INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

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Indian Navy needs no less than 4 carriers, The Idea of super-carrier is best not taken into consideration as we are not yet at that economical level nor have construction facility to replenish our loses ..

Sinking of carriers in wartime is a very real possibility, During 1971 we escape that because of the cleverness of Vice Admiral Krishnan ..
Sinking a super carrier is not easy- It can be damaged and put out of action- But sinking would require heavy concentrated attacks by heavy missiles like Brahmos- and 650mm super torpedo- Russians plan to use nuclear 450kt warhead 650mm torpedo for sinking American super carrier-

The structure of the ship is designed to take multiple hits and survive like Battleships of the past- Not as good as Battleship but similar principal is used-

In 1965 and 1971 we did not have proper submarine defense- So our carrier remained vulnerable- I think each carrier battle group requires 2 Nuclear attack submarines- 3 destroyer escorts for anti submarine operations- Plus the carrier Itself has lost of anti-submarine helicopters-

I think Navy should now concentrate on making 4 70000ton class Nuclear carriers with CATOBAR configuration- and 8 Nuclear attack submarine would be needed to defend them-
 

Kunal Biswas

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A single mishaps or a missile ( Of any dimension and size ) hit will put anything let it be a small corvette to a Aircraft carrier to docks for months, It does not necessarily have to be sunk to tip the balance of force .

What you suggest is not economically possible as of now, It takes 20 times the amount to keep things operational than just constructing them, IN strive for dedicated flexible Carrier groups in regional waters for multi-prong attacks ..
 

Pulkit

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A single mishaps or a missile ( Of any dimension and size ) hit will put anything let it be a small corvette to a Aircraft carrier to docks for months, It does not necessarily have to be sunk to tip the balance of force .

What you suggest is not economically possible as of now, It takes 20 times the amount to keep things operational than just constructing them, IN strive for dedicated flexible Carrier groups in regional waters for multi-prong attacks ..
Aircraft Carriers have there own Pros and cons.
India needs 3-4 Aircraft carriers and at least 1 of them must be Nuclear and remaining 3 conventional. Its more expensive to Build nuclear AC than the conventional so we can go for more conventional ones than Nuclear.
There cost gets compensated with the ability to multiply force they being force multipliers.
Operational Cost is quite hefty but they importance/requirement is there. It helps in projecting Power in the region.

In addition to this we must add few Nuclear Submarines (atleast 3) to our fleet.

If I am correct do we have enough funds/Budget to procure these?
 

indiandefencefan

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Aircraft Carriers have there own Pros and cons.
India needs 3-4 Aircraft carriers and at least 1 of them must be Nuclear and remaining 3 conventional. Its more expensive to Build nuclear AC than the conventional so we can go for more conventional ones than Nuclear.
There cost gets compensated with the ability to multiply force they being force multipliers.
Operational Cost is quite hefty but they importance/requirement is there. It helps in projecting Power in the region.

In addition to this we must add few Nuclear Submarines (atleast 3) to our fleet.

If I am correct do we have enough funds/Budget to procure these?
Requirements are subjective. The more the merrier.

As far as budget is concerned .......... we don't have the money to procure these without compromising other aspects of the fleet. Hence the figure of 4 ACs will not come to fruition before 2035 at the minimum. A more realistic date for 4 operational ACs will be 2040.

INS Vikrant inducted by 2018. Operational by 2022.
INS Vishal inducted by 2030. Operational by 2032.
IAC 3 should be completed by late 2030s. (If consrruction begins in late 2020s)

In the case of nuclear subs the govt. is keeping quite but I would expect 6 SSBNs and 6SSNs constructed in India by 2040 given the approx. time it takes for shipyards to construct subs.
 

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The Southern Command has only the Antonov An-32 and Mil Mi-8, and of these are are around 100 and 400 respectively in the entire IAF, so we can presume that the Southern Command has 500 aircraft.

The Shtorm class of supercarriers would be able to carry around ninety aircraft.

I think two Shtorms would be able to carry 180 aircraft, and twenty frigates/destroyers should be able to carry around 60 aircraft. i.e. 240 aircraft. Three Landing Platform Helicopters(LPH) can then provide some more space (30 = 270).

South Korea probably only has space for around 40 aircraft actively on its navy, yet the Navy has around 70 aircraft, so I will then presume that the remaining aircraft in South India can be kept in reserve or sent to a more northern command.

I think India should order the two new shtorm carriers with the idea of merging the air force into the navy in mind, in that any aircraft bought would cater for both the navy and the air force too. There shouldn't be any new aircraft ordered that can't operate off ships.

