India's Interest in Lockheed F-35 Fighter

[JineshJK]

Singh I agree with you on most of the points. What we are overlooking that the US is the only nation on earth which has decades of experience with Stealth Aircraft. For them it is not a new technology. For the Russians and Chinese it is a new technology which will take years to master.

Pinning all our hopes on PAK-FA and/or the AMCA is indeed very stupid. We need to be able to think on all the lines. If 7-8 years down the line we come to a decision that the AMCA is not working and if like all projects the PAK-FA is puched behind by 5 years then, we will have no option on our hands.

Also Shashank I was quite surprised to read this line from your side : We are not dummies that we shall have to be slaves of the US or that the Russians are not going to make us pay through our nose for the the PAK-FA.

No man modern stealth developed in Russia and literally the F-117 was a Soviet rejected program. Also US stealth technology never performed against any good force in the world. The problem is We got lot of Western channels instead Russian. Pure reliable Russian tech is more valuble than hyped US gimmicks. F-35 is nothing but a waste. Even F-22s were defeated by Eurofighter in US soil!!! 4 classified mock combat sorties, EF took it with 3 to 1. And media....??!! you know..
S-400 radar can track all these jets(F-117,B2,F-22,PAKFA,F-35,J-20). So No one in the world(even USAF) really need F-35 like total shit..

 

[p2prada]

AMCA is a 2030 aircraft. 7 years of development and 9 years of testing would mean 16 years gone. IOC will happen only in 2027 by most optimistic views.

F-35A's IOC is scheduled for 2019. So, even that will take it's own sweet time to arrive. 200 aircraft will be produced before IOC with all the chinks.

PAKFA is not a done deal until IOC is achieved. That's 4 more years. So, let's see.

LCA failed in meeting all parameters. We will have 4th gen technology in 2018 when the whole world's moved on to 5th and early 6th gen. It's like building a Gnat in the era of Flankers. But it's ours and yada yada. As long as we maintain technological superiority against China it's fine.

 

[sob]

p2p, maintaining technological parity with China is okay, but should we not aim higher than that.

On the other hand we are talking only about the delays in the programmes, what about the delay in our decision making. If we start thinking about say F 35 today we might release the order in 2020 only.

 

[p2prada]

p2p, maintaining technological parity with China is okay, but should we not aim higher than that.

Who wants parity against China, we need superiority. Parity is for them to worry about, not us. We buy phoren stuff. As long as we do that we can maintain superiority. If we go the Iran, North Korea, Pakistan way and buy or build substandard stuff then we will continue living in the indigenous hell hole.

IAF does not want only indigenous stuff. They want capability first, indigenous can be achieved by other means like relevant ToT by paying lots of money. Rafale and EF are the product of over 20 years of hard work. Even today they can give a 5th gen fighter a run for it's money. So, what's the harm in paying a few billions and buy their technology. In the end it is we who win. At least DRDO will get an idea on how far behind they are if they don't already.

On the other hand we are talking only about the delays in the programmes, what about the delay in our decision making. If we start thinking about say F 35 today we might release the order in 2020 only.

Delays in our program primarily come from bad decision making or bad management. The PSUs are also to blame for delays and not just bureaucrats.

As for F-35 order, if we assume the F-35 was in the process of achieving IOC in a few years rather than 8 years then we can go the FMS route and buy the aircraft at a much faster rate. If we go through a tender then it will take more time.

 

[Galaxy]

To be honest, I think F-35 is the fighter we should be working on instead of the Russian FGFA. Given the delivery timelines and after delivery service as well as the threat environment given that China is next door. It only makes sense to go for the F-35 than venture into the FGFA.

1>The cost of F-35 would be 30%-40% higher than PAK-FA/FGFA.
2> U.S. won't provide us on ToT, So we won't get any technology which might help in future.
3> There could be some condition due to CISMO as India is not signatory.
4> US orderbook for F-35 is already full till 2025, means we will get but slowly. 10-15 countries already ordered whereas We will operate 48 PAK-FA by 2020-2021 and then FGFA production will start by HAL.

IMO, PAK-FA/FGFA is fine, But we should consider F-35 naval version for IAC-2,3. (As IAC-2 will be only operational around 2020-2022). I am not sure on AMCA project.

For the MMRCA, I think going the Eurofighter or Rafale as was planned is alright because we need these within the next five years.

In next 5 years, we will be operating only 1 squadron of MMRCA. As per news, 2nd squadron only by 2017. It's for 10-12 prospective which we will operate till 2050.

