ISRO General News and Updates

[Chinmoy]

LOL, what?
....................

This...

a perigee (nearest point to earth) of 35,800 km and Apogee (nearest point to earth) of 36,092

Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.

 

[Flame Thrower]

This...



Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.

Sorry, I still didn't got your joke.

Pls explain in layman terms....

 

[Chinmoy]

Sorry, I still didn't got your joke.

Pls explain in layman terms....

Perigee is the nearest point to earth and Apogee is the farthest. Now just read what was written in the statement.

 

[indiatester]

This...



Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.

Good eye!!!...................

 

[Why so serious?]

Another success for ISRO: Brazil’s Amazonia-1 satellite to be launched on board PSLV in 2020
Ground stations in Brazil (Alcantara and Cuiaba) provided tracking support for Indian satellite (Chandrayaan-I, Megha Tropiques, MOM, and ASTROSAT) on commercial basis.

• By: Huma Siddiqui
  
• December 24, 2018 4:46 PM

ISRO already has the facility to impart training on how to operate the station and gather data through remote sensing, which will be used by Brazilian scientists for training.
After the recent successful launch of a Colombian satellite by Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) along with other countries onboard PSLV-C43, another South American country Brazil is getting ready for launching its satellite in 2020.

Confirming this to FE Online, a representative of the Brazilian Space Agency (AEB), said, “The launch with PSLV in 2020 is confirmed but the date and month has yet to be decided as it is dependent on the schedule of the Indian space agency ISRO.”

Adding, “Designed, assembled and tested in Brazil, the Amazonia-1 satellite will be the first satellite for Earth Observation. And, Amazonia-1 will be the primary payload, not a hitch-hike satellite.”


Sharing her views Dr Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan, Head, Nuclear and Space Policy Initiative, Observer Research Foundation (ORF) said, “The emerging trend of South American nations approaching ISRO may not necessarily be a result of India’s doing – it is more of a commercial consideration than otherwise. The fact that India offers credible economically feasible satellite launches is a big attraction for these countries.”

Adding “India’s successful Mars mission in 2014 in particular highlighted the growing sophistication of India’s space programme and has had the effect of pushing many countries to look at India as a possible destination for their satellite launches in a cost effective manner.”

According to Rajagopalan, “ISRO and its commercial arm Antrix Corporation Ltd could do more outreach to attract more international partners as the size of the global space market is likely to expand especially in Africa and South America. The global trends to breaking big satellite constellations also favour ISRO’s PSLV.”


As reported earlier, at the 6th BRICS summit in 2014, both India and Brazil had inked agreement for setting up a Brazilian earth station that will receive data from Indian satellites. ISRO already has the facility to impart training on how to operate the station and gather data through remote sensing, which will be used by Brazilian scientists for training.

Since early 2000s, many documents for space cooperation are signed at government-level and at space agency level between India and Brazil. Brazil received data from India’s Resourcesat-1 satellite during October 2009 to September 2013 and currently receiving data from Resourcesat-2 since October 2014.

Ground stations in Brazil (Alcantara and Cuiaba) provided tracking support for Indian satellite (Chandrayaan-I, Megha Tropiques, MOM, and ASTROSAT) on commercial basis.

According to the official website of The National Institute for Space Research (INPE) of Brazil, it has recently concluded the process for contracting the services with US company Spaceflight Inc that will put Amazonia-1, the first fully-designed earth observation satellite assembled and tested in Brazil, into orbit.

Amazonia-1 is currently in the pre-launch phase of the Integration and Testing Laboratory (LIT) of INPE. Outlining the purpose of the Amazonia-1, the INPE says that the images of the Brazilian satellite will be used to observe and monitor deforestation especially in the Amazonregion, as well as the diversified vegetation and agriculture throughout the national territory.

