Indian T-90S a sub-standard tank ?

[Adux]

Regarding the usual drama about bridge's etc, well its time to change the infrastructure and actually give our soldiers something in which they can fight. If our bridges cant handle a measly 70 tons, then we are in far more trouble than anything else.

 

[Adux]

Russians are trying to scuttle Indian projects while being making sure India hangs to them as the only supplier with 70%, and while they move towards China. During a Indo-China war, Russia stops supplies. Nice.

 

[noob101]

Russians are trying to scuttle Indian projects while being making sure India hangs to them as the only supplier with 70%, and while they move towards China. During a Indo-China war, Russia stops supplies. Nice.

Yeah Russia is not going to stop supply to India in a Indo China war... more like other way around ..... The only country that hates the dragaon more than Unkil is the Bear.... but yeah the Russians are sneaky bastards, they will do anything to keep making their profits! they would even sell to both sides...

 

[Koovie]

totally misleading and unappropriate title...

 

[Zebra]

That is why they are buying tanks without a global tender .
There should be a global tender for tanks . Like MRCA .

 

[Koovie]

Russians are trying to scuttle Indian projects while being making sure India hangs to them as the only supplier with 70%, and while they move towards China. During a Indo-China war, Russia stops supplies. Nice.

And do u think that the US, France or anyone else wants our arms industry to grow ?!

In the end, the Russians were and are our best friends

 

[sob]

Why the hell don't we buy the Leopard Tanks from the Germans and produce them in India under License. Could somebody with more technical knowledge reply to this. I consider them to the best Tanks in the world.

 

[Adux]

And do u think that the US, France or anyone else wants our arms industry to grow ?!

In the end, the Russians were and are our best friends

Absolute bullshit,

The French nor the Americans have any sort of lobby in India as powerful as the Russian Arms Lobby, There is not even comparison. Its quite natural that countries have arms lobby, but this Russian one has taken a 'strategic toll' on Indian defense industry as well as our freedom of movement against China.
The blank cheque that you give to the Russians as best friends, while it has been proved otherwise in the T-90, Su-30MKI as well as other deals, smacks of your slavtitude.

 

[Adux]

Yeah Russia is not going to stop supply to India in a Indo China war... more like other way around ..... The only country that hates the dragaon more than Unkil is the Bear.... but yeah the Russians are sneaky bastards, they will do anything to keep making their profits! they would even sell to both sides...

Do you keep abreast with the recent developments.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There should be a global tender for tanks . Like MRCA .

Completely agree here, Even small ATGMs have to compete with others..

Than why such an expensive tank in such an amount without any competition..



Its really amuse me, A tank was purchased in just 300 or so in wake of PA T-80UD, Now became main MBT in gr8 numbers in our Army..

And proclaimed to be one of the best tank in the world..



If we are going for T-90MS than lets be a MBT competition, Let have Arjun mk-2, Leo-A7, MIA2, T-90MS, T-84 and any other..

 

[sayareakd]

My two cents , this time stay away from T-90s .
We used a lot Russian tanks , enough now .
Switch to our own products + try some western tanks also .

lets have tank competition have it like MRCA type tender for the same. Let the best tank win.

 

[roma]

Funny thing is, the Indian Army continues to insist on a massive Armoured Corps even though in the nuclear overhang between India and Pak, these tanks will be nothing but excellent ovens for the javans to get cooked in when Pakis get jittery and drop tactical nukes on advancing Indian tank formations.

Since we know a massive tank invasion of Pakistan is nothing but a fantasy in this brave new world, the thinking of the Army stragetists is a bit puzzling to say the least. What we should rather focus our energies on is a massive covert intelligence program focussed on obtaining as much information as possible on Paki nuclear assets, and developing sleeper cells targeting specific high ranking individuals of terrorist groups, ISI and the Army who sponsor terrorist attacks in India.

one word reply - EXCELLENT !

 

[Damian]

There will be however several problems with tank competition. Not in tanks but in production capabilities.

For example USA and Russia still have production capabilities and are manufacturing tanks, so they will not have any problems to fulfill any contract.

However as Russians might be willing to allow licence production and technology transfer, US might allow only licence production (or rather production of tanks in knock down kits in US and assembly of tanks in India, just like in case of Egypt) and will definetly not allow to sold tanks with their newest or best technology like DU armor.

Germany is problematic, in theory KMW and Rhinemetall due to large Leopard 2 users, have capabilities to manufacture such tanks, and are willing to sold production licence with technology transfer (look Greece, Sweden and Spain). But the question is, do they really still have manufacturing capabilities? Do Germans are willing to sold tanks to India?

France and UK are out of buisseness, both do not manufacture and probably do not have manufacturing capabilities, not to mention both don't have much tanks to be sold via second hand.

