Indian Navy still have eyes on F-35

[HMS Astute]

Stealth RCS based on lowest score.

F-22 = 0.0001
F-35 = 0.005
T-50 = 0.3

 

[HMS Astute]

I did mention that F-35 is stealthier and mentioned as "not sure" as i donno about stealthiness of PAK-FA.. one thing is that one aircraft carrier for example can accommodate say 20 F-35 then it it can easily accommodate 15 pak-fa's and PAK-FA is indigenous..

As mentioned several times that they are different aircraft which are differently designed for different purpose.

 

[Meriv90]

Stay away from the F-35 it isn't a fact of prestations or cost, the reason is a simple no one, not even the USAF will have total control on the platform except LM, for both UK/ITA adapting our weaponry for it it is a nearly impossible task. I think both countries should do (with netherlands too) an ultimatum to gain more control or not buy at all.

And there is zero ToT in production, LM use expats workers to apply(in secret) the stealth layer for example.

 

[p2prada]

Stealth RCS based on lowest score.

F-22 = 0.0001
F-35 = 0.005
T-50 = 0.3

F-22 = 0.0001 >>>> Butter
F-35 = 0.005 >>>>> Butter
T-50 = 0.3 >>>>>> Honey

I hope you get what I'm saying.

 

[HMS Astute]

Butter tastes better, though. :cool2:

 

[HMS Astute]

The more F-35 is sold to international customers, the better for thousands of professionals and engineers in the UK who make many parts of the F35 aircraft. Not sure how capable this aircraft is, but the giant defence contractor, the BAE Systems is benefiting from this expensive project and keeping many British skilled workers employed.

 

[Bheeshma]

Those Rcs numbers are pure bs.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

F35? Seriously?its an awesome fighter but Its too late for an order. Lets stick with MiGs and Tejas for now. If AMCA is develped within time, its naval version can also be considered.

 

[CrYsIs]

F35? Seriously?its an awesome fighter but Its too late for an order. Lets stick with MiGs and Tejas for now. If AMCA is develped within time, its naval version can also be considered.

No chance of AMCA rolling out before 2025,the project has been on back burner because HAL is prioritizing FGFA and LCA MK 2.

Again looking at HAL's performance i am not very optimistic about the whole AMCA thing.This is a country that is literally struggling to make even a jet trainer and therefore dreaming of a 5th gen fighter is a far fetched dream.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

No chance of AMCA rolling out before 2025,the project has been on back burner because HAL is prioritizing FGFA and LCA MK 2.

Again looking at HAL's performance i am not very optimistic about the whole AMCA thing.This is a country that is literally struggling to make even a jet trainer and therefore dreaming of a 5th gen fighter is a far fetched dream.

Even if we consider F35, and the tedious work before induction, even it will not be inducted before 2022 . I think Tejas MK2 will be inducted faster as new Govt. is quite assertive and strict on time management. They have already warned DRDO to complete its projects and also said only give new jobs to younger talents under the age of 35 ! Looks like the "ache din" are coming for our defence forces too...

 

[CrYsIs]

Even if we consider F35, and the tedious work before induction, even it will not be inducted before 2022 . I think Tejas MK2 will be inducted faster as new Govt. is quite assertive and strict on time management. They have already warned DRDO to complete its projects and also said only give new jobs to younger talents under the age of 35 ! Looks like the "ache din" are coming for our defence forces too...

You are being overly optimistic about HAL and Indian public sector enterprises.A mere warning or veiled threat won't work since they do not have the level of competence to handle so many projects.

Regarding Tejas MK2,how are you so sure that the project will be completed on time even when the grossly outdated MK1 hasn't even achieved FOC ? Last i heard the FOC date has been again postponed to mid next year.

HAL needs a complete restructuring with govt shares no more than 50%.When when it becomes a private/semi private company,only then can we expect it to perform well.Otherwise with it's current state of affairs,it stands no chance.

 

[ersakthivel]

You are being overly optimistic about HAL and Indian public sector enterprises.A mere warning or veiled threat won't work since they do not have the level of competence to handle so many projects.

Regarding Tejas MK2,how are you so sure that the project will be completed on time even when the grossly outdated MK1 hasn't even achieved FOC ? Last i heard the FOC date has been again postponed to mid next year.

HAL needs a complete restructuring with govt shares no more than 50%.When when it becomes a private/semi private company,only then can we expect it to perform well.Otherwise with it's current state of affairs,it stands no chance.

Who told you mk1 is greatly outdated?

Chief test pilot and IAF group captain Suneeth krishna has said that Tejas mk1 is at least equal to upgraded Mirage-2000. he certainly knows a thing or two about aerodynamics , since he has flown hundreds of hours on both tejas and mirage-2000.

FOC getting held up for six months is no big issue. Production will go on. Nothing will stop.

IAF is buying MMRCA for 15 years from 1999!!!. compared to that tejas mk1's funding for two TDs were released only in 1994. Now in 2014 SP-1 is about to join with an established production line.

