Indian T-90S a sub-standard tank ?

pmaitra

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There are avaiable documents that are declassified, and nowhere in them, there is such term as "Chobham" armor, as I said, the proper codename is "Burlington", and remember this instead of this mass media trash.
Make up your mind. Is it classified or declassified? You just claimed it is classified. Or is it only you have access to those documents?

This is what you wrote. You are contradicting yourself.

Armor itself is relatively lightweight, unfortunetely data for M1 is still classified, however for Leopard 2 that is comparable vehicle, turret armor weight's approx 8 metric tons, 8 metric tons for a turret weighting 16 tons, so from where is the rest of 8 tons, for a vehicle weighting from 55 to 62,5 tons depending on variant (improved variants have turret weighting 18-19 tons)?
 

Damian

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To even suggest that he got his knowledge from Discovery Channel, you have to have watched plenty of Discover Channel yourself, no? Otherwise, how did you com to tat conclusion?
I do not watch it, I rarely watch TV at all. However it is easy to to deduce by observing what he is writing.

Right, if armour is increased, the suspension, drive train, etc., will have to strengthened and that will also contribute to the weight. Please read the post by @average american, where he did not all of the 20 extra tons comes from the armour. Read first, before responding.
I read it, and again, from where he know that most of that weight is armor, what if most of that weight comes from engine, tranmission, suspension and fuel tanks?

Do you know that T158LL tracks weight 4 metric tons, each 2 metric tons? A lot of weight for a tracks only, give to that engine, that weights 1,14 tons dry + transmission, add to that weight of fuel tanks and fuel itself. Cables inside of vehicle can weight a lot. Even welds can weight a lot.

Make up your mind. Is it classified or declassified? You just claimed it is classified. Or is it only you have access to those documents?

This is what you wrote. You are contradicting yourself.
It is funny when some people have problems with understanding a simple things.

Some data is classified some data is declassified, is this understandable? Because I do not know how much simpler I would need to write so the human being could understand it.

Besides this, read what I wrote with understanding and proper context, and do not mix things that are not directly related to each other.
 
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pmaitra

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I do not watch it, I rarely watch TV at all. However it is easy to to deduce by observing what he is writing.
Sorry, I don't deduce anything. I have personally met many people who have served in Iraq, and some of them have carried out on-field servicing as well. Even they are not sure what the armour is made of.


I read it, and again, from where he know that most of that weight is armor, what if most of that weight comes from engine, tranmission, suspension and fuel tanks?
Ok, so assuming most of the weight is not armour, as you imply, why would the tank need to increase the weight of its suspension, transmission, engine? You are saying most of the 20 extra tons is suspension, transmission, engine?

Do you know that T158LL tracks weight 4 metric tons, each 2 metric tons? A lot of weight for a tracks only, give to that engine, that weights 1,14 tons dry + transmission, add to that weight of fuel tanks and fuel itself. Cables inside of vehicle can weight a lot. Even welds can weight a lot.
Yeah, but then, that weight should be counted as a percentage of the total weight, not the difference of weight between two tanks. Simple mathematics buddy. If you are looking at those 2x2 = 4 tons and comparing it to the 20 extra tons (which is what M1 weighs more than T-90), then you are suggesting T-90 has no tracks at all? You are displaying height of delusion.



It is funny when some people have problems with understanding a simple things.
I completely agree with you.

Some data is classified some data is declassified, is this understandable? Because I do not know how much simpler I would need to write so the human being could understand it.
No, if you were to admit that you initial statement was wrong, that would have been nicer.
 

Damian

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Sorry, I don't deduce anything. I have personally met many people who have served in Iraq, and some of them have carried out on-field servicing as well. Even they are not sure what the armour is made of.
Of course they are not, I also know several still serving or former tank crew members, also from USA, and althouth they have deeper interest in subject, are also clear, that during training, the only thing they will know about armor is that it is good enough for them, that's all and this is typical, soldiers do not need to know such things.

However I am not soldier, and I am far more interested in details, this is why I spend a lot of time digging through different, credible sources.

