Indian T-90S a sub-standard tank ?

p2prada

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The Army is not serious about Arjun. Why would they want DRDO to eat up R&D funds that may very well be spent on FMBT and T-90 instead?

The Arjun is only trying to be what the T-90 already is. The point of the Mk2 is to reduce design and production problems as much as possible and help DRDO develop technologies that can be used on T-90 and FMBT instead, technologies that are already being offered by the west. DRDO has supposedly already identified problems in the Mk2 which will be fixed on Mk3 in due course of time. DRDO can only hope, with fingers crossed, that the Army will decide to order a few more before shutting down the program.

If we are looking at the Arjun Mk2 and Mk3 to be some kind of a super tank then we are solely mistaken.
 

Adux

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The Russian backstab

Reloaded Arjun Killed At Birth?

This is one powerful déjà vu. A repeat of what happened with the original Arjun main battle tank.

As the Arjun Mk.2 rumbles at the Pokhran field firing range (the prototype is understood to have arrived there on May 10), warming up for user trials from the first week of June, a combination of factors may have killed the tank at birth.

First, the trials in June will test the following performance parameters of the tank: acceleration, turning radius, stab performance, ergonomics, static fuel consumption, cruising fuel consumption, tilt driving. The trials will also involve firing of primary and secondary ammunition, consistency and rate of fire, firing at night using thermal imagers, and of all new equipment. The prototype does not have the mine plough as depicted in the CAD image above.

Consider the following facts:

* The Army has already begun to speak unofficially about the Arjun Mk.2 (in the coming days, you'll see reports about this in newspapers), talking of how trials may take as long as the protracted trials on the Arjun Mk.1, including comparative trials. This only means one thing -- the Army already has its mind made up, and we saw what that meant with the Mk.1. The changes the Army has asked for on the Mk.2 include several major modifications and offensive capabilities and extensive additions. This doesn't augur well for timely delivery. According to information supplied to Parliament, the Arjun Mk.2 is to begin deliveries in 2015, costing Rs 37-crore per tank. The blacklisting of IMI, a technology partner in the programme, has only made the Army more nervous.

* The Army wants the DRDO to get on with the FMBT programme. Legacy opposition to Project Arjun has boiled down to abject disregard for anything pertaining to the programme -- and perceptions that transacting on a programme that was commissioned just after the 1971 war is plainly foolish.

* As I'd indicated earlier, I can now confirm that a Russian delegation, which included officials from Uralvagonzavod and Rosoboronexport met with the a team from the Army's Mechanised Forces at Sena Bhawan in the second week of March this year. The scheduled meeting was to present information about the T-90MS that was to be unveiled at the Defexpo show a fortnight later. The meeting was a casual one -- the inviduals involved have met many times before on the expansive T-90 transactions. My sources tell me that it was conveyed at the meeting that if India chose to license-build more T-90s, the cost of transferring any additional technology would be waivered. The offer is a direct hit at the Arjun Mk.2. The upcoming trials also came up at the meeting. The Russians are understood to have offered to assist in the Indian FMBT project (and is in talks separately with DRDO about this) and that it was time to let the Arjun go.

* It is a fact that the Army has already told the Department of Defence Production that it will not expand its existing indent for 124 Arjun Mk.2s, as it does not need more heavy tanks. The Arjun Mk.2 is over 60 tons. This has been taken up even at a personal level by the Army's DG Mechanised Forces with Minister of State for Defence, MM Pallam Raju. The DRDO has said that any order below 500 tanks (in a mix of Mk.1 and Mk.2) makes Project Arjun a dead loss. This is precisely what it is likely to be, which is why products based on the Arjun chassis (bridge-layer tank, self-propelled artillery) or Arjun turret (Tank-X) are being pushed too. A total of 248 Arjun Mk.1/2 tanks in Army service is the maximum the programme can hope for.
The Army is a bunch of Sasha loving vodka drinking traitors
Livefist
 

Adux

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All the while Russians are NOT buying anymore T-90's. Indians and their Russian/Iran love is so demeaning to true patriots.
 

pmaitra

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It is a fact that the Army has already told the Department of Defence Production that it will not expand its existing indent for 124 Arjun Mk.2s, as it does not need more heavy tanks.
P2P and Damian, I guess not everyone agrees with your assertion that weight based classification is not used anymore? If this report is to be believed, you guys are badly misinformed.

My sources tell me that it was conveyed at the meeting that if India chose to license-build more T-90s, the cost of transferring any additional technology would be waivered.
Looks like the Russians have mastered the art of business very well. A very good transition into the world of capitalist profiteering. All that they care about is profits, unlike the USSR, that cared a lot more about goodwill.

Let water find its own level!

T-90 and variants thereof have reached the end of their development life cycle.
Arjun family, no matter whatever marks they put, is a legacy system.

Let's get on with the FMBT, IMO.