The Amazon Mission will provide remote sensing data (images) to observe and monitor deforestation especially in the Amazon region, as well as the diversified agriculture throughout the country with a high rate of revisit, seeking to work in synergy with existing environmental programs.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Another success for ISRO: Brazil’s Amazonia-1 satellite to be launched on board PSLV in 2020
Ground stations in Brazil (Alcantara and Cuiaba) provided tracking support for Indian satellite (Chandrayaan-I, Megha Tropiques, MOM, and ASTROSAT) on commercial basis.

• By: Huma Siddiqui
  
• December 24, 2018 4:46 PM

ISRO already has the facility to impart training on how to operate the station and gather data through remote sensing, which will be used by Brazilian scientists for training.
After the recent successful launch of a Colombian satellite by Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) along with other countries onboard PSLV-C43, another South American country Brazil is getting ready for launching its satellite in 2020.

Confirming this to FE Online, a representative of the Brazilian Space Agency (AEB), said, “The launch with PSLV in 2020 is confirmed but the date and month has yet to be decided as it is dependent on the schedule of the Indian space agency ISRO.”

Adding, “Designed, assembled and tested in Brazil, the Amazonia-1 satellite will be the first satellite for Earth Observation. And, Amazonia-1 will be the primary payload, not a hitch-hike satellite.”


Sharing her views Dr Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan, Head, Nuclear and Space Policy Initiative, Observer Research Foundation (ORF) said, “The emerging trend of South American nations approaching ISRO may not necessarily be a result of India’s doing – it is more of a commercial consideration than otherwise. The fact that India offers credible economically feasible satellite launches is a big attraction for these countries.”

Adding “India’s successful Mars mission in 2014 in particular highlighted the growing sophistication of India’s space programme and has had the effect of pushing many countries to look at India as a possible destination for their satellite launches in a cost effective manner.”

According to Rajagopalan, “ISRO and its commercial arm Antrix Corporation Ltd could do more outreach to attract more international partners as the size of the global space market is likely to expand especially in Africa and South America. The global trends to breaking big satellite constellations also favour ISRO’s PSLV.”


As reported earlier, at the 6th BRICS summit in 2014, both India and Brazil had inked agreement for setting up a Brazilian earth station that will receive data from Indian satellites. ISRO already has the facility to impart training on how to operate the station and gather data through remote sensing, which will be used by Brazilian scientists for training.

Since early 2000s, many documents for space cooperation are signed at government-level and at space agency level between India and Brazil. Brazil received data from India’s Resourcesat-1 satellite during October 2009 to September 2013 and currently receiving data from Resourcesat-2 since October 2014.

Ground stations in Brazil (Alcantara and Cuiaba) provided tracking support for Indian satellite (Chandrayaan-I, Megha Tropiques, MOM, and ASTROSAT) on commercial basis.

According to the official website of The National Institute for Space Research (INPE) of Brazil, it has recently concluded the process for contracting the services with US company Spaceflight Inc that will put Amazonia-1, the first fully-designed earth observation satellite assembled and tested in Brazil, into orbit.

Amazonia-1 is currently in the pre-launch phase of the Integration and Testing Laboratory (LIT) of INPE. Outlining the purpose of the Amazonia-1, the INPE says that the images of the Brazilian satellite will be used to observe and monitor deforestation especially in the Amazonregion, as well as the diversified vegetation and agriculture throughout the national territory.

The Amazon Mission will provide remote sensing data (images) to observe and monitor deforestation especially in the Amazon region, as well as the diversified agriculture throughout the country with a high rate of revisit, seeking to work in synergy with existing environmental programs.

Very happy to see that institution like ISRO has finally earned its name in the world, I just wish we could see the same result in OFB.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Very happy to see that institution like ISRO has finally earned its name in the world, I just wish we could see the same result in OFB.