Also take a note, that I am not interested in dogmats that most people believe in. I seek truth, knowledge, not these dogmats that are widepsread all around and easy accessible. This is why I have opprotunity to collect such photos for example.



Above photo shows a British special armor, most probably one of the created within "Burlington" program, which is made from Depleted Uranium and policarbonate. Most of you probably would never seen such photos, and I seen better, however I promised to never copy them and share them around internet as they are still classified stuff.

Ok, so assuming most of the weight is not armour, as you imply, why would the tank need to increase the weight of its suspension, transmission, engine? You are saying most of the 20 extra tons is suspension, transmission, engine?
Why, mostly because of size, armor weight do not come from thickness alone, or materials used, but also surface, it means tha the more internal volume, the more surface armor needs to cover, the more it weights, but then again the more armor weight the more other components weight, for example engine needs to be bigger, to have more power, to permitt better mobility.

There is not a single reason why tank is heavier, but many reasons, that are connected to each other, and as I said, armor is not the main reason why vehicle is heavier, and mostly is not making the most of weight.

Yeah, but then, that weight should be counted as a percentage of the total weight, not the difference of weight between two tanks. Simple mathematics buddy. If you are looking at those 2x2 = 4 tons and comparing it to the 20 extra tons (which is what M1 weight more than T-90), then you are suggesting T-90 has no tracks at all? You are displaying height of delusion.
But T-90 have smaller engine that is also lighter, it's tracks can be lighter, T-90 do not use a single tranmission block, but two smaller planetary tranmission blocks that are again, more compact and lighter. T-90 have less internal volume, which means less surface needs to be protected by armor, look at the turret alone, it is much smaller than that of the M1 or any other western MBT.

M1A1 turret weight's ~21 tons, T-90A/S turret weights 14-16 tons and is much smaller, do not have composite armor on the side surfaces, only at front, contrary to M1.

No, if you were to admit that you initial statement was wrong, that would have been nicer.
My statement was not wrong, only you do not understand, but what I can do?
 
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pmaitra

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Why, mostly because of size, armor weight do not come from thickness alone, or materials used, but also surface, it means tha the more internal volume, the more surface armor needs to cover, the more it weights, but then again the more armor weight the more other components weight, for example engine needs to be bigger, to have more power, to permitt better mobility.
Correct, more internal volume you have, the more volume needs to be protected by armour (even if the armour is not the same in all directions), so you need more armour. So, @average american seems to have hit the nail in the right spot - 20 extra tons, most of which is armour.
 
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DivineHeretic

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Right. :rolleyes:



That wasn't for Arjun. That was for T-72 when firing DRDO made rounds called the AMK-340A. It killed a tank crew during a test.

All the shells were subsequently destroyed.
I never stated that those rounds were for the Arjun. It was only an example of the pitiful performance of the indigenious munition built by OFB.
 

Damian

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Correct, more internal volume you have, the more volume needs to be protected by armour (even if the armour is not the same in all directions), so you need more armour. So, @average american seems to have hit the nail in the right spot - 20 extra tons, most of which is armour.
No, because more armor do not means thicker armor, it means only surface not thickness.

Compare any NATO tank surface of the turret roof and the T-xx turret roof surface, more armor do not mean thicker armor, in fact thickness is comparable in both cases, and i some sense it is even in favor for T-xx tanks.

Same for hull roof and belly, compare the surface, thickness will be similiar but surface will be in favor of T-xx tanks, making them lighter.
 
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average american

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Weight

47.5 tonnes (46.7 long tons; 52.4 short tons)
Length 9.63 m (31 ft 7 in)
Width 3.78 m (12 ft 5 in)
Heigh 2.22 m (7 ft 3 in)
Crew 3


Weight 67.6 short tons (60.4 long tons; 61.3 t)
Length Gun forward: 32.04 ft (9.77 m)[4]
Hull length: 26.02 ft (7.93 m)
Width 12 ft (3.66 m)
Height 8 ft (2.44 m)
Crew 4 (commander, gunner, loader)

