Indian Special Forces (archived)

[vampyrbladez]

no this isn’t true. The first NSG- USSOCOM joint ex wasn’t until 2015. NSG initiated a 5 year modernisation plan in 2010, this is the foundation of their capabilities today.

MARCOs have seen little progress in the last 10 years.



they are the most foreword thinking security unit in India can’t deny that.

That said they fall short operationally. They do not transport the PM’s official vehicle outside of the region. The biggest issue is that they are far far too reliant on host countries for logistics and even operationally. This is fine for most nations but as power status increases so does the threat matrix. Traditionally SPG has believed that their PM faces a greater threat at home then abroad, as threats increase this will change- USSS for example thinks the exact opposite way and acts accordingly

Recent pictures emerging of the MARCOs seem to dispute your argument. They have improved in terms of gear and tactics.

NSG got an impetus after 26/11. However until 2016 onwards we saw no significant change in gear or tactics.

SPG is an odd ball SF unit. It's role was to replace the SFF as the PM's dedicated security agency. God willing all will benefit as modernisation continues.

 

[singhboy98]

they are the most foreword thinking security unit in India can’t deny that.

That said they fall short operationally. They do not transport the PM’s official vehicle outside of the region. The biggest issue is that they are far far too reliant on host countries for logistics and even operationally. This is fine for most nations but as power status increases so does the threat matrix. Traditionally SPG has believed that their PM faces a greater threat at home then abroad, as threats increase this will change- USSS for example thinks the exact opposite way and acts accordingly

The fact of the matter is that transporting your own fleet of vehicles overseas is a redundant exercise when the vehicles you use are generic models of foreign variety. For instance, the RR Sentinel used by the SPG nowadays or the BMW 7 Security Edition used before are not unique at all. Anyone with enough money can buy those. What is even more embarrassing is that these cars are available a dime-a-dozen in European nations. That is why it makes no sense transporting these cars abroad.

Meanwhile, look at the land-transportation systems of the US President/Russian President or the Chinese Premier. They use vehicles that are uniquely built for them and not available outside a restricted government pool. That is why it makes sense to utilize precious heavy airlift capacity of your nation's airforce to transport these (which our IAF lacks). The USSS is particularly anal about these things considering President Obama broke precedent and established protocols by not sharing the President's limo while arriving at the Republic Day parade.

Hence, we need domestic auto-manufacturers to create a suitable vehicle which is unique to the Indian Head of State and Government. Only then will it will make sense for the SPG ship these vehicles abroad else it will just be money down the drain (like it was till KR Narayan's time when the Mercedes Presidential limo was shipped abroad.)

 

[vampyrbladez]

The fact of the matter is that transporting your own fleet of vehicles overseas is a redundant exercise when the vehicles you use are generic models of foreign variety. For instance, the RR Sentinel used by the SPG nowadays or the BMW 7 Security Edition used before are not unique at all. Anyone with enough money can buy those. What is even more embarrassing is that these cars are available a dime-a-dozen in European nations. That is why it makes no sense transporting these cars abroad.

Meanwhile, look at the land-transportation systems of the US President/Russian President or the Chinese Premier. They use vehicles that are uniquely built for them and not available outside a restricted government pool. That is why it makes sense to utilize precious heavy airlift capacity of your nation's airforce to transport these (which our IAF lacks). The USSS is particularly anal about these things considering President Obama broke precedent and established protocols by not sharing the President's limo while arriving at the Republic Day parade.

Hence, we need domestic auto-manufacturers to create a suitable vehicle which is unique to the Indian Head of State and Government. Only then will it will make sense for the SPG ship these vehicles abroad else it will just be money down the drain (like it was till KR Narayan's time when the Mercedes Presidential limo was shipped abroad.)

You need to ship them so that they don't turn out to be bugged and siphon off crucial intelligence from the subject.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

No idea who they are but someone very knowledgeable told me they are 100% not SFF. The unit looks pretty mixed to me between mainlanders and NE guys

Man that K9 is just really throwing me, this isn’t a capability that is just bought off the shelf.