 

[Falcon]

This will clear some doubt....

 

[tony4562]

p2p, maintaining technological parity with China is okay, but should we not aim higher than that.

On the other hand we are talking only about the delays in the programmes, what about the delay in our decision making. If we start thinking about say F 35 today we might release the order in 2020 only.

When India's economy is only a quater as big as China', and in terms of manufacturing even smaller (only a tenth in size), it is unrealistic for India to achieve parity with her neighbor, let alone achieving upperhand, unless of course India is willing to overspend (like 8-10% of GDP or 30-40% of the government budget) on defence. Right now, the Mumbai metro is using China-supplied trains, the chennai metro is using China-supplied drilling equipment, and New Dehli's shiny new airport uses China-supplied glasses, ans so on. Why, because India can't manufacture them. India is behind China by several decades in manufacuring, therefore India will find it inceasingly difficult to match China's overall capabilities (which is stupid to begin with anyway.)

 

[Galaxy]

When India's economy is only a quater as big as China', and in terms of manufacturing even smaller (only a tenth in size), it is unrealistic for India to achieve parity with her neighbor, let alone achieving upperhand, unless of course India is willing to overspend (like 8-10% of GDP or 30-40% of the government budget) on defence. Right now, the Mumbai metro is using China-supplied trains, the chennai metro is using China-supplied drilling equipment, and New Dehli's shiny new airport uses China-supplied glasses, ans so on. Why, because India can't manufacture them. India is behind China by several decades in manufacuring, therefore India will find it inceasingly difficult to match China's overall capabilities (which is stupid to begin with anyway.)

In that sense, China is behind Japan by many decades. Even Modern Korea, Taiwan are at least 2-3 decades ahead than China.

In that context, India is 5 decades ahead than Pakistan.

In same context, China is behind U.S., Germany by many decades.

Top 100 international brand which is known/famous in 100+ countries and China don't have single such products. Even S.K. has products like LG and SAMSUNG. All Chinese items are cheap which people buy and throw away after few uses. What if world stops buying Chinese products ?? China will go bankrupt as Exports makes 40% of Chinese GDP.

 

[p2prada]

When India's economy is only a quater as big as China', and in terms of manufacturing even smaller (only a tenth in size), it is unrealistic for India to achieve parity with her neighbor, let alone achieving upperhand, unless of course India is willing to overspend (like 8-10% of GDP or 30-40% of the government budget) on defence. Right now, the Mumbai metro is using China-supplied trains, the chennai metro is using China-supplied drilling equipment, and New Dehli's shiny new airport uses China-supplied glasses, ans so on. Why, because India can't manufacture them. India is behind China by several decades in manufacuring, therefore India will find it inceasingly difficult to match China's overall capabilities (which is stupid to begin with anyway.)

If we consider aircraft alone, then we have 150 MKIs operational along with 200 other BVR capable aircraft. PLAAF has around 100 old Flankers which are far older and could probably lose to your more "modern" J-10s. Your J-11 series are basically new and not fully finished. At best you have a 100 of these as well. So, that likes 350 of our equivalent jets compared to 350-400 of your most capable jets. Our only other rival is Pakistan and they don't have much of an air force today, maybe tomorrow. Comparatively you need to maintain parity against USN, USAF, VVS, Japan, Taiwan...big list there.

Your Navy and Army is larger. But not much you can do there. You have the potential to surpass even the US, but not today.

As for that BS about how we buy Chinese drills etc, it's cheap and it works for us. You sell the same to both US and Japan. Considering the fact that we have the capability to make the AL-31FP turbofan from scratch in India while you still have to import from Russia while your home made rip off does not work satisfactorily goes to show how far ahead we are.

BTW, when I said superiority I mean technological superiority, not numerical. With the Super MKI upgrade, MRCA deal and PAKFA, maybe throw in the F-35 for our Navy, we will continue with a superior tech lead against China.

 

[tony4562]

In that sense, China is behind Japan by many decades. Even Modern Korea, Taiwan are at least 2-3 decades ahead than China.

In that context, India is 5 decades ahead than Pakistan.

In same context, China is behind U.S., Germany by many decades.

Top 100 international brand which is known/famous in 100+ countries and China don't have single such products. Even S.K. has products like LG and SAMSUNG. All Chinese items are cheap which people buy and throw away after few uses. What if world stops buying Chinese products ?? China will go bankrupt as Exports makes 40% of Chinese GDP.