Not enought differance in size to account for differance in weight,



The Russians desperately needed to mount a response after the 1991 Gulf War, when the Americans stormed through the deserts of Kuwait and Iraq. The Russian economy's defense sector was reeling, after the American military's Abrams M1A1 Main Battle Tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles left the battlefield littered with literally hundreds of burnt-out and charred carcasses of once mighty Russian T-72 and T-80 tanks. As if the Russians weren't already in bad enough shape after the collapse of the Soviet Union, now the international image of their largest defense export, the T-72 tank, and their newest model, the T-80, as no more than a flaming hulk of metal on the battlefield. Not good PR for the second largest weapons exporter in the world. Something had to be done. The Russian's solution: rename the tanks. By combining elements of the T-72 and T-80 together, the Russians were able to create the T-90, and have successfully duped the market ever since.

Despite the fact that the T-90s design aspects are nothing new, the newest production models do include some major upgrades to the existing designs. A new gun being one of the biggest improvements, the newest T-90s coming off the lines can be fitted with Explosive Reactive Armor, laser rangefinders, an electromagnetic pulse generator to combat magnetic mines, and laser warning recievers. There is also a new type of radar jamming system to scramble the guidance of incoming radar-guided anti-tank missiles. Basically, you get early 70"²s mechanics with 90"²s electronics.

Don't get me wrong though, Russia's output capacity for producing these tanks can skyrocket if they wish it to. Never forget the inferior US Sherman tanks swarming the superior German Tigers. Technical sophistacation found with the likes of Western MBTs such as the German Leopard, French Leclerc, British Challenger 2, and the American Abrams M1, are expensive and time-consuming to produce and repair, while the Russians have never shown a sensitivity to losses in great numbers of mass-produced war machinery.
Russian Tank Forces – T90 Technology | Future Military Weapon Technology - Future Firepower

Not even another M1 Abram has been able to take out a M1 Abram that I am aware of.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Damian is a bookworm, I have found some of his said books in fort William Military Library..

Was interesting, though need hours to go through them which i dont have..

======================

The bottom line is, He knows what he talks about..

I do not watch it, I rarely watch TV at all. However it is easy to to deduce by observing what he is writing..
 

Damian

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Weight

47.5 tonnes (46.7 long tons; 52.4 short tons)
Length 9.63 m (31 ft 7 in)
Width 3.78 m (12 ft 5 in)
Heigh 2.22 m (7 ft 3 in)
Crew 3


Weight 67.6 short tons (60.4 long tons; 61.3 t)
Length Gun forward: 32.04 ft (9.77 m)[4]
Hull length: 26.02 ft (7.93 m)
Width 12 ft (3.66 m)
Height 8 ft (2.44 m)
Crew 4 (commander, gunner, loader)

Not enought differance in size to account for differance in weight,
And now also try to find data about internal volume and compare.

The Russians desperately needed to mount a response after the 1991 Gulf War, when the Americans stormed through the deserts of Kuwait and Iraq. The Russian economy's defense sector was reeling, after the American military's Abrams M1A1 Main Battle Tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles left the battlefield littered with literally hundreds of burnt-out and charred carcasses of once mighty Russian T-72 and T-80 tanks. As if the Russians weren't already in bad enough shape after the collapse of the Soviet Union, now the international image of their largest defense export, the T-72 tank, and their newest model, the T-80, as no more than a flaming hulk of metal on the battlefield. Not good PR for the second largest weapons exporter in the world. Something had to be done. The Russian's solution: rename the tanks. By combining elements of the T-72 and T-80 together, the Russians were able to create the T-90, and have successfully duped the market ever since.
Again it is not truth, you better learn at least a bit of Russian and learn about history of Soviet tanks.

T-90 history begun in the 1980's in reality, as it was one of the competitors for the T-72B replacement. UKBTM (the design bureau that designed T-72 series among some other tanks) was working on two vehicles that were candidates to replace T-72B (and earlier variants), these tanks were designated Object 187 and Object 188.

Here starts to be interesting, the Object 188 was more or less completely new tank, with only overall design based on T-72, although hull, turret, engine, transmission, suspension was completely new.

Object 188 was actually very advanced tank, it is not known what protection it would have, however avaiable sources says that protection was codenamed "Malachit".

Here are several photos of several still existing Object 187 prototypes, you can clearly see the difference compared to T-72 series.