The land army should be split into paramilitary/gendamerie and marines; the latter would be absorbed into the marines aspect of the navy and should be comfortable with working on naval duties predominantly.
:facepalm:
India has only regional interest and not some wacko theory of world domination and policing. Our interest are currently securing Indian Ocean, thus 4 Carriers are enough for that. Further we don't need super carriers as our economy won't be able to digest the expenditure of it. Our navy won't be having any more than 6 CBG in near future, which means at max 6 ACs at best, which is highly unlikely considering peacetime also has side-effects.

LPD although can be sought for those extra 2 ACs which surely we are going to build. At max 4 of them.

If we acquire 4 ACs, each with at least 56 jets on board, that's enough for sending the message to any nation that "think twice" before doing something reckless. Besides we are concentrating on gaining more support vessels, which lay's out the basic foundation of a capable blue water navy.
 

Pulkit

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Requirements are subjective. The more the merrier.

As far as budget is concerned .......... we don't have the money to procure these without compromising other aspects of the fleet. Hence the figure of 4 ACs will not come to fruition before 2035 at the minimum. A more realistic date for 4 operational ACs will be 2040.

INS Vikrant inducted by 2018. Operational by 2022.
INS Vishal inducted by 2030. Operational by 2032.
IAC 3 should be completed by late 2030s. (If consrruction begins in late 2020s)

In the case of nuclear subs the govt. is keeping quite but I would expect 6 SSBNs and 6SSNs constructed in India by 2040 given the approx. time it takes for shipyards to construct subs.
That's is really a difficult timeline.
I was hoping 4 AC by the end of 2030 and not 2040.
The more the merrier is not true in the case of AC building cost is alot but maintenance cost is way higher ....
With the budget allocated to defense it wont be possible to maintain maore than 4 AC.
Again the subs by 2040 is of no use we much accelerate it and achieve the numebrs by 2030. With retirement of few Subs we need to build Subs are a greater pace.

2030 timeline is difficult but not unrealistic.
 

scatterStorm

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Indian navy should rather go in for design optimization of Vikrant Class IAC and field at least 4 or 5 before we have the economical muscle to afford a super carrier. Optimization in design could be in space management to accommodate more fighters jets which the super carriers offer. I read somewhere that IAC 1 being smaller than INS Vikramaditya will carry more fighter jets, that means we have learnt how to optimize the design and can go for further enhancements.
Modular based ship design I guess, that's what ford class carrier has. Which implies any compartment of the ship can be changed to accommodate more space.
 

indiandefencefan

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That's is really a difficult timeline.
I was hoping 4 AC by the end of 2030 and not 2040.
The more the merrier is not true in the case of AC building cost is alot but maintenance cost is way higher ....
With the budget allocated to defense it wont be possible to maintain maore than 4 AC.
Again the subs by 2040 is of no use we much accelerate it and achieve the numebrs by 2030. With retirement of few Subs we need to build Subs are a greater pace.

2030 timeline is difficult but not unrealistic.
Nope, the 2030 timeline is very much unrealistic in case of ACs.

INS Vikrant's construction was started in 2009. And is likely to be finished next year. That is 9 years.
Even if we assume the pace increases, IAC 2&3 are much larger ships so expect similar production times.
Then add bureaucratic delays and time taken to design the ships.

As for subs as I said the govt. is keeping quite but 6 SSBNs can quite be there in 2030. Not likely for the SSNs because they are in early stages of design and it might take upto 5 more years for them to be designed after which production will begin most likely 2-3 at a time.
 

Pulkit

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Nope, the 2030 timeline is very much unrealistic in case of ACs.

INS Vikrant's construction was started in 2009. And is likely to be finished next year. That is 9 years.
Even if we assume the pace increases, IAC 2&3 are much larger ships so expect similar production times.
Then add bureaucratic delays and time taken to design the ships.

As for subs as I said the govt. is keeping quite but 6 SSBNs can quite be there in 2030. Not likely for the SSNs because they are in early stages of design and it might take upto 5 more years for them to be designed after which production will begin most likely 2-3 at a time.
In terms of AC I was hoping they build the same class AC which we are currently building.This will save alot of time in terms of design and issue resolution ,procurement of material etc.
Its a huge body therefore it is true that it will not be same but identical is possible . This way we can save alot of Money and time.

SSNs -->I believe a single SSN can be built in a time frame if 4-5 years and if we are building 6 then it would be like a new SSN after every 1.5 year after initial 5 years . This means it will take 13 years to build 6 SSN approx.

bureaucratic delays is something which have been trouble always in the past and future.
 