China is behind Japan by couple decades in technology, not in manufacturihg capacity. Outside certain consumer goods industries China is certainly not behind Taiwan or S.Korea. China has sent human into space, has so far sent about a dozen navigation satellites into space, don't think Taiwan or South Korea are even remotely close to achieving this kind of things. S.Korea and Taiwan are good at consumer electronics and chip-fabrication, but its is still Japan and US that hold the key technologies.

Yes Korea has Samsung which accounts like 1/4 of Koea's GDP. But China too has a few companies that are competitive out there, for example Huawei which is among world's most innovative companies, is well on the way to become world's largest telecom equipment producer, or Haier which has become world's largst white-good producer.

 

[tony4562]

Also China has a currency that is 40% undervalued (see long time China-hater Chola's essays on BR) which makes export's share in China's economy look larger than really it is, and at same time china's real GDP smaller thah it really is. Also people are usually familar with consumer goods brands, but consumer goods industry only represents a small portion of the economy. China is also world's largest pecision machinery maker. A common person would never even be aware of this.

 

[Galaxy]

China is behind Japan by couple decades in technology, not in manufacturihg capacity. Outside certain consumer goods industries China is certainly not behind Taiwan or S.Korea. China has sent human into space, has so far sent about a dozen navigation satellites into space, don't think Taiwan or South Korea are even remotely close to achieving this kind of things. S.Korea and Taiwan are good at consumer electronics and chip-fabrication, but its is still Japan and US that hold the key technologies.

Yes Korea has Samsung which accounts like 1/4 of Koea's GDP. But China too has a few companies that are competitive out there, for example Huawei which is among world's most innovative companies, is well on the way to become world's largest telecom equipment producer, or Haier which has become world's largst white-good producer.

This is called ignorance.

Few countries have capability, But they don't send human to Space to prove their technology. Many countries have such technology. Even Israel and S. Korea has such tech. Every countries has different priorities.
Hardly anyone knows about Huawei. Sorry, I am hearing 1st time.

But everyone knows about LG and SAMSUNG. Both these products covers every corner of the world. It's helping the Korean economy and they didn't make any % GDP in that sense. Companies like LG/SAMSUNG are 100 times more popular than Chinese product in same category. You are comparing world leader with unknown products. The day, China will have any product like LG or SAMSUNG, then we will see. BTW, Modern Korea average employs buy a car with he annual salary and Chinese not able to live average life with that.

China is known for cheap product and now they started feeling the heat with "Middle-Class trap". They don't have any superior technology, manufacturing and products to reach that level. Taiwan and S.K. per capita is already 5-7 times more that China and growing and China is all set of middle class trap.

China's middle income trap

 

[tony4562]

In that sense, China is behind Japan by many decades. Even Modern Korea, Taiwan are at least 2-3 decades ahead than China.

In that context, India is 5 decades ahead than Pakistan.

In same context, China is behind U.S., Germany by many decades.

Top 100 international brand which is known/famous in 100+ countries and China don't have single such products. Even S.K. has products like LG and SAMSUNG. All Chinese items are cheap which people buy and throw away after few uses. What if world stops buying Chinese products ?? China will go bankrupt as Exports makes 40% of Chinese GDP.

Mumbai metro uses Chinese made trains, do think that is throw-away goods after few uses? lots of india's power stations use china-made turbines, is that also throw-away goods? The myth that chinese goods are low-quality has been debunked time and again (you can't become world's no.1 exporter just by selling trashs, can you?), but just like the story about a third of NASA scientists being indian, the myth persists. Well, it all comes dow to what people want to hear.

 

[tony4562]

This is called ignorance.

Few countries have capability, But they don't send human to Space to prove their technology. Many countries have such technology. Even Israel and S. Korea has such tech. Every countries has different priorities.
Hardly anyone knows about Huawei. Sorry, I am hearing 1st time.

But everyone knows about LG and SAMSUNG. Both these products covers every corner of the world. It's helping the Korean economy and they didn't make any % GDP in that sense. Companies like LG/SAMSUNG are 100 times more popular than Chinese product in same category. You are comparing world leader with unknown products. The day, China will have any product like LG or SAMSUNG, then we will see. BTW, Modern Korea average employs buy a car with he annual salary and Chinese not able to live average life with that.

China is known for cheap product and now they started feeling the heat with "Middle-Class trap". They don't have any superior technology, manufacturing and products to reach that level. Taiwan and S.K. per capita is already 5-7 times more that China and growing and China is all set of middle class trap.

