Indian T-90S a sub-standard tank ?

[Drsomnath999]

IMI is banned, It puts nails on many Indian Indigenous projects..

MOD is looking at Russian for obvious..

BEST sensible post in this thread

yes it is dissapointing man!!!!

 

[methos]

the livefist report says that army is not interested in heavy tanks but army has specifically given order to drdo to have features in arjun mk2 which will increase it's weight like era,mine plough etc.the arjun mk2 with improved gun,armour,1500hp indegeneous engine,era,missile firing capacity,aps,sau etc is two generation ahead of t-90s and 1.5 generation ahead of t-90am.

And why should the Arjun Mk.2 be one or multiple generations ahead of the T-90s? Because it has ERA? Oh wait the T-90 also has ERA. Because the MK.2 can fire missiles? Oh, wait the T-90 can also fire missiles. Because of the mine plough or an improved engine - also something the T-90 can (and does) have. The only difference might be the APS, but on protoype-basis the T-90 has been fitted with APS when people didn't even thought about the Arjun Mk. 2.

 

[hitesh]

T90 MS / AM tanks specification :
1> Has a new Turret with enhanced protection of frontal projection, roof and sides.
2> Has new ERA "Relic" It has an improved ability to withstand modern sabot projectiles and HEAT rounds
3> Can withstand current and future anti-tank weapons , The level of protection of the new tank exceeds any competitor
4> Weight increased by less than 2 Tons , Tanks weighs a little more than 48 T
5 > T-90MS new fire control system "Kalina" is equal to the best world samples
6 > Has implemented auto tracking of Targets
7> The gunner has combined thermal sight, laser and optical channels. The commander has a panoramic multi-channel scope
8> The tank has a single automated control system at the tactical level. it is able to exchange information and receive indication from other machines Battalion ( BMS )
9> Has satellite navigation system GLONASS-GPS and modern means of communication
10> T-90MS can be fitted with an existing gun or new gun of high power 125 mm caliber
11> Has ammunition capacity of 40 rounds, in secure underfloor loader and rear bustle reducing the risk to the crew
12 >T-90MS has a new 1130 horsepower engine
13> Has electronic automatic gear change and motion control using the steering wheel

 

[sayareakd]

T90 is not operated in numbers by Russan army, it is not their MBT, that say it all, what was given to India is substandard tank, which is export version called T 90s.
I dont buy the argument that Russia does not have money, they have sold enought oil and milked us what ever they can on our defence purchace, plus long range bomber missions have restarted, so they have money, but they know it is not worth having it. Only some people so go ga ga on foreign mall, love to die for it. At least Russians have not commited to its better version so far, may be they know their tank better then our die hard lovers T series.

 

[amitkriit]

Wow somebody told the truth. Now let some heads roll for putting the lives of our soldiers at risk.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

T-90S is a good tank BETTER than rust T-72 Monkey models, Its better that many of our tanker user of T-72M1 are now in T-90S..

T-90S have flaws, So does Arjun MK-1 but both are replacing T-72M1 which is outdated junk used in mass in IA..


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Flaws if T-90S:

1. Thin side Armour ( Turret )

2. No ERA protection at Chassis sides ( Ammo placement, propellant on floor )

3. Expose ammo (Plastic bag propellant) on the floor of the tank



Flaws in Arjun MK-1:

1. Gunner Sight placement.

2. Big mantel..

3. Thin side Armour Turret..



Flaws in T-72M1

1. Thin side Armour turret

2. Outdated Armour Module

3. M for Monkey model were degraded in Armour thickness compare to T-72B

4. Outdated Ammo

5. 2A46 or equivalent Indian is out dated gun

6. Auto loader layout

7. Expose ammo on the floor of the tank

8. No 360 degree Commander Periscope..


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Russian want to kill Arjun even FMBT in future, And they will kill unless:

1. Elimination of Greedy MOD babus and top brass involve, Powerful arms dealers..

2. Improvement in Deigning of Indigenous Tank..

 

[Damian]

T90 is not operated in numbers by Russan army, it is not their MBT, that say it all, what was given to India is substandard tank, which is export version called T 90s.
I dont buy the argument that Russia does not have money, they have sold enought oil and milked us what ever they can on our defence purchace, plus long range bomber missions have restarted, so they have money, but they know it is not worth having it. Only some people so go ga ga on foreign mall, love to die for it. At least Russians have not commited to its better version so far, may be they know their tank better then our die hard lovers T series.

What a bollocks...

T-90 and T-90A tanks are in operational service. There are more of them in Russian Federation Armed Forces arsenal than Arjun Mk1 in IA. At least one unit equiped with T-90A tanks is stationing in Abkhazia close to "hot" region (Georgia, Chechnya and other Caucasus countries that can start another "party").

And why Russians do not want to buy T-90MS? Oh it's simple, and they even say "silently" why they preffer to offer it for export instead buying it... because they are allready working on next generation MBT based on "Armata" Heavy Tracked Unified Combat Platform.

