INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

[hello_10]

india is not in a position to wait as our strength is decreasing every day
besides from rising costs the delay is irking indian defense ministry

and thats what the topic of discussion, why can't any part of the world complete big defense projects within time line, with proposed cost? and also, how this so much discussed INS Vikramaditya offered higher cost escalation and time delay, as compare to Indian own IAC project, and also while comparing it to British's HMS which was also offered to India one time???? and here, you at least getting this Vikramaditya by 2013, for $2.3billion, while your own IAC would now come in operation by 2018, for at least $3.0billion, if not more, and IAC and that British HMS both would now come in operation by 2020+, as per the recent news on this page???? so how opting INS Vikramaditya reduced Indian strength this way, considering cost escalation and delays as per your question. and hence, how Indian own IAC project or British HMS could enhance Indian strength this way, for so high cost and proposed induction by 2020+???????

lets find out, how exactly Indian Air Force and IN suffered reduction in their strength due to delays and cost escalation of key defence deals......

=> Navy: many people here might be hardly in 20s and I remember Vajpayee government signed Project 75I for 6 Scorpion Submarines deals for $1.9billions with France in 2004, which was to be supplied from 2008, as per the deal signed in 2004. and today its Cost has gone well above $5.0billions, and many doubt that you would get them for even $8.0bil also..... France has shown its unwillingness of transferring key technologies of these Submarines in late 2000s, and you would now get these Submarines from 2015 onwards, if not more, and full tech transfer would never be possible. and the result is, India is now on the stage of having the lesser submarines than Pakistan by 2015, after retirement of few old submarines, this biggest arm of Navy, the submarines. and even right now, your Top Gun submarine is Akula-2 which was signed with Russia as secret deal, with hopefully 3 more of this type, with russian upgrades of Indian old submarines to keep them working till end of this decade to keep IN maintain superiority over Pakistan till 2020 ......

=> Air Force: similarly, about aircrafts, then check how things worked for this M-MRCA deal? it was proposed for $10bil for 126 aircrafts as per its tender in 2010 itself, but now this whole project will cost has been escalated to over $20bil for Rafale within 2 years, if not more, the lowest bidder itself. while SU30mki for hardly $100mil each is fit in comparison to Rafale, with full tech transfer from raw to product, and it works for IAF as mainly Air Dominance while Rafale will do its work as Multi Role, but both are fit in comparison, both 4++ front line aircrafts of world. while Mig29Ks for hardly $40mil each is possible only from Russia. and about delays? this M-MRCA deal is open from 2008 and even if you get Rafale by even 2015 onward, you will be lucky. ....... also I remember, this M-MRCA deal was opened since 2008, when only Mig29VOT and Mirage 2000-5 mk2 were under consideration, while this deal would now be signed by 2013, and these aircrafts would be delivered from 2016 onwards, if not more, as IAF is more willing to negotiate for a Rafale F4 or at least Rafale F3+ type upgraded model, more stealthy than the current Rafale F3 proposed for the Brazilian tender....... IAF wants it at least as much stealthy as Super Sukhoi Su30mki...... :ranger:

=> Army: if we discuss Tanks, the main arm of army, then have a look on the capabilities of Indian front line tanks as compare to T90??????? T-90s are the best Russian tanks, and India did get enough tech transfer of it, and hopefully 100% tech transfer by end of this decade. otherwise see how even 70% tech transfer of Rafale is appreciated by India. while from US, there is just 'no' technology transfer

(and yes military strength is more than tanks, aircrafts, submarines, ACs etc. like missiles like Brahmos and proposed S-400 for India, which we heard that India has already got it in over 6 regiments, as confidential deal, same as S-300. bla bla.....)

then how Russia, as an arm supplier, was behind any reduction of Indian Military Strength and cost escalation, and how the same could be improved/enhanced by having more reliance on other defence suppliers including on France, this way??????? :fishing:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

and thats what the topic of discussion, why can't any part of the world complete big defense projects within time line, with proposed cost? and also, how this so much discussed INS Vikramaditya offered higher cost escalation and time delay, as compare to Indian own IAC project, and also while comparing it to British's HMS which was also offered to India one time???? and here, you at least getting this Vikramaditya by 2013, for $2.3billion, while your own IAC would now come in operation by 2018, for at least $3.0billion, if not more, and IAC and that British HMS both would now come in operation by 2020+, as per the recent news on this page???? so how opting INS Vikramaditya reduced Indian strength this way, considering cost escalation and delays as per your question. and hence, how Indian own IAC project or British HMS could enhance Indian strength this way, for so high cost and proposed induction by 2020+???????