PSUs often integrate their technologies into others.
Problem with us is that we are good at designing but we don't have that much of experience of metallurgy because we were not independent for 200 years to research on it.
So, we aren't upto top class in sectors where metallurgy dominates every aspect. Though, we are catching up technologically.
For market, they prefer best over good. We aren't best and can't tap market till we produce best.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

PSUs often integrate their technologies into others.
Problem with us is that we are good at designing but we don't have that much of experience of metallurgy because we were not independent for 200 years to research on it.
So, we aren't upto top class in sectors where metallurgy dominates every aspect. Though, we are catching up technologically.
For market, they prefer best over good. We aren't best and can't tap market till we produce best.

How many metallurgists in USA is 200 year old? Or in UK or Russia? All metallurgists are people and die in old age. New metallurgists replace them and have to gain knowledge from scratch, relearn and then continue

Also, regarding metallurgy knowledge progress, Most metallurgy till 1960-70 were simple alloys and could be easily replicated. It is the alloys after 1970 which were complicated due to specialised process. But that is not much time lost as many of these technology has been leapfrogged by reverse engineering of imports of TOT from Russia or even indigenous research.

 

[Why so serious?]

US startup fined $900,000 for launching rogue satellites on ISRO's PSLV in Jan
Firstpost • Dec 25, 2018 10:57 IST

By tech2 News Staff

If the American Federal Communications Commission (FCC) tells you not to do something — like launching satellites without their approval, for instance — it's probably in your best interest not to do that thing.

And if you ended up doing it anyway, as US-based startup Swarm Technologies did, you'll likely be hung up to dry and fined an inordinate amount of money — $900,000 in the case of Swarm Technologies, Quartz reported.

The American startup was fined for having launched four unauthorised satellites on an Indian Space Research Organisation 31-satellite rideshare mission in January 2018. Along with ISRO's 100th satellite to be launched into orbit, the mission also held room for 30 commercial satellites, coordinated by ISRO's commercial arm, Antrix Corporation.

Swarm's four 'SpaceBEE' satellites were deployed on ISRO's PSLV rocket despite having its application for launch denied by the FCC a month earlier.

The regulators expressed that the satellites were far too small to be detected in space by terrestrial detectors, threatening the many other satellites in orbit with a higher risk of colliding into them.

The four SpaceBEEs under in question. Image courtesy: Swarm Technologies

An investigation into Swarm Technologies began in March earlier this year, in which the FCC dug up more surprises. The FCC discovered quite a few "unauthorised weather balloon-to-ground station tests and unauthorised tests of its satellite and ground station equipment" following the launch of Swarm's SpaceBEEs.

Over the course of FCC's investigation, the agency gave Swarm approval to start communicating with their satellites in August this year. It also allowed a second, approved launch of the ultra-small satellites in November — this time, on a SpaceX rocket. This, because despite the FCC’s initial concerns, it was possible for Swarm's SpaceBEEs to be detected consistently by commercial radar stations since their (unlawful) January launch, which was the crux of FCC's concerns about the satellites, to begin with.


However, Swarm's illegal launch came home to roost in a case that was settled by them paying a hefty $900,000-penalty to the FCC. This, the FCC saidin a statement, was because the “unauthorised deployment and operation of satellites" poses a risk of "satellite collisions and radio frequency interference, threatening critical commercial and government satellite operations.”

ISRO's launch roster with four SpaceBEE satellites on the PSLV-C40 mission 12 January 2018. Image courtesy: ISRO

Interestingly, Swarm received grants (including one from the American government's National Space Foundation (NSF)) for their technology.

According to the grant, the satellites commissioned by the NSF were intended to support “the world’s smallest two-way communications satellites and associated ground hardware,” with applications focussed in “Internet of Things” devices.

Given the NSF's investment in the “unique launch economics afforded by the miniaturised satellites,” as the grant award calls it, funding from the American government appears to have played a part in the unauthorised satellites' launch.

Swarm appears to be at the tail end of its controversy and gotten away with having four illegally-launched satellites orbiting Earth for all intents and purposes for the time being. But, another takeaway from the episode was the lack of communication between two closely-related arms of the US government, the FCC and the NSF.