[HR][/HR]

Thread exists. Could be merged later after this gets exposure.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-mbt.html
 

Galaxy

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I am Pro-Russia and even Pro-Iran. However, Time has changed. This is the time, We should improve relation with Israel and US. We need them more than they need us. It's high time, we change our priorities and realise ground realities. We are not living in 70's but 2012. I personally feel, we lost two decades due to our old policy "Take everyone". It won't work. Today, we have so many friends but reliable very few. What Iran will do in case of War against Pak ? They will side with Pak like they did in 65 and 71. Similarly, Russia has started improving relation with Pak and has good relation with China too and not to forget our Russians imports are declining. More it will decline, More distance! All Russian Projects are delayed and US delivers on time!
 
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Ray

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Weight , and even dimensions, matters since it affects bridge classification on either side of the border.
 

Known_Unknown

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How is that a backstab? Obviously Russians would want to sell their products, and they seem to be good salesmen. If India/DRDO cannot compete, it's no use blaming the competition. Improve yourselves or die off.....that's a basic fact of life.
 

Ray

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How is that a backstab? Obviously Russians would want to sell their products, and they seem to be good salesmen. If India/DRDO cannot compete, it's no use blaming the competition. Improve yourselves or die off.....that's a basic fact of life.

There are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know.

We have to wait and see.

This news report could also be motivated.

Or, it could be true too!
 

Known_Unknown

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There are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know.
That's exactly why speculation about potential motives is fruitless. Unfortunately, "journalists" like Mr. Aroor blur the line between journalism and blogging when they mix both but are faithful to neither.
 

pmaitra

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^^ True.

Mr. Aroor has not taken any sides and he refers to 'my sources,' i.e. his sources. He is fairly accurate though. He is probably playing it safe due to lack of concrete information.

I think the Indian Army is doing a great job thinking about the FMBT. IMI is out, thanks to their bribery. IMI has a wealth of knowledge on tank making. The Russians know better; why offer the bribe, if the same money can be spent on a waiver for future upgrades? Stay on the correct side of the law, get your business, kill the competition.
 

Known_Unknown

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Funny thing is, the Indian Army continues to insist on a massive Armoured Corps even though in the nuclear overhang between India and Pak, these tanks will be nothing but excellent ovens for the javans to get cooked in when Pakis get jittery and drop tactical nukes on advancing Indian tank formations.

Since we know a massive tank invasion of Pakistan is nothing but a fantasy in this brave new world, the thinking of the Army stragetists is a bit puzzling to say the least. What we should rather focus our energies on is a massive covert intelligence program focussed on obtaining as much information as possible on Paki nuclear assets, and developing sleeper cells targeting specific high ranking individuals of terrorist groups, ISI and the Army who sponsor terrorist attacks in India.
 

Mr.Ryu

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T90 series is one of the best in world that's for sure but ARMY must accept Arjun-II and encourage DRDO rather asking them to produce FMBT directly without any experience. It will also increase local job in this slow economy and eventually make our industries strong.
 

Adux

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T90 series is one of the best in world that's for sure but ARMY must accept Arjun-II and encourage DRDO rather asking them to produce FMBT directly without any experience. It will also increase local job in this slow economy and eventually make our industries strong.
You need to seriously shut up. T-90 is one of the best. what humbug.Have you seen the Georgian War?
 

Adux

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IMI getting banned has a lot of benefits for the Russian arms lobby in India, and they put all Indian projects at risks. And we have idiots over here still supporting Russia of some USSR hangover.
 

Adux

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I am Pro-Russia and even Pro-Iran. However, Time has changed. This is the time, We should improve relation with Israel and US. We need them more than they need us. It's high time, we change our priorities and realise ground realities. We are not living in 70's but 2012. I personally feel, we lost two decades due to our old policy "Take everyone". It won't work. Today, we have so many friends but reliable very few. What Iran will do in case of War against Pak ? They will side with Pak like they did in 65 and 71. Similarly, Russia has started improving relation with Pak and has good relation with China too and not to forget our Russians imports are declining. More it will decline, More distance! All Russian Projects are delayed and US delivers on time!

I am asking this with all the respect and humility, can you please remove your avatar of that disgusting human being.

Especially when you are asking for better relations with Israel and US.

And I agree with the rest of your post, there is a Russian move towards china.
 

Galaxy

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I am asking this with all the respect and humility, can you please remove your avatar of that disgusting human being.

Especially when you are asking for better relations with Israel and US.

And I agree with the rest of your post, there is a Russian move towards china.
I can understand, you have a point. DONE!!
 

The Messiah

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There are no friends in geopolitics.

What about the nuke deal backtstab by usa ?

blame the army rather than russia...it was our choice.
 

Adux

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There are no friends in geopolitics.

What about the nuke deal backtstab by usa ?

blame the army rather than russia...it was our choice.
Backstab? You mean they tried and they failed, because we dont agree to play by their rules and stop our Thorium reactors,

How does USA backstab equals to Russian Backstab? I thought Russia had a special place, why are we trying to connect to both issues and countries, when they arent connectable.
It is not Army's choice, it is the choice of Russian moles in the Army and Indian establishment. It is called placing the right people at the right place.
 

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