Thrishul

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That's is really a difficult timeline.
I was hoping 4 AC by the end of 2030 and not 2040.
The more the merrier is not true in the case of AC building cost is alot but maintenance cost is way higher ....
With the budget allocated to defense it wont be possible to maintain maore than 4 AC.
Again the subs by 2040 is of no use we much accelerate it and achieve the numebrs by 2030. With retirement of few Subs we need to build Subs are a greater pace.

2030 timeline is difficult but not unrealistic.
Well it is possible to have more carriers but they will be escort carriers.
The Juan Carlos class are classified as VSTOL carriers in the Spanish navy.
If we were to modify them with angled flight decks and trap wire systems they are large enough to operate the Tejas-N.
 

Pulkit

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Well it is possible to have more carriers but they will be escort carriers.
The Juan Carlos class are classified as VSTOL carriers in the Spanish navy.
If we were to modify them with angled flight decks and trap wire systems they are large enough to operate the Tejas-N.
Not sure of it being large enough to operate Tejas N.
Let the Tejas N be finalized first.

Why are you leaning towards Juan Carlos Class here?

I will like to have another 40,000 metric tons ship.
 

captscooby81

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As we speak there is one SSN right now in construction if i am not wrong being done by L&T details about this was quoted here in DFI by some member forgotten which thread it was ..

Nope, the 2030 timeline is very much unrealistic in case of ACs.

INS Vikrant's construction was started in 2009. And is likely to be finished next year. That is 9 years.
Even if we assume the pace increases, IAC 2&3 are much larger ships so expect similar production times.
Then add bureaucratic delays and time taken to design the ships.

As for subs as I said the govt. is keeping quite but 6 SSBNs can quite be there in 2030. Not likely for the SSNs because they are in early stages of design and it might take upto 5 more years for them to be designed after which production will begin most likely 2-3 at a time.
In terms of AC I was hoping they build the same class AC which we are currently building.This will save alot of time in terms of design and issue resolution ,procurement of material etc.
Its a huge body therefore it is true that it will not be same but identical is possible . This way we can save alot of Money and time.

SSNs -->I believe a single SSN can be built in a time frame if 4-5 years and if we are building 6 then it would be like a new SSN after every 1.5 year after initial 5 years . This means it will take 13 years to build 6 SSN approx.

bureaucratic delays is something which have been trouble always in the past and future.
 