Indian members have been making heavy noise on the delivery and cost of INS Vikramaditya, which was initially signed for around $800mil and was to be delivered by 2008, as per the contract signed, if i remember. and now it has final cost at $2.3billion and would come in operation by 2013, has already completed its flight tests of Mig29s....... but it will now be interesting to see how India itself ends up with their home made IAC-1 and 2. IAC-1 was itself to be made for $1.0billion and was to be delivered by 2012, but now I find its cost to be at least $2.5bil, if not more, and to be delivered by 2018, as above, if not more

Your Point being.. ??

 

[drkrn]

and thats what the topic of discussion, why can't any part of the world complete big defense projects within time line, with proposed cost? and also, how this so much discussed INS Vikramaditya offered higher cost escalation and time delay, as compare to Indian own IAC project, and also while comparing it to British's HMS which was also offered to India one time???? and here, you at least getting this Vikramaditya by 2013, for $2.3billion, while your own IAC would now come in operation by 2018, for at least $3.0billion, if not more, and IAC and that British HMS both would now come in operation by 2020+, as per the recent news on this page???? so how opting INS Vikramaditya reduced Indian strength this way, considering cost escalation and delays as per your question. and hence, how Indian own IAC project or British HMS could enhance Indian strength this way, for so high cost and proposed induction by 2020+???????

lets find out, how exactly Indian Air Force and IN suffered reduction in their strength due to delays and cost escalation of key defence deals......

=> Navy: many people here might be hardly in 20s and I remember Vajpayee government signed Project 75I for 6 Scorpion Submarines deals for $1.9billions with France in 2004, which was to be supplied from 2008, as per the deal signed in 2004. and today its Cost has gone well above $5.0billions, and many doubt that you would get them for even $8.0bil also..... France has shown its unwillingness of transferring key technologies of these Submarines in late 2000s, and you would now get these Submarines from 2015 onwards, if not more, and full tech transfer would never be possible. and the result is, India is now on the stage of having the lesser submarines than Pakistan by 2015, after retirement of few old submarines, this biggest arm of Navy, the submarines. and even right now, your Top Gun submarine is Akula-2 which was signed with Russia as secret deal, with hopefully 3 more of this type, with russian upgrades of Indian old submarines to keep them working till end of this decade to keep IN maintain superiority over Pakistan till 2020 ......

=> Air Force: similarly, about aircrafts, then check how things worked for this M-MRCA deal? it was proposed for $10bil for 126 aircrafts as per its tender in 2010 itself, but now this whole project will cost has been escalated to over $20bil for Rafale within 2 years, if not more, the lowest bidder itself. while SU30mki for hardly $100mil each is fit in comparison to Rafale, with full tech transfer from raw to product, and it works for IAF as mainly Air Dominance while Rafale will do its work as Multi Role, but both are fit in comparison, both 4++ front line aircrafts of world. while Mig29Ks for hardly $40mil each is possible only from Russia. and about delays? this M-MRCA deal is open from 2008 and even if you get Rafale by even 2015 onward, you will be lucky. ....... also I remember, this M-MRCA deal was opened since 2008, when only Mig29VOT and Mirage 2000-5 mk2 were under consideration, while this deal would now be signed by 2013, and these aircrafts would be delivered from 2016 onwards, if not more, as IAF is more willing to negotiate for a Rafale F4 or at least Rafale F3+ type upgraded model, more stealthy than the current Rafale F3 proposed for the Brazilian tender....... IAF wants it at least as much stealthy as Super Sukhoi Su30mki...... :ranger:

=> Army: if we discuss Tanks, the main arm of army, then have a look on the capabilities of Indian front line tanks as compare to T90??????? T-90s are the best Russian tanks, and India did get enough tech transfer of it, and hopefully 100% tech transfer by end of this decade. otherwise see how even 70% tech transfer of Rafale is appreciated by India. while from US, there is just 'no' technology transfer

(and yes military strength is more than tanks, aircrafts, submarines, ACs etc. like missiles like Brahmos and proposed S-400 for India, which we heard that India has already got it in over 6 regiments, as confidential deal, same as S-300. bla bla.....)

then how Russia, as an arm supplier, was behind any reduction of Indian Military Strength and cost escalation, and how the same could be improved/enhanced by having more reliance on other defence suppliers including on France, this way??????? :fishing:

india has a very limited potential with respect o defense industry.we are just now kick starting every project.we don't have expertise or skilled labor

our govt too is not expecting miracles from our public/private industries

why do you compare an ill prepared project from indian side to russian. did the talwar class frigates go for a big time delay/high cost escalations???/-no
thats why they are about to gain 3 more

on other half ins vikramaditya programme is ill planned by russian counter parts

 

[hello_10]

india has a very limited potential with respect o defense industry.we are just now kick starting every project.we don't have expertise or skilled labor

our govt too is not expecting miracles from our public/private industries

why do you compare an ill prepared project from indian side to russian. did the talwar class frigates go for a big time delay/high cost escalations???/-no
thats why they are about to gain 3 more

on other half ins vikramaditya programme is ill planned by russian counter parts

I was comparing IAC-1 and INS Vikramaditya with British HMS, how British AC would cost close to $10bil while India got Vikramaditya for hardly $2.3billions, and IAC-1 would itself cost around $3.0billion only, while HMS would minimum cost around $10bil......