With space startups burgeoning in the US, particularly in Silicon Valley, the case has thrown a spotlight on the approaches taken by the US government to regulate space. Both US lawmakers and the Trump administration have announced that they are working to address this gap.

Might Trump put his new Space Command to the task of regulating launch rosters too? We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

But that is not much time lost as many of these technology has been leapfrogged by reverse engineering of imports of TOT from Russia or even indigenous research.

This is the thing which can't be reverse engineered simply that you think.
Chemical process aren't simple to calculate unlike mathematical equations. West & Russia have been working on this stuff since WW1. And if India had any significant and valuable transfer of process knowhow from Russia, we wouldn't have been struggling with Kaveri for that long.

If you've worked in related company, you'd know.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

This is the thing which can't be reverse engineered simply that you think.
Chemical process aren't simple to calculate unlike mathematical equations. West & Russia have been working on this stuff since WW1. And if India had any significant and valuable transfer of process knowhow from Russia, we wouldn't have been struggling with Kaveri for that long.

If you've worked in related company, you'd know.

Do you work with related companies? Also, who told you that metallurgy is the problem of Kaveri engine?

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Do you work with related companies?

Yeah we do, besides many imported HAS & exotic metals, I've did with many materials we weren't told about much except the fabrication procedure government wanted for us.
And trust me, you can never find out the complete composition of material received, no matter what you use. Over that, utilized methods affect properties.

Also, who told you that metallurgy is the problem of Kaveri engine?

One thing I know for sure that hot corrosion & thermal creep are dominating issues.

 

[happylion]

Do you work with related companies? Also, who told you that metallurgy is the problem of Kaveri engine?

Lets say that I have heard that indeed that it is sort of the problem. Not the metallurgical process but the abilty to produce small aliquotes for testing and for the small limnted amountsneeded for production without firm orders(chicken and the egg) . No one is interested in preparing small batches. A very sad situation.You want small batches you pay for a full run and that is why engine development cost billions. Ask for one batch and you get a Babu breathing down your neck and then CAG

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Lets say that I have heard that indeed that it is sort of the problem. Not the metallurgical process but the abilty to produce small aliquotes for testing and for the small limnted amountsneeded for production without firm orders(chicken and the egg) . No one is interested in preparing small batches. A very sad situation.You want small batches you pay for a full run and that is why engine development cost billions. Ask for one batch and you get a Babu breathing down your neck and then CAG

Again, the problem of funding is political not metallurgical. So, you are coming back to my point. I do know that every run costs full price as machines are meant for mass production, not small batch production. Hence even if you want small batch, the entire lot has to be produced. But these are all funding issue and only takes reasonable government

Yeah we do, besides many imported HAS & exotic metals, I've did with many materials we weren't told about much except the fabrication procedure government wanted for us.
And trust me, you can never find out the complete composition of material received, no matter what you use. Over that, utilized methods affect properties.

One thing I know for sure that hot corrosion & thermal creep are dominating issues.

We can find out exact composition of all elements by chemical analysis to very high degree of certainty ( at least upto 0.1%).

Corrosion and thermal creep are big issues in every engine. But how do you know that it is the reason for Kaveri's failure? Kaveri was giving good dry runs and had reverberation problem in A/B mode. That is why the dry Kaveri is considered as fit and is being used for Ghatak drones.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Again, the problem of funding is political not metallurgical. So, you are coming back to my point. I do know that every run costs full price as machines are meant for mass production, not small batch production. Hence even if you want small batch, the entire lot has to be produced. But these are all funding issue and only takes reasonable government

I'm not asking to state the problem of funding which was holding back DMRL for decades, if we have to start with it today, we will comfortably take a decade to get on superalloys.
Unlike our single use rockets, turbofans are operated thousands of times in life of planes. They need longer lives.

And similarly, unlike ISRO's low cost services where only concern is to throw the stuff at required height and velocity, ordnance needs to be best in its class, should have advantageous and quality is far more important than cost.