Indian army is buying Howitzers for eons, two decades , still they could not decide which to buy.

just name one world class high end product developed by indian private industry with in house reasearch.

We needed a HONDA to come in and give us a mono shockabsorber , which couldn't be designed and produced by any indian private sector company with its own in house R&D!!!!

They never thought it fit to produce one eventhough it will be an USP in potholed indian roads.

After sixty years of freedom , only now we have an automotive engine developed inhouse by TATAs with reverton in Zest on indian roads.So expecting them to perform miracle is of no use.

For that to happen Services should accept products in tranches to be upgraded periodically with big enough numbers that assure return on the investments. If orders were given like 40 tejas mk1 and 126 Arjun mk1 their capital will be wiped out!!!!


Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister

K-9 itself is still a work in progress with many things needed to be ironed out as said by Avinash chander in the interview,

Saurav Jha: And what is the status of the flagship Turbofan development, the Kaveri?

Avinash Chander: Kaveri was tested continuously for 53 hours on a flying test bed in Russia where all the major parameters were proven. There were certain observations which are now being addressed at the lab level. We have put up a proposal to the government to continue. So that we have a viable engine at the end of it. More importantly Kaveri will have to be modified for use in the unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV). As that comes under MTCR and nobody will give us engines. So Kaveri will essentially be a lifeline for that program.

For example Egypt when it pursued an engine program in the 80s bought dedicated high altitude testing platform then itself for their jet engine development effort. GTRE still does not have one. And GTRE chief has gone on record saying that they wasted many years in solving the blade throw problem here because the testing facility was not built here. Finally after a long delay they took their engine to Germany and then only found out the problem , which was rectified later.

But issues like these are never reported in DDMs. instead what we get is "CRIPPLING DELAYS BY DRDO" and REFUSAL by GTRE with no connection to real issues involved.

stuff like this is never reported in DDM,

Saurav Jha: But in some areas such as drive trains, the Indian automobile sector is not really at par with the rest of the world. So that suggests that some technology gaps may yet require public investment to be bridged. Again, the latest budget has seen a substantial increase in the outlay for DRDO, but is it enough? Does DRDO today have enough manpower and enough resources?

Avinash Chander: With the enhanced budget we are comfortable for the time being. Secondly, for many of the future developments there will be partnership from the armed forces, from industry and so on. All the money need not come from DRDO, should not come from DRDO in fact, because we want commitment from all segments.

Another important part that you referred to is of course manpower. That is a serious area of concern. We have been carrying on, but we are finding serious difficulties because today we are saturated at about 7500 scientists, which basically means that there are a very small number of scientists per program.

We are finding different means for outsourcing some of the more routine activities, but what for all the major programs on the anvil we need around 300-350 fresh young minds to be inducted every year who would bring new ideas, new dynamism. Today we are inducting hardly seventy people to offset retirements. So we have put up a case to government for enhancement of manpower and are looking to induct some 2700 scientists in phases over the next decade, so that our base can become strong. That base will create the dynamism for the future.

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander doesn't this lead to that old chicken and egg situation, where the private sector doesn't come in without assured demand, but to create the demand itself you have to make upfront investments?

Avinash Chander: I think the scenario is changing. Because there has been an unnecessary hesitation in conveying the numbers. Fact is we need numbers. Everybody knows we need numbers. And if we need numbers, we can convey the numbers to whichever industry whether public or private, subject to that industry meeting the specified requirements. If it doesn't meet requirements, we don't accept, just like any other thing which we go and buy. If something doesn't meet my specifications, I go and return the item or I don't accept it at all.

So there shouldn't be a worry, that if it doesn't meet (specifications), as to what one should do. I think a realization has dawned that if time cycles have to be cut down, if capacity has to be created, if people have to be drawn in to invest in the creation of knowledge, it is essential that an integrated planning approach be adopted. Wherein all stages from development to product support during the life cycle be treated as an integrated activity. Then only can we be cost effective, time effective, and can create state of the art products.

For the past ten years these issues were never addressed by UPA govt. DDMs never cared to report about it.

only after the new govt takes over we are finding more sound and fury, lets hope something useful comes out of all the pretty impressive sound bites so far.

if IAf orders just 40 tejas mk1s and 126 arjun mk1s which private industry will sink in its capital and see it vanish into thin air?

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

You are being overly optimistic about HAL and Indian public sector enterprises.A mere warning or veiled threat won't work since they do not have the level of competence to handle so many projects.

Regarding Tejas MK2,how are you so sure that the project will be completed on time even when the grossly outdated MK1 hasn't even achieved FOC ? Last i heard the FOC date has been again postponed to mid next year.

HAL needs a complete restructuring with govt shares no more than 50%.When when it becomes a private/semi private company,only then can we expect it to perform well.Otherwise with it's current state of affairs,it stands no chance.

By faster, i meant faster in respect to other projects. Obviously it would also be delayed. History tells 1st design always takes time(accepted 25 yrs is too much!). And I presented the scenario in which HAL would focus only on MK2, AMCA will be delayed.