I m not much concerned about the K9 thing it is simple...

Ex NSG guys who are para sf operators when return to their unit are asked to share what they have learned and this might be one of the things.

 

[abingdonboy]

The fact of the matter is that transporting your own fleet of vehicles overseas is a redundant exercise when the vehicles you use are generic models of foreign variety. For instance, the RR Sentinel used by the SPG nowadays or the BMW 7 Security Edition used before are not unique at all. Anyone with enough money can buy those. What is even more embarrassing is that these cars are available a dime-a-dozen in European nations. That is why it makes no sense transporting these cars abroad.

Meanwhile, look at the land-transportation systems of the US President/Russian President or the Chinese Premier. They use vehicles that are uniquely built for them and not available outside a restricted government pool. That is why it makes sense to utilize precious heavy airlift capacity of your nation's airforce to transport these (which our IAF lacks). The USSS is particularly anal about these things considering President Obama broke precedent and established protocols by not sharing the President's limo while arriving at the Republic Day parade.

Hence, we need domestic auto-manufacturers to create a suitable vehicle which is unique to the Indian Head of State and Government. Only then will it will make sense for the SPG ship these vehicles abroad else it will just be money down the drain (like it was till KR Narayan's time when the Mercedes Presidential limo was shipped abroad.)

You’re conflating things here. Whilst I agree that domestic companies need to be roped in and the long term goal should be that the PM is being transported in a 100% Indian product this is only part of the puzzle.

The bigger issue is chain of custody. When the PM’s fleet is bought it is 100% owned and operated by the SPG, the mechanics and drivers might be trained by the OEMs but that’s the last time they will ever see it. On delivery the vehicle is stripped down and swept for bugs


As such the biggest concern will always be espionage- having the PM’s conversations listened in on and movements tracked. So it doesn’t matter if these types of cars are readily available elsewhere, to have to use them on loan is a big no-no. For Putin the Russians used to use Mercedes S600 Pullman limos before they moved to their Russian limo (Arus) and they would transport this wherever Putin went anywhere in the world. It didn’t matter that the limo was German origin.

Protocols need to be much much tighter for the PM abroad particularly now that the second strike option is within his fingertips 24/7. The risk of a decapitation strike or procedures being exposed is more serious than ever before.

+ moving around the president’s limo makes no sense as he’s purely ceremonial post. PM is entirely different matter.

 

[abingdonboy]

Recent pictures emerging of the MARCOs seem to dispute your argument. They have improved in terms of gear and tactics.

NSG got an impetus after 26/11. However until 2016 onwards we saw no significant change in gear or tactics.

SPG is an odd ball SF unit. It's role was to replace the SFF as the PM's dedicated security agency. God willing all will benefit as modernisation continues.

What tactics have improved from MARCOs? A lot of their drills look sloppy and equipment is mis-matched

NSG improved significantly starting 2010 not just their equipment but their training and tactics too. Their drills are very slick these days and they are easily the most squared away elite unit not counting SPG

I m not much concerned about the K9 thing it is simple...

Ex NSG guys who are para sf operators when return to their unit are asked to share what they have learned and this might be one of the things.

It’s not that simple. This isn’t a simple piece of kit that they have used and then acquired on a local level when they got back to their unit. To get a K9 capability would require extensive infrastructure creation and a lot of training. It’s a capability that SF have never had organically before. I don’t think this could just happen at the team or even btn level, it would need senior level approval.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

What tactics have improved from MARCOs? A lot of their drills look sloppy and equipment is mis-matched

NSG improved significantly starting 2010 not just their equipment but their training and tactics too. Their drills are very slick these days and they are easily the most squared away elite unit not counting SPG




It’s not that simple. This isn’t a simple piece of kit that they have used and then acquired on a local level when they got back to their unit. To get a K9 capability would require extensive infrastructure creation and a lot of training. It’s a capability that SF have never had organically before. I don’t think this could just happen at the team or even btn level, it would need senior level approval.