All I'm saying that its not fair to compare PSUs. Set of jobs they have to perform are different concerns. In space launch business, we are winning because of cost because its only thing which matters here.
@Bhurki @indiatester

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I'm not asking to state the problem of funding which was holding back DMRL for decades, if we have to start with it today, we will comfortably take a decade to get on superalloys.
Unlike our single use rockets, turbofans are operated thousands of times in life of planes. They need longer lives.

India is not starting from now. India had got ToT for making R25B engines for MiG21bison planes in 1970s. India then started researching on SC, DS and various alloys and had developed many of them by 1990s. India has published many research papers on DS and SC alloys in 1990s time which you can find in the net.

Indian turbofan engine programme started in 1996 when India started making Kaveri. Before Kaveri, India had programme of making turbojet engines in 1989-1995. India then entered ToT with Russia for Su30 and its engine Al31F. Russia has give full ToT for Al31F engine in 2015 and as of now India makes Al31F engine made of 1st generation DS alloy fully indigenously.

Kaveri engines have received ample backing from NDA in 1998-2004 and eve continued till 2006 with similar momentum. In 2006, UPA changed the specifications of Kaveri to make it similar to F414 instead of F404 and in 2007 the funding was cut by UPA giving excuses that engine programme is not going in right direction. The funding was revived in 2014 when Modi govt again gave funding for it.

Hence, considering the fact that India had turbojet technology, older generation Turbofan technology and even developed dry variant of Kaveri turbofan and its naval variant turbofan, it will not need decades of time to get Kaveri. Considering even the fruitful time spent with full govt backing, India has had about 12 years of developmental time and additional ToT from Russia. This means that Kaveri engine should be ready in few years

And similarly, unlike ISRO's low cost services where only concern is to throw the stuff at required height and velocity, ordnance needs to be best in its class, should have advantageous and quality is far more important than cost.

Again, you are not understanding the full meaning of cost. Cost indirectly implies heavy labour requirement and hence time consumption. Ordnance require to be made in large quantity to be effective. There is no Brahmastra which is of highest quality and can do all the job by itself. Quality multiplied by Quantity (Quality X Quantity) is the right method of judging effectiveness. So, every item must have sufficient quality/technology as well as be able to manufacture quickly

Even in case of ISRO, there is certain requirement of quality such as cryogenic engine. India could simply make a bulk launcher like the SATURN launcher but that increased the cost drastically. Even in this field, India neds to balance Quality and Quantity to get things done most efficiently. India, fr example, uses cheap propellant in its launchers which are more bulky than the expensive propellants used by Arianespace. Though this increases the size of the rocket relative to payload, the overall cost reduces. But use of cryogenic engines on the other hand lowers both cost and size and hence is preferred.

All I'm saying that its not fair to compare PSUs. Set of jobs they have to perform are different concerns. In space launch business, we are winning because of cost because its only thing which matters here.
@Bhurki @indiatester

We are winning in space business because there is not much to do here and hence one does not need much time to develop all needed technology. Those who develop early will quicly reach saturation level and hence not maintain a big edge over the newcomer. This reduces the scope for having significant technology lag and hence prevents significant efficiency difference with competitor which combined with low labour cost, makes India effective

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Agreed partially but my point remains

India is not starting from now. India had got ToT for making R25B engines for MiG21bison planes in 1970s. India then started researching on SC, DS and various alloys and had developed many of them by 1990s. India has published many research papers on DS and SC alloys in 1990s time which you can find in the net.

Indian turbofan engine programme started in 1996 when India started making Kaveri. Before Kaveri, India had programme of making turbojet engines in 1989-1995. India then entered ToT with Russia for Su30 and its engine Al31F. Russia has give full ToT for Al31F engine in 2015 and as of now India makes Al31F engine made of 1st generation DS alloy fully indigenously.

Kaveri engines have received ample backing from NDA in 1998-2004 and eve continued till 2006 with similar momentum. In 2006, UPA changed the specifications of Kaveri to make it similar to F414 instead of F404 and in 2007 the funding was cut by UPA giving excuses that engine programme is not going in right direction. The funding was revived in 2014 when Modi govt again gave funding for it.