 

[sorcerer]

Congress' Watchdog Thinks America Can't Afford the F-35


New report reads like a passive-aggressive letter between spouses

The F-35 is the most expensive weapon the Pentagon has ever built. Current estimates put the total cost of the jet's maintenance and operation at more than $1 trillion.

This number is for all the jets over their entire lifespan, but it's also just for operations and maintenance. But this amount doesn't take into account the acquisition cost"Š—"Šthe cash taxpayers have spent so far to design and build the damn things.

The acquisition cost is just shy of $400 billion, and the military will need more cash to finish the job, according to a new report from the Government Accountability Office"Š—"ŠCongress' independent watchdog and reporting agency.

The 40-page report, released on April 14, is a well-researched, succinct and thorough evaluation of the problems and costs associated with the F-35 to date. The GAO has followed the F-35 for years, cataloging all its issues and shortcomings.
"If required funding levels are not reached, the program's procurement plan may not be affordable," it wrote. "The consistent changes in F-35 procurement plans indicate that [the Pentagon's] prior analyses did not adequately account for future technical and funding uncertainty."

The GAO has followed the embattled jets for years. Back in 2010, the National Defense Authorization Act required the office to review the F-35 program every year for the next six years.

But the congressional watchdog has been sounding the alarm on the controversial jet since well before 2010. "We have reported on F-35 issues for many years," it wrote. "Over time, we have reported significant cost, schedule, and performance problems."

The GAO blamed the bulk of these problems on two issues.

It stated the Pentagon made decisions "without adequate product knowledge." The watchdog added that the military wanted a new jet and wanted it fast. As a result, it didn't take the time to properly research and design the plane before rushing it into production.

The GAO stated that the military fast-tracked the development of the F-35 by building and developing its various pieces concurrently. Too many individual departments built pieces of the jet, tested them independently, then brought them together without ever really being sure if the equipment would work.

That last bit, the concurrent development cycle, has played havoc on the F-35. The Pentagon has had to delay testing, fix cracked bulkheads and redesign busted engines"Š—"Šall made worse by the fact that a lot of different companies manufacture too many individual components.

For example, the jet's airframe and engine are both part of the F-35 program. Lockheed Martin handles the airframe, but Pratt & Whitney assembles the engines in Connecticut, sells them to the Pentagon which then delivers them Lockheed. "This same highly concurrent strategy has already proven to have negatively impacted the program," the GAO stated.

The GAO then noted that the cost of the fleet could run upward of $1 trillion over the weapons lifetime. "Which poses significant affordability challenges."

No kidding.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/co...hink-america-can-afford-the-f-35-8dcc1e0ce29e
==

F-35 is ponzi scheme by the US Govt..India need not subscribe to it to cut the american loss

 

[archie]

PAKFA is a air superiority one.

Pakfa is a mulirole aircraft. Essentially meaning it can strike. It shares the same wepon carrying attachments and has all the tragetting radar it needs.. Please tell me what other capability do you expect from a strike aircraft? not to mention its capable to carrying 4*500Kg Air to ground bombs in addition to Air to air for self protection

F-35C Loadout

6 Extrnal hardpoints with load of 6800Kg and 4 internal 1300 Kg .. Compared to this PAKFA can anyday be called a strike Aircraft

Range Estmates

F35 - 2200Km on Internal fuel
Pakfa - 3500Km Subsonic 1500Km Supersonic

Anyway you look at PAKFA is essentially a strike aircradt which is quite aerodynamic

 

[archie]

Stealth RCS based on lowest score.

F-22 = 0.0001
F-35 = 0.005
T-50 = 0.3

How is that you know T-50 has that score .. its still undegoing aerodynamic modifications I am guessing they dont apply stealth coatings now..

Eitherway IRST has come a long way .. IR signature being the way it is and Sensor fusion coming into play advanages can be very slim..

 

[Yusuf]

Russians are not sure of PAKFA. Why should we fund their research?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

If indian navy wants air superiority over Asia for at least next five decades f-35 is the logical choice

 

[archie]

Russians are not sure of PAKFA. Why should we fund their research?

Thats not true.. Just as defense budget is linked to our economy so is theirs . Russia's Econommy is linked to hydro carbons the major ones it sells to EU. The Oil price drop has burnt the Economy hence slowing down spening for new products . thats the reason they are utting back on PAKFA and not because of anything else.

At such a juncture we can get better terms for TOT and more colaboration with the actual companies that are making the aircraft as we can become equal partner very easily

 

[grampiguy]

If indian navy wants air superiority over Asia for at least next five decades f-35 is the logical choice

If India wants to dominate global naval warfare domain, it needs to build catobar 85,000 ton carriers (minimum six) with T-50 PAKFA marine version along with MiG-29/Rafale/LCA Navy on it. There will be no match of that fighter-carrier combo in marine domain anywhere in the world.

Already, a section of US Navy is apprehensive of this situation in future, if I go buy their online forum discussions.