As you can see, at least one prototype have a hull design actually typical for NATO 3rd generation MBT's.

However as it is truth that at this time, in the period between late 1980's and early 1990's, Soviet economy was weakening, and in the end after the break up of the Soviet union, there was no money to finish rather expensive Object 187, the same fate shared even more advanced and radical design the Object 477/477A Boxer/Molot from KMDB design bureau.

So the Russians needed to focus their funds and cheaper and simpler Object 188, what was Object 188? Initially it was named T-72BU, but someone though it is good idea to rename vehicle and this is how T-90 born.


This is the T-72B (Object 184) with 4S22 "Kontakt-5" ERA...


... and here the original T-90 (Object 188), also with 4S22 "Kontakt-5" ERA, striking similarity isn't it?

However this was not an end of the T-90 evolution. Because original T-90 use a cast turret, it is known fact that cast armor is by 5 to even 15% weaker than rolled armor of the same thickness and hardness, also the factory making cast turrets, closed it's production line (I do not know when actually), so someone smart have idea to use a welded turret, but wait, what welded turret, no Soviet tank manufactured after WWII had such turret... but at least a single prototype had such turret design, the Object 188, designed by the same design bureau.

So the turret was again taken for R&D work, it was slightly redesigned, and this is how a new T-90 born, the T-90A (Object 188A).



Isn't it very similiar to the Object 188? ;)

I strongly recommend to learn about history of Soviet tank for people that wan't to talk about them, as it seems not many knows this history, even if it is rather avaiable for wide public.

Oh and of course there were also other T-xx tanks from the now former soviet union with welded turret, the family of Object 478's (various variants), but their story is a different story, non less interesting, I must say even more interesting.

Despite the fact that the T-90s design aspects are nothing new, the newest production models do include some major upgrades to the existing designs. A new gun being one of the biggest improvements, the newest T-90s coming off the lines can be fitted with Explosive Reactive Armor, laser rangefinders, an electromagnetic pulse generator to combat magnetic mines, and laser warning recievers. There is also a new type of radar jamming system to scramble the guidance of incoming radar-guided anti-tank missiles. Basically, you get early 70"²s mechanics with 90"²s electronics.
Again, you know nothing. The Explosive Reactive Armor is a standard for T-90 series, as it is integral component of the vehicle protection. Laser rangefinder is a standard equipment, the electromagnetic mine plough is avaiable but not mounted as standard, laser warning receivers are standard as they are part of the TShU-1-7 Shtora-1 active protection system, as well as IR dazzlers are. The fire control system is derived from T-80U/UD series.

Don't get me wrong though, Russia's output capacity for producing these tanks can skyrocket if they wish it to.
No, it can't, there is such thing as economy.

To start mass production in "skyrocket" scale there would be need for a very serious threat to Russia, like another World War, and even then I doubt that T-90 would be manufactured in huge quantities.

Never forget the inferior US Sherman tanks swarming the superior German Tigers.
And how do you know that M4 series were inferior? It was actually in some aspect very advanced design, besides this, comparing medium tank with heavy tank is just plainly stupid... a habbit typical for the Discovery Channel and co.

Technical sophistacation found with the likes of Western MBTs such as the German Leopard, French Leclerc, British Challenger 2, and the American Abrams M1, are expensive and time-consuming to produce and repair, while the Russians have never shown a sensitivity to losses in great numbers of mass-produced war machinery.
And what makes you think that they are so complex machine? Or difficult to repair? Actually in terms of mechanical complexcity M1 or Leopard 2 are simpler than the T-90, or even old T-72. It is also easier to repair them, replacement of engine in Leopard 2 and M1 in avarage takes 30 minutes, in T-72 it takes even 24 hours.

So again, you know nothing about tanks.

You call this a source? :D

Not even another M1 Abram has been able to take out a M1 Abram that I am aware of.
Wrong, there were friendly fire accidents, or destroying immoblized tank for purpose to prevent it's capturing intact and breaking OPSEC. Read about Thunder Run and M1A1 named Cojone Eh.
 