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Close interaction with allies gives Indian Navy an edge; Beijing must be wary of its presence in South China Sea
Much has been written by experts on the perceived isolation of India at the recent Belt and Road conference in China. One set of strategic analysts suggest that we could have effectively voiced our concerns at the conference rather than refusing to attend. As always, multiple viewpoints are held by those who have neither the responsibility to face the repercussions of their suggestions, nor the courage to admit that they were wrong in assessing the situation.
Governments are equipped to take decisions based on historic and long-term perspectives of problems. Irrespective of how they arrive at a decision — which is more often by consensus resulting from inputs received from a wide array of competent specialists and those on the ground — they are accountable for their actions.
In the extant case, most experts tend to give China the edge on almost all actions taken by Xi Jinping. It is not often that decisions and actions taken by the Indian government are appreciated and supported.
Having been associated with maritime affairs and forging relations with littoral nations, this article attempts to discuss just one aspect of maritime-related activities and initiatives, while being fully aware that there are several others that need elaboration to substantiate my assertion.
While regular exercises with the US, Japan, France, Russia and Australia are known to us, a lesser known fact is that Singapore has had close maritime relations with India for many decades. The latest joint exercise between the two navies is currently in progress in the South China Sea.
Indian naval presence in South China Sea is a regular feature in annual deployments to the East. This is often forgotten when the occasional Chinese ship is deployed in our backyard. The presence of a Chinese submarine in our neighbourhood is projected as a military disaster by those who are unaware that submarines in peace time are often deployed in areas that become relevant during war. This is a universally accepted and practised concept, which ipso facto justifies the very induction of these stealth platforms. There are no exceptions to this rule.
The Chinese aircraft carrier programme has been in the news. That Indians have been in this business for over five decades is invariably glossed over. Why is it relevant?
Just preparing pilots for carrier operations demands intense basic training ashore under simulated conditions, followed by a crucial phase of training them to operate at sea with confidence on a moving platform. Consolidation in day operation in varying visibility and weather conditions is followed by dusk operations and night flying. Dark night operations with minimum deck lighting leads to 24/7 combat flying with appropriate payload.
Emergency drills on board to handle aircraft engine failures, crash on deck, and scores of other incidents are mandatory processes. Gaining proficiency in carrier flying thus requires time and a generation of pilots need to continuously hone their skills before they can claim full combat readiness.
The ship too needs to attain combat readiness, while flight operations of fixed and rotary wing aircraft are progressing apace. She has to train her aircraft controllers, flight deck personnel, sensors and weapons crew, engineering ,electrical and metrological departments and logistics and medical sections.
That our carrier-borne teams have performed consistently well, as reflected while operating with other advanced navies, is attributed to decades of experience hard-gained by the integrated crew.
And now the piece de resistance. China, not having had this background, realised early in their carrier induction cycle that training of aviation branch technical sailors and officers by itself was a challenge that needed resolution. In 2005, they made a request to the Indian government to provide access to a team of Chinese navy aviators lead by an admiral to visit our aviation training facilities at Kochi.
Their request was granted and a team arrived at Kochi to see class room instructions imparted to our sailors. This was followed by discussions on the training methodology. The admiral was completely and visibly impressed that our sailors were being taught in English and that they were proficient enough to handle their classroom instructions on relatively advanced and scientifically designed computer assisted courses. He found that the Russian method of imparting instructions, and indeed the subjects being taught, were in variance, since Carrier flying was a relatively new subject for the Russians who were still evolving their syllabus.
The Indian Navy had stolen a march with knowledge gained through close interaction with leading carrier operating navies, such as the Royal British Navy, the French Navy and the US Navy over five decades of combat flying.
The Chinese respect our combat skills at sea more than any other navy. Our regular presence in the disputed South China Sea is a challenge they have had to live with, in the backdrop of their rejection of the recent judgement of ICJ on Chinese claims in the South China Sea.
If China continues to challenge the rights of those who have ratified the United Nations convention of the laws of the seas of which it too is a signatory, how can it be trusted to honour the rights of those who participate in the complex concept of Belt and Road initiatives, which have the potential of violating basic rights of participating nations?
There are chinks in the Chinese armour.
The author is a former commandant, National Defence Academy (NDA), and flag officer commanding-in-chief of Southern Naval Command
#China #Chinese navy
#Connectthedots #Indian navy
#Royal british navy #Singapore
#South china sea
Published Date: May 24, 2017 04:19 pm | Updated Date: May 24, 2017 04:19 pm


Source Link: http://www.firstpost.com/india/clos...-its-presence-in-south-china-sea-3476910.html
 

Dharmapalas

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Aircraft Carriers have there own Pros and cons.
India needs 3-4 Aircraft carriers and at least 1 of them must be Nuclear and remaining 3 conventional. Its more expensive to Build nuclear AC than the conventional so we can go for more conventional ones than Nuclear.
There cost gets compensated with the ability to multiply force they being force multipliers.
Operational Cost is quite hefty but they importance/requirement is there. It helps in projecting Power in the region.

In addition to this we must add few Nuclear Submarines (atleast 3) to our fleet.

If I am correct do we have enough funds/Budget to procure these?
Why do they need a nuclear one?

Is India expecting to send a naval force to far away waters?
 

Filtercoffee

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Not sure of it being large enough to operate Tejas N.
Let the Tejas N be finalized first.

Why are you leaning towards Juan Carlos Class here?

I will like to have another 40,000 metric tons ship.
Juan Carlos is a heavy class, as much as Viraat. We need San-Antonio since we have an American LPD in service or Dokdo which is lighter, and can accomadate Tejas for CAS.
 
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Pulkit

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Why do they need a nuclear one?

Is India expecting to send a naval force to far away waters?
Why one nuclear?
With Nuclear you get large number of benefits.
Its like having a conventional Sub on one side and nuclear sub on another.

At the time of war a nuclear powered AC will have the obvious advantages.
No need to refill, unlimited Range etc.
No currently India is not planning to send any to far away waters but having one of nuclear power will be of great advantage.
 

Pulkit

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As we speak there is one SSN right now in construction if i am not wrong being done by L&T details about this was quoted here in DFI by some member forgotten which thread it was ..
I could not find any information in reference to this.
 

Pulkit

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Juan Carlos is a heavy class, as much as Viraat. We need San-Antonio since we have an American LPD in service or Dokdo which is lighter, and can accomadate Tejas for CAS.
"we have an American LPD in service" ????what are you referring here?

I will say we can go for another Vikrant Class AC.
 

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