Seriously people, when You want to analize something, first collect some data, look at this data, think, then speak.

 

[methos]

3> Can withstand current and future anti-tank weapons , The level of protection of the new tank exceeds any competitor

Don't base your claims on patriotic propaganda. Relikt might be better than the older Kontakt-5, but this does not mean that it is stronger armoured than other tanks.

T90 is not operated in numbers by Russan army, it is not their MBT, that say it all, what was given to India is substandard tank, which is export version called T 90s.
I dont buy the argument that Russia does not have money, they have sold enought oil and milked us what ever they can on our defence purchace, plus long range bomber missions have restarted, so they have money, but they know it is not worth having it. Only some people so go ga ga on foreign mall, love to die for it. At least Russians have not commited to its better version so far, may be they know their tank better then our die hard lovers T series.

Actually they have only a pretty limited defence budget and large parts of it are spend on developing new tanks. The Russians upgrade their T-72s to a very similar level, while at the same time upgrading their T-80s. Buying new tanks would cost much more, while only bringing a small advantage over their upgrade programmes. T-72B with Kontakt-5 or Relikt ERA and new FCS is nearly as good as a T-90.

2. No ERA protection at Chassis sides

This is a flaw existing in the older models only. The later modles got a steel-polymer/steel-rubber armour module at the sides (i.e. some sort of NERA) to protect the frontal side against enemy fire. The Abrams also uses some sort of steel-rubber side skirts at the front.

3. M for Monkey model were degraded in Armour thickness compare to T-72B

This is not true. The T-72M1 is the export model corresponding to the T-72A, i.e. it was designed and produced prior the T-72B was in production. It got the same "high quality" as the Soviets used on their T-72 modles exisiting at the time. The T-72M is somewhere between T-72 and T-72A, while the T-72S is the export model corresponding to the T-72B.

4. Outdated Ammo

This is in my opinion also parital true for T-90 and Arjun Mk.1, at least when you compare the ammunition used by India to more modern rounds from other countries (NATO, but also Russian Lekalo and Svinets or Chinese APFSDS).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This is a flaw existing in the older models only. The later modles got a steel-polymer/steel-rubber armour module at the sides (i.e. some sort of NERA) to protect the frontal side against enemy fire. The Abrams also uses some sort of steel-rubber side skirts at the front.


This is not true. The T-72M1 is the export model corresponding to the T-72A, i.e. it was designed and produced prior the T-72B was in production. It got the same "high quality" as the Soviets used on their T-72 modles exisiting at the time. The T-72M is somewhere between T-72 and T-72A, while the T-72S is the export model corresponding to the T-72B.


This is in my opinion also parital true for T-90 and Arjun Mk.1, at least when you compare the ammunition used by India to more modern rounds from other countries (NATO, but also Russian Lekalo and Svinets or Chinese APFSDS).

I am talking about the Armour protection at the sides of T-90S :

The point is T-72M1 have low thickness of Armour at front compare to T-72B..



Presently Indian T-72M1 use very old ammo compare to Arjun MK-1 and T-90S, T-90S use best AP rounds, These ammo came with purchase of T-90S and later also Imported after DRDO rounds were considered not safe..

 

[p2prada]

T90 is not operated in numbers by Russan army, it is not their MBT, that say it all, what was given to India is substandard tank, which is export version called T 90s.
I dont buy the argument that Russia does not have money, they have sold enought oil and milked us what ever they can on our defence purchace, plus long range bomber missions have restarted, so they have money, but they know it is not worth having it. Only some people so go ga ga on foreign mall, love to die for it. At least Russians have not commited to its better version so far, may be they know their tank better then our die hard lovers T series.

How many MKIs do Russia own?

India has placed orders for 214 PAKFAs while Russia has managed only 60.

Russia cannot afford anything to the scale India can and that is the difference.

Anyway Russia operates around 700 T-90s with majority of them being the same version as the India T-90S with welded turret.

Funnily enough, there are takers for T-90s outside of India too...
Algeria, Turkmenistan To Buy Russian Tanks: Report | Defense News | defensenews.com

APA - Azerbaijan to purchase T-90S tanks from Russia

And why should the Arjun Mk.2 be one or multiple generations ahead of the T-90s? Because it has ERA? Oh wait the T-90 also has ERA. Because the MK.2 can fire missiles? Oh, wait the T-90 can also fire missiles. Because of the mine plough or an improved engine - also something the T-90 can (and does) have. The only difference might be the APS, but on protoype-basis the T-90 has been fitted with APS when people didn't even thought about the Arjun Mk. 2.

The Arjun Mk2 is trying to be what the T-90 was in 1998.

