much but it is in some way ahead.

With respect to Mexico it is ahead, but not as you might think.

What you go out of reality is Europe.

Eurofighter and Rafale are 4.5+ generation, the only thing that makes them a bit less advanced is lack of internal weapons bays and not having trapezoidal cross sections for stealth.


Chinese people tend to think Europe is behind China, but it is not.

J-20 true is a bit newer and stealthy aircraft.

Besides that, Rafale and Eurofighter supercruise, engine wise and electronics in Europe are not behind.

China is true now an aeronautical power, J-20 represents a modern fighter, but you overblown its importance.

Why Europe did not make a 5th generation?

The answer is similar to Brazil.

Military aircraft are expensive and do not make money.

I will give you a data
J-10 which is a F-16/Lavi type aircraft has around 450+ built

Brazil has made around 500 Preator
1626253994969.png


Just with Preator Embraer has made more modern jet aircraft

Now

A320

1626254134504.png


Airbus has made 9930 A-320 aircraft.

So tell me why do you think J-20 puts ahead China?

Your assessment is to Think China has advanced more than Europe, but the reality Europe has 3 jets which leave all the Su-27 copies made by China behind.

I can tell you something simple just the Phenom familily has more than 900 built

1626254409587.png



So the reality is Embraer is the third aircraft maker after Boeing and Airbus.

True J-20 can shoot down all the embraer aircraft or Airbus i just mention but the difference is China wants to have fighters, Brazil wants aircraft they can sell and make money and same is Airbus.

Europe will develop a 6th generation because the reality Rafale and Typhoon are really good, that F-22 only have a slight advantage.


J-20 very likely is not that superior to Rafale

Now, German radar-maker Hensoldt claims to have tracked two F-35s for 150 kilometers following the 2018 Berlin Air Show in Germany in late April of that year. The company’s passive radar system, named TwInvis, is but one of an emerging generation of sensors and processors so sensitive and powerful that it promises to find previously undetectable activities in a given airspace.

What happened in Berlin was the rare chance to subject the aircraft — stealthy design features, special coating and all — to a real-life trial to see if the promise of low observability still holds true.

Stories about the F-35-vs.-TwInvis matchup had been swirling in the media since Hensoldt set up shop on the tarmac at Berlin’s Schönefeld Airport, its sensor calibrated to track all flying demonstrations by the various aircraft on the flight line. Media reports had billed the system, which comes packed into a van or SUV and boasts a collapsible antenna, as a potential game changer in aerial defense.
 

MiG-29SMT

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J-20 stealth fighter is China’s independently developed all-weather, medium- and long-range, heavy supersonic stealth fighter with excellent air-to-air combat capability and good ground-to-sea precision strike capability.

January 11 marks the 10th anniversary of the first flight of the PLA’s fourth-generation fighter – J-20. At this juncture, a Chinese military flight recruitment propaganda video revealed that J-20 with the Chinese domestic engine WS-10C has been commissioned.

WS-10C engine uses Full Authority Digital Control (FADEC) technology to improve the pressurized combustion chamber, with a maximum thrust of more than 130 kN, which can meet some of the targets set by the J-20A when the project was established.

1627632714683.png

still too low 117S has 147 kN and still is behind pure propaganda
 
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MiG-29SMT

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A report issued by the American Research Institute in early April stated that the satellite photos taken in early April showed that the Chinese Air Force had already received the second brigade of J-20 stealth fighter jets, and it is speculated that there are currently about 100 J-20 stealth fighters in China.

According to the production capacity of Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group, another 200 J-20s are expected to be equipped to the Chinese air force within five years, and an average of about 50 of them will be produced each year in the next five years, reaching a total of 300 fighters, which is basically consistent with Jin Canrong’s view.

In the face of the suppression of 500 fifth-generation aircraft in the surrounding areas, in the future, the demand for J-20 of China will be about 400 to 500, and it takes about ten years in total to produce them.


As for the engine, a J-20 fighter with WS-10 “Taihang” engines was unveiled earlier this year. Prior to this, J-20 fighters had been using Russian-made AL-31F series aero engines.

It is reported that the WS-15 engine has entered the flight test stage. It is speculated that the life of the WS-15 engine is nearly 8500 hours, the maximum thrust is expected to reach more than 90 kN, and the maximum afterburner thrust can reach 150 kN, which is at the same level as the F-119 on the F-22, the world’s first five-generation aircraft, and is the guarantee for J-20 to achieve supersonic cruise and super-conventional maneuvering.

 

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