The Army has that infrastructure for k9 training since many years and its the best infrastructure in the region.

 

[abingdonboy]

The Army has that infrastructure for k9 training since many years and its the best infrastructure in the region.

For EOD dogs maybe (although I hear ITBP is very good too) but for assault dogs NSG are the premier K9 trainers in India. The army actually has very few assault dogs and I’m not sure if they’ve inducted Malonois yet. Read the article from Sandeep A few pages back- seems IA tried out assault dogs (German Shepherds) in JK a few years back but they had bad results because of poor training.

Best K9 trainers in the region are NSG now it has to be said and by a huge margin. Their bomb detection and assault K9s are second to none.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Samsung S20 Military edition.

Newly launced.

 

[abingdonboy]

Samsung S20 Military edition.

Newly launced.

See these kind of computers on most French SF and a few Delta so far. The IA tried out a version of it a few years back under BMS trails and we all know what happens to these things.

 

[ALBY]

See these kind of computers on most French SF and a few Delta so far. The IA tried out a version of it a few years back under BMS trails and we all know what happens to these things.

Iirc Golden division of Iraqi army too were using such tabs for ops, saw in youtube.

 

[Shaitan]

Marcos

 

[singhboy98]

You need to ship them so that they don't turn out to be bugged and siphon off crucial intelligence from the subject.

I am aware of this. This is why the US President has a portable/mobile SCIF tent wherever he goes. I have heard that the Russian/Chinese premier have similar arrangements nowadays. Not sure about any such measures used by us. However, from what I have heard from people in the know, the general rule of thumb whilst overseas is that your conversations/communications are not secure and hence sensitive talks be kept to the minimum.

You’re conflating things here. Whilst I agree that domestic companies need to be roped in and the long term goal should be that the PM is being transported in a 100% Indian product this is only part of the puzzle.

The bigger issue is chain of custody. When the PM’s fleet is bought it is 100% owned and operated by the SPG, the mechanics and drivers might be trained by the OEMs but that’s the last time they will ever see it. On delivery the vehicle is stripped down and swept for bugs


As such the biggest concern will always be espionage- having the PM’s conversations listened in on and movements tracked. So it doesn’t matter if these types of cars are readily available elsewhere, to have to use them on loan is a big no-no. For Putin the Russians used to use Mercedes S600 Pullman limos before they moved to their Russian limo (Arus) and they would transport this wherever Putin went anywhere in the world. It didn’t matter that the limo was German origin.

Protocols need to be much much tighter for the PM abroad particularly now that the second strike option is within his fingertips 24/7. The risk of a decapitation strike or procedures being exposed is more serious than ever before.

I fully concur with your line if thinking. As you may already know, in India, unlike the USA, the SPG does not have a final veto on the Prime Minister's activities and other protocols especially when visiting USA (even the USSS operates under some restrictions in this regard but they are nowhere as restrictive as those of the SPG). Further, whenever the SPG has to operate with the USSS, it has one arm tied behind its back. Some of you may have noticed that the SPG personnel generally have their PPWs out whenever the PM is in close proximity to a crowd or has prolonged outdoors exposure. However, that practice is abolished whenever the USSS (with POTUS ) is in town. There are a lot of such instances which are open knowledge in the Indian security establishment. Just ask any of your contacts about such tales, they will have thousands of such anecdotes where the SPG was forced to take a step-back to the dictates of babus.