 

[methos]

I am talking about the Armour protection at the sides of T-90S :

Only the turret sides are wearker armoured than on other tanks; Leopard 2A6, M1A2 Abrams and Challenger 1/2 all got similar hull side armour like the T-90, only uparmoured versions have thicker or reactive hull side armour (i.e. Leopard 2 Evolution, M1A2 TUSK or Challenger 2 CLIP).

 

[sayareakd]

The Arjun Mk2 is trying to be what the T-90 was in 1998.

can you place on record if T90S has fired missile in non line of sight mode for range of 6-8 Km. Link would be appropriated, if you cannot back your claim kindly issue unconditional apology for your aforesaid statement.

Arjun MK-II will fire LAHAT for aforesaid range.

Thanks.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Leopard 2A6, M1A2 Abrams and Challenger 1/2 all got similar hull side armour like the T-90, only uparmoured versions have thicker or reactive hull side armour (i.e. Leopard 2 Evolution, M1A2 TUSK or Challenger 2 CLIP).

Why comparing Western tank deign chassis with Russian one ? None of these you mentioned have exposed plastic propellant open on the tank floor 360 degree..

T-90MS is not operating in Indian Army..

 

[methos]

can you place on record if T90S has fired missile in non line of sight mode for range of 6-8 Km. Link would be appropriated, if you cannot back your claim kindly issue unconditional apology for your aforesaid statement.

Arjun MK-II will fire LAHAT for aforesaid range.

Thanks.

LAHAT features components made by IMI (i.e. the warhead), so it seems possible that LAHAT might not be available due to the Indian export ban on IMI.

Why comparing Western tank deign chassis with Russian one ? None of these you mentioned have exposed plastic propellant open on the tank floor 360 degree..

They don't store ammo there, but the crew is located in this region! Any armour penetration there will result in the loss of live.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

LAHAT features components made by IMI (i.e. the warhead), so it seems possible that LAHAT might not be available due to the Indian export ban on IMI.

There is Indian made Lahat..

Arjun MK-II will fire LAHAT for aforesaid range.

Thanks.

Both are different tanks, in deign aspect also in preform ace..

There is nothing wanna be here, Arjun is tailor made as per army demands..

 

[sayareakd]

What a bollocks...

T-90 and T-90A tanks are in operational service. There are more of them in Russian Federation Armed Forces arsenal than Arjun Mk1 in IA. At least one unit equiped with T-90A tanks is stationing in Abkhazia close to "hot" region (Georgia, Chechnya and other Caucasus countries that can start another "party").

And why Russians do not want to buy T-90MS? Oh it's simple, and they even say "silently" why they preffer to offer it for export instead buying it... because they are allready working on next generation MBT based on "Armata" Heavy Tracked Unified Combat Platform.

Seriously people, when You want to analize something, first collect some data, look at this data, think, then speak.

:clobber::clobber::clobber::clobber:

T90 is not operated in numbers by Russan army, it is not their MBT, that say it all, what was given to India is substandard tank, which is export version called T 90s.
I dont buy the argument that Russia does not have money, they have sold enought oil and milked us what ever they can on our defence purchace, plus long range bomber missions have restarted, so they have money, but they know it is not worth having it. Only some people so go ga ga on foreign mall, love to die for it. At least Russians have not commited to its better version so far, may be they know their tank better then our die hard lovers T series.

how many MBT Russian got in total ??? then ask what is not operated in numbers compare to total number of tank to the total number of T90 tanks in Russian army means. Russian army is not interested in T90 because as you said they are going for new tank, which means this tank is outdated that is why they are moving to next generation tank. If it is not outdated then why the hell you spend your money to make something which will outperform T90. Bottom line is that Russian are not putting their money on T90 and they want us to buy this tank for our army.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They don't store ammo there, but the crew is located in this region! Any armour penetration there will result in the loss of live.

Let me elaborate:

Same in T-90S..

The Crew of commander and gunner sit atop of the ammo, Ammo is over floor..

 

[Koovie]

The use of T-90S tanks in Dagestan deserves mention. A group of these vehicles consisting of 8 to 12 units according to different sources was supposed to be delivered to India. Fol-lowing a sharp aggravation of the situation in the Cauca-sus, however, the tanks were transferred to Dagestan. In the Kadari zone one T-90 was hit by seven RPG anti-tank rockets8 but remained in action. This indicates that with regular equip-ment T-90S is the best protected Russian tank, especially if Shtora and Arena defensive protection systems are integrated in it.

Moscow Defense Brief

This is the only time a T 90 faced real combat

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What kind of RPG hit it & Where it Hit ?

It not possible to penetrate frontal Armour at least by RPG-7 or PG-7R..

 

[Damian]

I have a strong suspicion that these were not T-90's but T-72B Model 1989 or Model 1990, the have Kontakt-5 ERA installed and from the outside are very similiar to T-90 with cast turret. Untrained eye won't notice small details and see the difference. However both tanks havea minot details that makes them different. T-72B have different, simpler TC cupola and lack TSzU-1-7 Shtora-1 system that are mounted on T-90's.