Italy same as above, + C1 Ariete is somewhat a "joke".

South Korea and Japan might offer their new tanks, but do both of them can compete whith Russia or US?

I suspect that US could offer besides tanks also full logistic support with spare weapons, spare parts, ammunition, training aids, actually US could from scrath build how logistical chain for tanks in India. Russia in theory also but due to financial problems it might be somehwat difficult for them.

Oh and there is Israel with Merkava Mk4 MBT, Namer HAPC/HIFV and Namera ARV, so if India would choose a foreing design, and it would be a Merkava Mk4, then India can buy a licence for a whole family of vehicles that shares most of it's components, reducing logistical problems. And Israelis seems to be rather cheap, high quality and willing to share technology.

Or India might follow with Arjun Mk2 but as it seems, actually not many things were upgraded, and some design solutions are... strange, and seems to not have much sense.

So if I agree that international competition might be good thing, there are things worth to be analized.

 

[methos]

You need to seriously shut up. T-90 is one of the best. what humbug.Have you seen the Georgian War?

There were no T-90s in Russo-Georgian War.

Why the hell don't we buy the Leopard Tanks from the Germans and produce them in India under License. Could somebody with more technical knowledge reply to this. I consider them to the best Tanks in the world.

There are a few factors too consider. The Germans have strict export rules and the Leopard 2 costs much more too buy. For the Indian infrastructure the Leopard 2 might be seen as too heavy, even though I don't think that this is an important fact, as the majority of rivers which are deeper than 4 - 4.5 m (too deep for the Leopard 2 or T-90) should actually have bridges and/or should be crossable by armoured vehicle-launched bridge/ferries.

Germany is problematic, in theory KMW and Rhinemetall due to large Leopard 2 users, have capabilities to manufacture such tanks, and are willing to sold production licence with technology transfer (look Greece, Sweden and Spain). But the question is, do they really still have manufacturing capabilities?

First tanks delievered to Greece and Spain (early 2000s) were still produced in Germany. If the "production lines" are closed or used for other stuff (conversions, other vehicles) is unknown to me.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

For the Indian infrastructure the Leopard 2 might be seen as too heavy, even though I don't think that this is an important fact, as the majority of rivers which are deeper than 4 - 4.5 m (too deep for the Leopard 2 or T-90)

If T-72M1 with ERA can, Than why not T-90S ?

Arjun MBT infrastructura is there, Not different from Leos..

 

[sob]

If T-72M1 with ERA can, Than why not T-90S ?

Arjun MBT infrastructura is there, Not different from Leos..

Arjun and Leo2 do not have much difference in weight. Also IIRC Arjun derives much of it's design from the German Tank. IMO Leo2 would be a good choice for India.

Also after selling HDW submarines, the Germans would not be averse to selling India the tanks. Again in the present economic scenario Germany would be more than happy to sell Arms to India, with which they have a very good relationship.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Also after selling HDW submarines, the Germans would not be averse to selling India the tanks. Again in the present economic scenario Germany would be more than happy to sell Arms to India, with which they have a very good relationship.

German did offered Leo 2a4 back in early 90s but Army refused as Army logistic chain and men are use to with Russian legacy tanks, Leo 2a4 was totaly different tank compare to T-72M1 and require training from beginning on both handling and maintenance..

From my personal view it was a fault, and wrong decision..

 

[hit&run]

Funny thing is, the Indian Army continues to insist on a massive Armoured Corps even though in the nuclear overhang between India and Pak, these tanks will be nothing but excellent ovens for the javans to get cooked in when Pakis get jittery and drop tactical nukes on advancing Indian tank formations.

Since we know a massive tank invasion of Pakistan is nothing but a fantasy in this brave new world, the thinking of the Army stragetists is a bit puzzling to say the least. What we should rather focus our energies on is a massive covert intelligence program focussed on obtaining as much information as possible on Paki nuclear assets, and developing sleeper cells targeting specific high ranking individuals of terrorist groups, ISI and the Army who sponsor terrorist attacks in India.

We need tanks to occupy larger sectors. Tanks may not have more role as aggressors initiating the war in near future but will not become obsolete as you mentioned especially with your logic.

Tactical nukes are fiction in modern warfare.

 

[bengalraider]

As for The leo's we would do well to remember that there is a sizeable turkish lobby in Germany that paints India as an aggressor and human rights violator in Kashmir, this lobby would kill any arms deal given the European fetish for conformity

 

[sob]

today the situation in Germany is different. I am sure with the current feeling against the Turks settled in Germany, this Turkish lobby would not be a factor.

Plus the Germans were also behind the push for the Eurofighter, this lobby was nowhere to be heard of. Again looking at the relations between India and Germany and the present economic scenario, the Germans would not be averse to sell Tanks to India.