Information security, passive penetration etc. were not on the minds of Indian policymakers until very recently. Just think of this, the Indian Prime Ministers always stayed at the Waldorf Astoria in New York. That hotel is the absolute anathema of a secure facility if something like that ever existed. There was some consternation regarding this (OSINT0 on the eve of PM Modi's first visit in 2015. I don't know if things have changed since then. Regarding a decapitation strike, the PM is the most unsafe when he is travelling on that 747-400 on a long overseas trip. Might as well book him on Etihad first class. At least he will be more comfortable

moving around the president’s limo makes no sense as he’s purely ceremonial post. PM is entirely different matter

And that is why President Kalam (or President KRN in the later part of his term) had this abolished.

 

[vampyrbladez]

What tactics have improved from MARCOs? A lot of their drills look sloppy and equipment is mis-matched

Gear is fairly uniform and some of it is even better than NSG. However they need more cross training with Western SOF.

 

[abingdonboy]

However, from what I have heard from people in the know, the general rule of thumb whilst overseas is that your conversations/communications are not secure and hence sensitive talks be kept to the minimum.

This is all well and good when you’re a minor power but when you are a regional/global one and are constantly involved in a dynamic situation it’s ridiculous to expect you can’t have sensitive discussions during foreign trips. This is the job of SPG and Indian agencies to make it possible.

I heard this was a major constraint during the Paris climate talks, the Indian side felt they were being f sabotaged by “friendly eyes” aware of their closed door meetings.

I guess as long as India sees itself as a nobody then these things won’t change

USA (even the USSS operates under some restrictions in this regard but they are nowhere as restrictive as those of the SPG). Further, whenever the SPG has to operate with the USSS, it has one arm tied behind its back. Some of you may have noticed that the SPG personnel generally have their PPWs out whenever the PM is in close proximity to a crowd or has prolonged outdoors exposure. However, that practice is abolished whenever the USSS (with POTUS ) is in town. There are a lot of such instances which are open knowledge in the Indian security establishment. Just ask any of your contacts about such tales, they will have thousands of such anecdotes where the SPG was forced to take a step-back to the dictates of babus.

not unique to dealing with USSS but yes they are particularly abrasive and SPG has had to fight back with them a lot. I remember when Ivanka was going to India and was due to meet Modi, SPG had to put its foot down and say no USSS Officer could be armed in the presence of the PM. Apparently USSS is used to getting their way and throwing their weight around even in the face of the head of a government’s security protocol. Naturally SPG got their way as they were threatening to cancel the event otherwise.

Regarding a decapitation strike, the PM is the most unsafe when he is travelling on that 747-400 on a long overseas trip

100%. Always blew my mind that the PM was going around the world in effectively a commercial jet with some reconfigured interiors. Always assumed it had an SPS and secure comns- nope, literally just a standard 747-400, even flown by AI line pilots!

at least the B777-200LRs coming to replace them will be 100% used for VVIP travel only and are coming with a full SPS and secure comns facility. Afaik they will also be with IAF solely now.

(I know about the BBJs being secure but they will never leave the region

Gear is fairly uniform and some of it is even better than NSG. However they need more cross training with Western SOF.

Gear is uniform but so what? Delhi SWAT has pretty uniform gear, doesn’t mean it’s any good. MARCOs have made minimal updates for about a decade now. Not sure what they have that is better than NSG’s. NSG is superior in every aspect in terms of optimisation for their role.

MARCOs get very little relevant cross training with foreign units. They do some joint VBSS exercises with a friendly navy, that’s about it.

 

[aditya g]

Those guys dont look like the typical 9,10 or 4 Para guys.

All of them look like from NE..and i doubt there is any para unit with so many NE feature guys except 21 para.

What is the SFF upto these days?

The encounter was at Ban Toll Plaza, Nagrota - 40-50 kilometer from Udhampur.

The 'commandos' drove to the sight by truck so must be reasonably close.

2 + 2 = 9SF

 

[aditya g]

I was reading again that article on NDTV about a special "Surgical Strike Unit". At the time I dismissed it thinking it was just some silly journo using cool words. Secondly i thought it was a piece about AFSOD.