China's middle income trap

That's my point. China makes goods worth hundreds of millions of dollars targeting coporates, thus you are not aware of them. Do you realize that the network switches used by your internet providers are possibly made by Huawei or the huge tunneling machines for drilling at the Chenai metro site are chinese?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

, but just like the story about a third of NASA scientists being indian, the myth persists. Well, it all comes dow to what people want to hear.

OFF TOPIC

This is not a myth

36% of scientists at NASA are Indians: Govt survey - Times Of India

36% of scientists at NASA are Indians: Govt survey

 

[Galaxy]

Mumbai metro uses Chinese made trains, do think that is throw-away goods after few uses? lots of india's power stations use china-made turbines, is that also throw-away goods? The myth that chinese goods are low-quality has been debunked time and again (you can't become world's no.1 exporter just by selling trashs, can you?), but just like the story about a third of NASA scientists being indian, the myth persists. Well, it all comes dow to what people want to hear.

We buy many things because It's cheap. It does mean we can't make it own.

Yes, You can become world No. 1 exporter by selling trash or better i say cost-effective. A Chinese shoe cost 10 $ in local Indian market but at same time Shoes like Reebok, Nike, Adidas cost 100-200 $ for a pair of shoe. Many people can't afford shoes of Nike or Reebok or Adidas due to expensive price, so many people prefer Chinese shoes. Everyone knows It's cheap and quality is pathetic, But due to very cheap price, Many People still buy.

I can afford Branded shoes, So I can never ever buy. IMO, A 150$ Nike shoe is 100 times better than 10 $ Chinese shoe.

Top 100 Global Brands Scoreboard - Businessweek

There are few sectors in which Chinese are doing well but again same thing cheap quality so cheap price. Not, Everyone can afford 100 Mn $ Rafale, Typhoon, SU-30,35, F-15,18 so they buy cheap 30 Mn $, J-10. That's why China is No. 1 in export. But They have limited scope and by lately countries like Vietnam, India will give competition to China.

 

[Galaxy]

OFF TOPIC

This is not a myth

36% of scientists at NASA are Indians: Govt survey - Times Of India

36% of scientists at NASA are Indians: Govt survey

Top 10 occupations for those born in India.


1. Computer software developers
2. Managers and administrators
3. Scientists and quantitative analysts
4. Sales-related occupations
5. Engineers and architects
6. Clerical and administrative staff
7. Doctors
8. Teachers
9. Accountants and other financial specialists
10. Nurses

These 10 occupations makes 80% Indians who work in U.S. Top 3 Makes 40% total Indian Jobs.

Chinese Top occupation in U.S. -- Cooks and other food preparers :shocked:
Pakistan Top occupation in U.S. -- Sales & Marketing. 8)


Immigration and Jobs - Map of Foreign-Born Workers - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

 

[tony4562]

This is called ignorance.

Few countries have capability, But they don't send human to Space to prove their technology. Many countries have such technology. Even Israel and S. Korea has such tech. Every countries has different priorities.
Hardly anyone knows about Huawei. Sorry, I am hearing 1st time.

But everyone knows about LG and SAMSUNG. Both these products covers every corner of the world. It's helping the Korean economy and they didn't make any % GDP in that sense. Companies like LG/SAMSUNG are 100 times more popular than Chinese product in same category. You are comparing world leader with unknown products. The day, China will have any product like LG or SAMSUNG, then we will see. BTW, Modern Korea average employs buy a car with he annual salary and Chinese not able to live average life with that.

China is known for cheap product and now they started feeling the heat with "Middle-Class trap". They don't have any superior technology, manufacturing and products to reach that level. Taiwan and S.K. per capita is already 5-7 times more that China and growing and China is all set of middle class trap.

China's middle income trap

Taiwanese are 99% han chinese, i don't get why you keep bragging about their success. Taiwan once had GDP/per capital 20 times that of mainland, so the gap is now shrinking fast. Average income in shanghai is now approaching half the level of Hongkong, 20 years ago, it was not even 5%. But anyway, be it taiwan, hong kong, tokyo, shanghai, or be it korea, taiwan, china or japan, there is one thing in common, its east asian. You should hold off your guns till India actually achieves something.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

off topic

India has beat China in getting to the moon and mapping the moon and finding water on the moon. This is just one example. I can give many more.

 

[tony4562]

OFF TOPIC

This is not a myth

36% of scientists at NASA are Indians: Govt survey - Times Of India

36% of scientists at NASA are Indians: Govt survey

That's urban legend which has been exposed time and again as hoax. See here