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average american

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After the miserable showing of forgeign tanks in the Gulf and Iraq war mainly Russian, foreign manfactures were desperate to regain credibility by mainly pimping up their old tank designs,, there main problem was they just did not have the technology, research and development budget or even actual experience to the USA.,

Russia's Innovation Gap | Brookings Institution
Russian manufacturers. Russian manufacturing productivity is now about 40 percent of Brazil's and only one-third of South Africa's
 

Damian

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After the miserable showing of forgeign tanks in the Gulf and Iraq war mainly Russian, foreign manfactures were desperate to regain credibility by mainly pimping up their old tank designs,, there main problem was they just did not have the technology, research and development budget or even actual experience to the USA.,

Russia's Innovation Gap | Brookings Institution
Russian manufacturers. Russian manufacturing productivity is now about 40 percent of Brazil's and only one-third of South Africa's
Again, this have nothing to do with T-90 development history, as it's development started in the late 1980's, as I described in short above... are you unable to read?
 

average american

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Poland Equips The Malaysian Tank Regiment
Next Article → THAILAND: Bout Bounced While The South Sizzles
September 9, 2010: Malaysia has completed staffing, equipping and training its first tank regiment. The unit is equipped with 48 Polish PT-91 tanks. This is an upgraded version of the Russian designed (but manufactured in Poland) T-72M1. The 46 ton PT-91 uses the original 125mm gun, a 12.7mm machine gun, and a coaxial 7.62mm machine gun. But it has new electronics, upgrades to the engine and ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor). It also costs less than half what a similar Western tank would go for. While not as effective as an M-1 or Leopard, the PT-91 is adequate for whatever neighbors might have.
The PT-91 is one of many upgraded or evolved T-72s. The T-72 tank is the most widely used tank since World War II. Over 50,000 have been built (compared to 84,000 World War II T-34s). Ironically, the T-72 was a stopgap design, intended to provide a replacement for the more advanced T-64, which was not successful.

Production began in 1972, and the T-72 entered service in 1976. Compared to the earlier T-62 and T-64, the T-72 was successful. It was reliable and combat ready, or so it was thought. But in 1982, Syrian T-72s went up against Israeli Merkavas. The Syrians lost badly. In 1991, Iraqi T-72s were helpless against American M-1 tanks, and M-2 Infantry Fighting Vehicles. But the T-72 remained popular. Partly because it was so cheap. Cold War surplus vehicles, in good shape, could be had for as little as $100,000. The vehicle was still popular because of its reliability. Most nations never expected to use their T-72s in combat, but it was more useful for them to be in running condition in peacetime, when they could control unruly civilians, or at least look good in parades.

Another reason for the popularity of the T-72 is the large number of upgrades available, the PT-91 being but one of many examples. While the basic T-72 was pretty unimpressive, a few upgrades can turn it into a much more formidable (and expensive) tank. For example, modern, computerized, fire control systems, with laser range finders and night-vision sights, and quality ammunition, transforms a T-72 into a very lethal system. While such a tank would still get blasted by an M-1, if the T-72 spotted the M-1 first, and got a flank shot, it could win. The T-72 is also a very mobile vehicle, about on a par with the famously nimble M-1. But protection is always going to be a problem. The stock T-72 is a 41 ton vehicle that is 7.4 meters/23 feet long, 3.6 meters/11 feet wide and 2.45 meters/7.5 feet high. An M-1 is 62 tons, 10 meters/32 feet long, 3.7 meters/12 feet wide and 2.6 meters/eight feet high. The extra weight is mostly armor, and from the front, the M-1 is still very difficult to kill. To survive, a T-72 not only needs to accessorize, but requires a well trained crew. Most nations using T-72s, don't like to invest in crew training. But that's what makes the most difference in combat.

The T-72 is surviving into the 21st century because Russia's new T-90 was, again, a fall-back design. The T-80 was supposed to be the successor to the T-72. But like the T-62 and T-64 before it, the T-80 didn't quite work out as planned. So the T-72, with a much improved turret and all manner of gadgets, was trotted out as the T-90. Weighing 47 tons, the T-90 is still the same dimensions as the T-72. Same package, better contents. And with well trained crews, it could be deadly.
Armor: Poland Equips The Malaysian Tank Regiment
 

Damian

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Again, lot's of bollocks. Not to mention that author of this article is not even capable to properly write designation codes of different tanks.