Hence, considering the fact that India had turbojet technology, older generation Turbofan technology and even developed dry variant of Kaveri turbofan and its naval variant turbofan, it will not need decades of time to get Kaveri. Considering even the fruitful time spent with full govt backing, India has had about 12 years of developmental time and additional ToT from Russia. This means that Kaveri engine should be ready in few years

Indeed we will get it in few years but we had to struggle for long. On the other hand, when it comes, Kaveri would have been among most advanced turbofans in world.

We got ToT from Russia for sure but for engines, not much of material.
We need to master single crystal nickel based superalloys. DMRL is making efforts still.
Anyways, I was using Kaveri just as an example.

Again, you are not understanding the full meaning of cost. Cost indirectly implies heavy labour requirement and hence time consumption. Ordnance require to be made in large quantity to be effective. There is no Brahmastra which is of highest quality and can do all the job by itself. Quality multiplied by Quantity (Quality X Quantity) is the right method of judging effectiveness. So, every item must have sufficient quality/technology as well as be able to manufacture quickly

Even in case of ISRO, there is certain requirement of quality such as cryogenic engine. India could simply make a bulk launcher like the SATURN launcher but that increased the cost drastically. Even in this field, India neds to balance Quality and Quantity to get things done most efficiently. India, fr example, uses cheap propellant in its launchers which are more bulky than the expensive propellants used by Arianespace. Though this increases the size of the rocket relative to payload, the overall cost reduces. But use of cryogenic engines on the other hand lowers both cost and size and hence is preferred.


We are winning in space business because there is not much to do here and hence one does not need much time to develop all needed technology. Those who develop early will quicly reach saturation level and hence not maintain a big edge over the newcomer. This reduces the scope for having significant technology lag and hence prevents significant efficiency difference with competitor which combined with low labour cost, makes India effective

You are actually confusing between quality & productivity (and I'm essentially restricting it to business here because Indian Defense Industry itself has lot of unsung milestones).

On customer's end, they don't expect anything more than us launching their satellites in orbits accurately & safely. If these things are ensures, they'd run for reduced cost because space launch services cost in dozens & hundreds millions.
In defence industry, cost factor is pushed back and quality comes into picture. And defence industry has a much broader definition of quality than that in satellite launch service.
Unlike space where India is one of very few space fairing nations, dozens of countries invest considerably in their defence sectors. And this hell of competition is the reason that Indian Defense exports aren't that good as compared to ISRO's services.

 

[Chinmoy]

Agreed partially but my point remains

Indeed we will get it in few years but we had to struggle for long. On the other hand, when it comes, Kaveri would have been among most advanced turbofans in world.

We got ToT from Russia for sure but for engines, not much of material.
We need to master single crystal nickel based superalloys. DMRL is making efforts still.
Anyways, I was using Kaveri just as an example.


You are actually confusing between quality & productivity (and I'm essentially restricting it to business here because Indian Defense Industry itself has lot of unsung milestones).

On customer's end, they don't expect anything more than us launching their satellites in orbits accurately & safely. If these things are ensures, they'd run for reduced cost because space launch services cost in dozens & hundreds millions.
In defence industry, cost factor is pushed back and quality comes into picture. And defence industry has a much broader definition of quality than that in satellite launch service.
Unlike space where India is one of very few space fairing nations, dozens of countries invest considerably in their defence sectors. And this hell of competition is the reason that Indian Defense exports aren't that good as compared to ISRO's services.

Bro... You are doing harm to this thread by helping to derail it.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Bro... You are doing harm to this thread by helping to derail it.

Don't worry, it was a short lived argument which didn't even cover. We're done now.

 

[Chinmoy]

Don't worry, it was a short lived argument which didn't even cover. We're done now.

Just wait............. You will know.. :biggrin2: