INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

[pmaitra]

re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Renk is only supposed to test them for safety/quality assurance, not proper measurements for something they don't look at.

Where are you getting all this information from? Have you any source, or are you just going to defend a German company without any basis?

 

[pmaitra]

re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

RENK COGAG Gear Units for First in Asia Built Aircraft Carriers
The gear manufacturer RENK in Augsburg – a company of the MAN group – is among the worldwide preferred addresses when it is about the design and manufacture of gear units for naval and coast guard vessels.
In this context RENK offers the whole range of single reduction marine main gear units up to complex CODAG, COGAG gears or even CODELAG high-capacity systems lately.

For COGAG propulsion plants – i.e. if two gas turbines commonly supply power to propeller or waterjets via two-stage reduction gears – the RENK BUS 86/75 gear unit for the SES patrol boats of the Royal Norwegian Navy was recently presented as the lightest marine gear worldwide. Now, the order for gear units transmitting the power of large gas turbines to propellers aboard a Navy's top class vessel can be regarded as new milestone.

The Indian Navy placed an order with the Southindian Shipyard Cochin for the first aircraft carrier built in Asia, supported by the design of Fincantieri, the Italian shipyard specialized in naval vessels. Two COGAG gear systems transmit each the power of 44 Megawatt of four gas turbines in total to two c.p. propellers through nearly 100 meter-long shafts. The design of the 233 meter-long vessel with 40,000 tons of displacement goes back to the Italian design, which Fincantieri is building presently with the aircraft carrier "žCavour" for the Italian Navy.

The Indian Navy decided again in favour of the reliable technology of RENK gears and thrust bearings. The local partner Elecon Engineering, Vallabh Vidyanagar, province of Gujarat, the largest gear supplier of the country, supplies pre-machined gears and the fabricated casings for RENK BS 2*252 gearboxes in proven cooperation. Maximum toothing precision of the double helical teeth is achieved on the proven profile grinding machines at RENK, where the 90 tons heavy gearboxes shall also be final assembled and tested. The thrust bearings rated for a propeller thrust of 320 tons, as well of considerable size, are manufac-tured at our Hanover plant. Delivery of the gear set is planned for end of 2008.

In order to obtain still reasonable dimensions of the gear unit with the afore mentioned power values, the "žlocked train" principle is used, where the torque delivered by the gas turbines is transmitted in a frst gear stage to two intermediate shafts arranged in parallel. Due to the junction of the torque in the second stage with the output gear a "locked train" closed in itself is built, where the teeth and bearings transmit just half of the power value individually. This leads to relatively compact designs of the large-sized gear units still requiring space of approx. 50 cubic meters each.

With this challenging order RENK again gives evidence of being a top supplier of gear units for propulsion plants of naval vessels.

Renk AG Press Archive: RENK AG

Renk AG will only be testing, ain't it Armand2REP? Please keep your BS to yourself.

 

[Payeng]

re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Of course it can be airlifted. If Space Shuttles can be airlifted, why not the gearbox (rhetorical)? I have no problem if they needed more time, but I have a problem with them not being able to estimate the time, especially for Renk AG, which is involved in such projects big time. If they have made a mistake in their estimations on time required, they have to own up to it.

The First batch of SKD Su-30MK from Russia were airlifted by this airliner
Volga-Dnepr Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and this aircraft
Antonov An-124 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

form latest source it is known that the gearbox weighted 90 tonnes so it is possible to airlift it using available aircraft commercially.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Published July 16, 2012 | By admin
SOURCE: PTI

India has started working on its secondindigenous aircraft carrier even as the construction of the first one has been marred by delay of over two years. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier ( IAC)-II would be the largest ship in terms of the weight and size to have ever been built by the Navy, Navy sources said here.

On the delays in the IAC-I, they said against the December 2010 timeline, the Navy was now planning to launch it by the end of this year or early next year.

Sources said delays in the warship project were caused mainly due to problems in its gearbox, they said.

The 40,000 tonne IAC-I is being constructed by the Kochin Shipyard in Kerala and is so far the biggest warship project undertaken in the country.

At its now expected induction timeline of 2017, it would be the second largest warship after the Russian-originAdmiral Gorshkov, which is set to arrive in India by March next year.

They said the IAC-I has two very large gear boxes weighing around 90 tonnes each– the largest-ever to have been handled by the Navy.

Asked about the specifications of the IAC-2, Navy sources said the work was going on and a number of design options were being explored.

Navy sources expressed hope that by the time the IAC-II would be ready, the indigenously-built Naval Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would also be fully mature for operating on it.

On the Shivalik Class frigate INS Sahyadri to be commissioned in to the Navy on July 21, Navy officials said it was the last ship of its class Project 17. They said the work on the next Project 17A has already started.
India starts work on second indigenous aircraft carrier | idrw.org

Good move, Give full acceleration..

-----------------------------

According to this report earlier report is a lie that IAC-2 is derailed..

Journalist are making up stories by themselves..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

IAC-II: India starts work on second indigenous aircraft carrier

Published July 16, 2012 | By admin
SOURCE: PTI

India has started working on its second indigenous aircraft carrier even as the construction of the first one has been marred by delay of over two years. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier ( IAC)-II would be the largest ship in terms of the weight and size to have ever been built by the Navy, Navy sources said here.

On the delays in the IAC-I, they said against the December 2010 timeline, the Navy was now planning to launch it by the end of this year or early next year.

Sources said delays in the warship project were caused mainly due to problems in its gearbox, they said.

The 40,000 tonne IAC-I is being constructed by the Kochin Shipyard in Kerala and is so far the biggest warship project undertaken in the country.

At its now expected induction timeline of 2017, it would be the second largest warship after the Russian-originAdmiral Gorshkov, which is set to arrive in India by March next year.

They said the IAC-I has two very large gear boxes weighing around 90 tonnes each– the largest-ever to have been handled by the Navy.

Asked about the specifications of the IAC-2, Navy sources said the work was going on and a number of design options were being explored.

Navy sources expressed hope that by the time the IAC-II would be ready, the indigenously-built Naval Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would also be fully mature for operating on it.

On the Shivalik Class frigate INS Sahyadri to be commissioned in to the Navy on July 21, Navy officials said it was the last ship of its class Project 17. They said the work on the next Project 17A has already started.

India starts work on second indigenous aircraft carrier | idrw.org

 

[maomao]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Journalism in India is of the lowest standards (especially the electronic media)!

Any Corporate or Nutjob organization can pay media houses huge doles, and they will write at the will of their new master!

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Renk AG Press Archive: RENK AG

Renk AG will only be testing, ain't it Armand2REP? Please keep your BS to yourself.

Only testing the shaft, as I already mentioned, that is not of proper length. Please read before you spout your left-right fiasco BS and keep it out of this section.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Only testing the shaft, as I already mentioned, that is not of proper length. Please read before you spout your left-right fiasco BS and keep it out of this section.

Haha, you did a great job copy-pasting. Again, no sources, no links, only more BS.

Read the press archive at Renk AG website. If you need help understanding English, get some help.

Left or right, Renk AG needs to pull up its socks and get this mess sorted out.

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Haha, you did a great job proving Renk didn't make the shaft which is the issue on IAC. So, please cut the BS and accept the fact that placing the blame on Renk for an Indian design failure is about as mature as China grounding a ship to score points on land grabs.

 

[agentperry]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

looking at the pic posted on this forum i told people that it will take many many years to get completed and approx 2018-19. now its official.

but like me no body is surprised. surprised? anyone?

 

[pmaitra]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Haha, you did a great job proving Renk didn't make the shaft which is the issue on IAC. So, please cut the BS and accept the fact that placing the blame on Renk for an Indian design failure is about as mature as China grounding a ship to score points on land grabs.

I am sure if they had outsourced this job to Tata or L&T, they would have done an excellent job, and on time. If India can build the propulsion system of the INS Arihant, a first time, Indian companies would have done this too.

Indian design failure? Pffft! Any sources, or just a lot more drivel from you?

I think it is time you accepted that we are living in a era where European companies are struggling to keep up with the capabilities of the East. Heck, even China would have supplied it on time, unlike Renk AG. The delivery was supposed to be in 2008; this is freaking 2012.

Quit embarrassing yourself by defending what in indefensible.

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

I am sure if they had outsourced this job to Tata or L&T, they would have done an excellent job, and on time. If India can build the propulsion system of the INS Arihant, a first time, Indian companies would have done this too.

They didn't do it without Russians fixing the problems.

Indian design failure? Pffft! Any sources, or just a lot more drivel from you?

Generators don't fit, shafts not proper length... doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where the problem is = Cochin

I think it is time you accepted that we are living in a era where European companies are struggling to keep up with the capabilities of the East. Heck, even China would have supplied it on time, unlike Renk AG. The delivery was supposed to be in 2008; this is freaking 2012.

Heck, European companies can do anything you pay them to. It is penny-pinchers at FinMin that don't like to let money go. Renk is not the problem but the company that sent specs for shaft length that were incorrect = Cochin.

Quit embarrassing yourself by defending what in indefensible.

It is pretty sad trying to place blame on Western companies when it is just about always at your end.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

They didn't do it without Russians fixing the problems.

Well then Renk can get some help from the Russians.

Generators don't fit, shafts not proper length... doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where the problem is = Cochin

Attempt 1: The problem is with the gearbox. Read the news.

Heck, European companies can do anything you pay them to. It is penny-pinchers at FinMin that don't like to let money go. Renk is not the problem but the company that sent specs for shaft length that were incorrect = Cochin.