Looking at it again though, this may be a smaller unit reporting to NSA rather than AFSOD:

....The new unit will come under the direct control of the Army chief, the official said. "It will have two groups -- planning and assault," he said.

The government has chosen 96 members for the planning group, and 124 for the assault group.

The assault group is further divided into two sub-units -- namely, attack and support units to ensure smooth deployment and seamless coordination. The unit is the brainchild of National Security Adviser Ajit Doval, a senior officer of the National Security Council said. "A note pertaining to it has been sent to the cabinet committee," he said.

The soldiers in the attack unit, apart from having top fighting skills, will know specialised field craft such as reading hi-tech maps and coordinating with air support, which the unit will eventually get. The support group will have soldiers who have local knowledge of the target area and can provide intelligence inputs to the assault unit.

"It's going to a cohesive unit. Those who have expertise in CI-ops (counter-insurgency) will be engaged in this group," the official said. .......

 

[abingdonboy]

I was reading again that article on NDTV about a special "Surgical Strike Unit". At the time I dismissed it thinking it was just some silly journo using cool words. Secondly i thought it was a piece about AFSOD.

Looking at it again though, this may be a smaller unit reporting to NSA rather than AFSOD:

Answerable to the army chief not the NSA it says in the article. Never heard anything about this but I like what I am hearing- tiny group with its own support wing and air assets.

it sounds more like a military intel unit with assault capabilities, maybe trying to replicate TSD? I guess we’ll never hear about this group unless CONgress fkers get in again and start dismantling it. Would love to know if this became a reality, what kind of gear they got, who they recruited from and the kind of Ops they get up to

 

[vampyrbladez]

This is all well and good when you’re a minor power but when you are a regional/global one and are constantly involved in a dynamic situation it’s ridiculous to expect you can’t have sensitive discussions during foreign trips. This is the job of SPG and Indian agencies to make it possible.

I heard this was a major constraint during the Paris climate talks, the Indian side felt they were being f sabotaged by “friendly eyes” aware of their closed door meetings.

I guess as long as India sees itself as a nobody then these things won’t change



not unique to dealing with USSS but yes they are particularly abrasive and SPG has had to fight back with them a lot. I remember when Ivanka was going to India and was due to meet Modi, SPG had to put its foot down and say no USSS Officer could be armed in the presence of the PM. Apparently USSS is used to getting their way and throwing their weight around even in the face of the head of a government’s security protocol. Naturally SPG got their way as they were threatening to cancel the event otherwise.


100%. Always blew my mind that the PM was going around the world in effectively a commercial jet with some reconfigured interiors. Always assumed it had an SPS and secure comns- nope, literally just a standard 747-400, even flown by AI line pilots!

at least the B777-200LRs coming to replace them will be 100% used for VVIP travel only and are coming with a full SPS and secure comns facility. Afaik they will also be with IAF solely now.

(I know about the BBJs being secure but they will never leave the region


Gear is uniform but so what? Delhi SWAT has pretty uniform gear, doesn’t mean it’s any good. MARCOs have made minimal updates for about a decade now. Not sure what they have that is better than NSG’s. NSG is superior in every aspect in terms of optimisation for their role.

MARCOs get very little relevant cross training with foreign units. They do some joint VBSS exercises with a friendly navy, that’s about it.

Comparing Delhi SWAT to MARCOS!

They're a meme now in terms of modernisation!

Marcos now have the following equipment across the ranks consistently :

• High cut helmets
• MOLLE style BPJ
• Handsfree communication device
• NVG (Per requirement)

Some of the new additions are :

• Insert based Knee Pads
• Carabiners
• Drones

Situation improves visibly as photos from new exercises are added to the public collection.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

The encounter was at Ban Toll Plaza, Nagrota - 40-50 kilometer from Udhampur.

The 'commandos' drove to the sight by truck so must be reasonably close.

2 + 2 = 9SF

Not necessarily.

your Measurements are in one direction..there are bases on every heading from nagrota.