Oh and by the way, T-72 was not successor of T-64 and T-80 was not successor of T-72, all these 3 designs were parrarel developments, but of course T-64 was first and influenced designs of T-72 and T-80, which were in some sence, a T-64 with different engines, suspensions and other components.


These are 3 episodes from a 10 episode, very well made and very accurate documentary Броня России.

Watch whole episodes. Maybe then, by some miracle, some knowledge will find a way to your head.
 
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average american

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Get real, for the last 50 years the Russians have produced junk, western weapons have gone through Russian tanks and Planes like can opener with a bad attitude, and while the Russians and their supporters like to blame it on pliots, training and personel which is a turd they keep polishing to to sell crapy third world military junk. . I cant think of anything worse then a polish tank based on Russian designed equipment.

Question: How do you stop a Polish Tank?

Shoot the guys pushing the tank.
 
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Damian

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Get real, for the last 50 years the Russians have produced junk, western weapons have gone through Russian tanks and Planes like can opener with a bad attitude, and while the Russians and their supporters like to blame it on pliots, training and personel which is a turd they keep polishing to to sell crapy third world military junk. . I cant think of anything worse then a polish tank based on Russian designed equipment.
Well, it is difficult to expect something more than primitive answer from you.
 
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Damian

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Lets keep out from getting personal..
Well Kunal, it is difficult to not get personal. Especially when instead of arguments, you get so much bollocks from a person that is obviously poorly educated, is incapable to think, to learn and his only sources are some poor and silly internet sites full of more bollocks and false informations.

I wonder if he ever read any proffesional book about different weapon systems from aroudn the world. Ehm not, probably not, book is a way above his level of understanding.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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We can all read what you write and We do know what we read..

Continue pointing out faults prove your point over it, That is where other falls and then only he shows his true nature..

You just do this, Rest will follow up on its own..

Well Kunal, it is difficult to not get personal. Especially when instead of arguments, you get so much bollocks from a person that is obviously poorly educated, is incapable to think, to learn and his only sources are some poor and silly internet sites full of more bollocks and false informations.
 

Damian

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Yes you are right.

So as this is topic like a river, anyone can ask about the subject of the soviet tanks development history, me or someone else with proper knowledge definetely will answer.

Or maybe that way, why T-72 was ever designed.

It is complicated history.

Initially the promising T-64 had some teething problems with ti's engine the 5TD. 5TD was very unique tank engine design, compact, but had a lot of HP in relation to it's size. And just like with all new design, problems were obvious thing.

This is why Soviet Goverment, ordered to develop a version of T-64 with V-45 diesel engine, a further development of famous V-2 used in T-34 and it's further versions used in tanks like T-44, T-54, T-55 and T-62.


5TD...


...and the V-45/46.

This is how Object 172 was designed by UKBTM in Nizhny Tagil (T-64/Object 432 was developed by KB-60M/KMDB in Kharkiv).


T-64/Object 432...


...Object 172...

However it is worth to know, that also the original developer of T-64 was working on version with different engine. It is also important to understand that developing a successfull tank design, in Soviet Union, meant a state prize, a prestige, and other benefits for the main engineer, whole engineering team as well as the whole design bureau. This is why UKBTM engineers decided to, somewhat "steal" Alexanders Morozov T-64 design, and develop their own tank based on T-64, this is how a Object 172M was created, different suspension, different tracks, different autoloader, engine and many other components.


...Object 172M the future T-72.

And exactly the same history with the T-80. Initialy the T-80 prototype or Object 219, was just T-64 with gas turbine engine, however during tests, it was discovered, that T-64 suspension was not suited for speeds that this tank could achieve, and therefore new suspension and tracks were developed, among other nececary modifications.

This lead to obviously absurd situation, where a single country, is manufacturing 3 main battle tanks, with comparable technical and tactical characteristics, but do not share any significant quantity of common components, creating logistical problems, increasing price, exploatation costs etc.
 
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