Attempt 2: The problem is with the gearbox. Read the news.

It is pretty sad trying to place blame on Western companies when it is just about always at your end.

Attempt 3: The problem is with the gearbox. Read the news.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Armand2REP, read the opening post by Ganesh2691. It mentions gearbox, but I do not see any mention of shaft. I have posted a link that serves as evidence as to the two companies responsible for the gearbox, i.e. Renk AG and Elecon.

If you have any evidence that there is a problem with the shaft, then post those links. If you don't have any evidence, then quit repeating shaft, shaft, shaft - because it's annoying. Till then, take your unsupported claims and shaft it up somewhere else.

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Renk helped Elecon fix the gearbox problem so there is nothing to whine about Western firms.

"They have been able to overcome the difficulties with support from a German firm," said a Navy officer.

The shaft length is what caused continuing problems.

There was a problem in... the long shaft that also contributed to the delay.

Defence News - Navy Floats Out First Indigenous Aircraft Carrier

 

[pmaitra]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

^^

This is what you quoted:

There was a problem in... the long shaft that also contributed to the delay.

This is the COMPLETE sentence:

There was a problem in the gear box and the long shaft that also contributed to the delay.

Sorry about that Armand2REP, try harder again. There is nothing in the report that says it was Cochin's fault. Rather, it appears Renk and Elecon made bad calculations with the gearbox and the shaft - is that shaft a part of the gearbox? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know.

Thanks for trying!

 

[Armand2REP]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

The Navy already said Renk helped fix the problem, so it was hardly their fault when they were the solution! The article you posted showed Renk didn't make the shafts but milled the gears and thrust bearings. Your blame there is clearly off the table. Cochin already screwed up by not having a perfect fit for the generators. The long shaft is just the icing on the cake of their poor dimensions. Cochin built it where everything would fit and it doesn't and kicked it out of drydock to build a bulk cargo carrier = fault of Cochin.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

The Navy already said Renk helped fix the problem, so it was hardly their fault when they were the solution! The article you posted showed Renk didn't make the shafts but milled the gears and thrust bearings. Your blame there is clearly off the table. Cochin already screwed up by not having a perfect fit for the generators. The long shaft is just the icing on the cake of their poor dimensions. Cochin built it where everything would fit and it doesn't and kicked it out of drydock to build a bulk cargo carrier = fault of Cochin.

I am sorry, but you are changing your position. You first claimed Renk AG was only doing testing. Now you are saying they milled the gears and shaft bearings. I'll tell you more - they are also making more stuff at their Hanover facility. Then you quote a sentence and take out a portion of it and replace it with dots. C'mon Armand2REP, you are being disingenuous. Moreover, there is no conclusive evidence that the shaft was made by Cochin or by Renk/Elecon. And for your allegations of 'poor dimensions,' I wonder if you can provide any evidence to support that? The only link you ever posted does not back up any of the claims you are making.

But hey, I get your point, European companies cannot make a mistake, especially if it is a German company.

P.S.: There is a joke in the US, that BMWs are the most towed cars of all the brands. Just an informal joke, but it is there.

 

[sob]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

Are we to believe that just because of the Gear Boxes, the whole project is delayed by 2-3 years. This is BS and I refuse to accept it. An AC is much more than Gear Boxes and shafts.

I know that the shafts are incredibly long ones and the alignment and fitting of the couplings and the propeller is a very tough job but that usually comes towards the end. And with the laser shaft alignment tools available it has become relatively easy.

Nice try but this does not cut ice.Where are the engines/turbines coming from, are they on time. When were the orders released with advance payment by CSL? Was that on time? There are many questions left unanswered. If Elecon is to blame then charge L/D from them. Why is CSL quite on this?

Let us face it CSL or any other shipyard has no experience with building and AC. This is a learning experience for them, but if they are not learning from it then it is a wasted exercise.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: IAC-I: Will be delayed by 3 yrs

^^

Two or three years delay cannot be due to gearboxes alone.

They said gearboxes and other things, and it is not clear what these other things are.

Building an AC is a first time, but they assembled a massive zigsaw puzzle and made a huge hull out of smaller parts, into a decent looking structure (we have seen the picture). CSL also has been building ships for a while, so I seriously don't think they lack the expertise.

If there is a cover up, it must come out in the open.

And all this shaft problem, what exactly happened, no one knows. In such massive projects, there is always some allowance kept for minor errors to a certain percentage, so things don't have to match the drawings to the last millimeter.

The engines will be coming from General Electric, and these will be LM 2500 gas turbines. GE has a lot of experience with gas turbines, but if you like Diwali, I want to show you the reliability of older GE turbines:
WTF Boom Gas Turbine locomotive - YouTube

Don't be surprised if the ship, after being launched, catches fire.