India has much more expertise, defense industry infrastructure and skills than actually needed, they just need to complete IAC-1 and then I hope for a Super Carrier from India. Indian defense industry is on right path, enough tech transfer itself they got from Russia and rest they would develop by themselves. and even right now, IAC-1 is hardly delayed till 2016/18 while British HMS to 2020? Indian defense industry is doing pretty well I find

 

[hello_10]

Your Point being.. ??

I was just responding to the news of Post#979 that IAC-1 may cost upto $3.0bil, while we had too much discussions about cost escalation and delays of INS Vikramaditya for last 4-5 years. I was only meant to say that cost escalation is part of any major defence project, and i find Russian contracts are placed much better than other major contracts like M-MRCA, Project 75I, IAC-1 while comparing British HMS etc. if we have a look on the present state of these big contracts, their cost escalations and delays, thanks :thumb:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is a good reason for that..

1. INS Vikramaditya is a refitted CV where as INS Vikrant is build from scratch..

2. INS Vikrant is technologically superior ( Mobility and many other ) Design as for Indian Specific..

If INS Vikrant is costlier than INS Vikramaditya, Its obvious..

I was just responding to the news of Post#979 that IAC-1 may cost upto $3.0bil, while we had too much discussions about cost escalation and delays of INS Vikramaditya for last 4-5 years. I was only meant to say that cost escalation is part of any major defence project, and i find Russian contracts are placed much better than other major contracts like M-MRCA, Project 75I, IAC-1 while comparing British HMS etc. if we have a look on the present state of these big contracts, their cost escalations and delays, thanks :thumb:

 

[bhramos]

While INS Vikrant will be delivered late, India starts design work on much larger, 65,000 tons, carrier

While INS Vikrant will be delivered late, India starts design work on much larger CV

Indian Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma announced the nation's first indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) INS Vikrant will not be ready until 2017, three years later than the planned schedule. However The New Indian Express daily reports that design work on the much larger aircraft carrier INS Vishal has already started.

"There were problems in manufacturing the gear box, which involves complex technology. The truck bringing generators overturned near Pune last year, further delaying the schedule," Indian Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma explained.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=556

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Read the title, Post new topics ..

 

[bhramos]

Read the title, Post new topics ..

its alright bro...
i'll post topic on it..

 

[hello_10]

Read the title, Post new topics ..

it was more meant to say few things on one place, on one page altogether, to share my ideas/previous discussions with other nationals/ key strategic issues etc on just one place. it was also intended to get any new idea, experience from others on these issues/topics i raised, as I was told that experience defence professionals participate on this forum.....

thanks :thumb:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You can open a separate thread, More will know..

This is dedicated thread for Vikrant class CV..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[roma]

India has paid toooooo much money on the Gorshav...it cannot walk away now. Moreover, India will finally have a "new" aircraft carrier to replace the Virant.

has paid already ? or has promised to pay ?
there's a big difference obviously ....id rahter think it was a promise to pay i.e had agreed to the increase in price ...... so we have leverage if that is the case ....namely the refusal to pay ....also their jobs are dependent on us

but of course we need clarification on the first question

 

[Just Me]

====================================================

Hi Kunal, this image, how old is it? does anyone have a newer pic?... I can not find a new image of the IAC..

Hey Guys if there is anyone from Kochi and happens to pass by the bridge overlooking the IAC, can you take a quick snap and post it here so we all can get an idea as to where does the construction stand...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its old, but angle is new which shows the rear portion of CV..

 

[RedDragon]

This is talwar class Poweplant and gear box, IAC-1 may have same architecture but on larger scale..

Larger scale, you mean more engines or larger engines?

 

[RedDragon]

While INS Vikrant will be delivered late, India starts design work on much larger, 65,000 tons, carrier

While INS Vikrant will be delivered late, India starts design work on much larger, 65,000 tons, carrier

To be honest, I don't think this shape is as effective as the tradition carrier shape, like the Nimetz class.

 

[pmaitra]

To be honest, I don't think this shape is as effective as the tradition carrier shape, like the Nimetz class.

Please explain why. This is the shape of Nimitz Class:

 

[RedDragon]

Please explain why. This is the shape of Nimitz Class:

quite some, Like landing and take off large aircraft at the same time.

 

[RedDragon]

Are there anybody who can tell the progress of the carrier by the photo? like 45% finished.