Indian Navy still have eyes on F-35

[Neeraj Mathur]

Indian Navy still have eyes on F-35

It was 5 years ago when Indian Navy had floated a Request for Information (RFI) for a newer generation of aircraft which can operate from the two indigenous aircraft carriers, RFI was issued so that Indian navy could study the aircrafts,can be purchased to be operated for second aircraft carrier . Indian navy has already ordered 45 Mig 29Ks for the INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant and also is supporting development of Naval LCA which will be operated along with Mig-29k .

INS Vishal, India's second indigenous aircraft carrier which is planned to be of 65,000 ton displacement will be of CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) configuration , which means aircraft will require catapult-assisted take-off . While Indian navy usually maintains commonality with aircrafts used by Indian air force in its fleet , but Indian navy clearly is not keen on Dassault Rafale M , since mostly likely a decision for purchase will happen post 2020-22 time frame , Navy is keen on purchase of 5th generation Fighter aircraft , since construction of second indigenous aircraft carrier is yet to take off and is still in drawing boards .

Lockheed Martin delegation has already briefed Indian navy few years ago on naval variants of the F-35B and C, suitable for operation from India's current and future aircraft carriers. It will be interesting to see if Indian navy will still be interested in F-35 variant almost 10 years down the line .

Indian Navy still have eyes on F-35 | idrw.org

 

[SajeevJino]

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Sure we will operated couple of F 35 B from our Aircraft Carrier

 

[Pulkit]

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Sure we will operated couple of F 35 B from our Aircraft Carrier

not sure but wont we be having our own 5th gen around the same time......??

 

[jmj_overlord]

not sure but wont we be having our own 5th gen around the same time......??

amca will be introduced only by 2018 or beyond. By the time we can use f 35 or other other potential candidates for our navy

 

[Pulkit]

I thot Mig 29k and Tejas were already on order for till any induction of A/C carrier till 2025...After that INS vishal will be joining the fleet....i.e. after 2025....AMCA was planned to have it first flight by 2020 which is not possible but it is quite possible by 2025 under todays scenario..... so by the time INS will complete its sea trials + few years of delay.....AMCA will also be ready with its own share of delays....

amca will be introduced only by 2018 or beyond. By the time we can use f 35 or other other potential candidates for our navy

 

[brational]

By 2025, defence equipment imports must fall drastically. Indian defence industry must be able to deliver cutting edge equipments to the armed forces. At present a huge part of the defence budget goes to foreign vendors and the equipments sourced do not guarantee an edge over the rival countries due to dynamic geopolitical interests of the selling countries. Once russians were more than happy with india as a buyer of defence equipments, now they are exploring pakistan to sell their products. So self reliance is the key. A robust defence industry can help in saving lots of $ and create employment and open up a credible front to support the local ecomomy. India will be able to produce f35 type fighter jets within a decade considering the current joint projects with russia do not suffer from delays.

 

[ninja85]

sure why not its a superb product and machine incorporates various advanced age technologies one that are not easy to neglect easily.

 

[Bheeshma]

BS...F35 will never serve in IN

 

[Defcon 1]

.

Sure we will operated couple of F 35 B from our Aircraft Carrier

Not B, the F35C is a very strong contender for INS Vishal. Note that only capable CATOBAR fighters in the world when Vishal enters service will be F35C and Rafale-M.

 

[Defcon 1]

not sure but wont we be having our own 5th gen around the same time......??

No our fifth gen will come later. Its carrier version (if any) will come even more later.

 

[Eastman]

Not B, the F35C is a very strong contender for INS Vishal. Note that only capable CATOBAR fighters in the world at that time will be F35C and Rafale-M.

and PAK-FA-K :smegusta:

 

[Defcon 1]

and FAK-FA-K :smegusta:

I doubt they will get it working in time. Even if it works, I doubt IN will go for it, having rejected Su33 in favor of Mig29K. Heavy fighters are not suited for carrier usage. Thats why F14 had to give way to a smaller F18.

 

[Pulkit]

If we go by todays time line.... they are saying 2018-2020 we will have FGFA (its going as planned says many news sources)....So 5-7 years if we go strictly by the time line of 2025 will not be sufficient to have a carrier version? Or you are saying FGFA is not fit or will not be fit for carriers?

No our fifth gen will come later. Its carrier version (if any) will come even more later.

 

[Defcon 1]

If we go by todays time line.... they are saying 2018-2020 we will have FGFA (its going as planned says many news sources)....So 5-7 years if we go strictly by the time line of 2025 will not be sufficient to have a carrier version? Or you are saying FGFA is not fit or will not be fit for carriers?

No. FGFA will only come in the next decade, around 2022. We will still be receiving prototypes till 2019, so there is no question of induction in this decade. And there is no carrier version of FGFA planned anyways. The carrier versions of heavy fighter planes don't make sense since carrier space is constrained. Thats why all carrier aircraft are small or medium. Only Russia, which doesn't have a medium weight 5th gen program is going for a heavy carrier fighter. In our case, we will most probably develop a carrier version of AMCA. However, since that will come around 2030, F35C is an excellent choice for INS Vishal.

 

[Pulkit]

No. FGFA will only come in the next decade, around 2022. We will still be receiving prototypes till 2019, so there is no question of induction in this decade. And there is no carrier version of FGFA planned anyways. The carrier versions of heavy fighter planes don't make sense since carrier space is constrained. Thats why all carrier aircraft are small or medium. Only Russia, which doesn't have a medium weight 5th gen program is going for a heavy carrier fighter. In our case, we will most probably develop a carrier version of AMCA. However, since that will come around 2030, F35C is an excellent choice for INS Vishal.

you said prototype by 2019 ... i had said 2018-2020... no difference there.... dont you think there will be some delays in IAC-2 which can come as a blessing for AMCA?

You didnt answer is or is it not possible to make a carrier version of FGFA in 5-7 years time out of FGFA?
Or can't we just keep AMCA as planned stick to all deadlines....?


Just a ref from WIKI...
"The proposed design of the second carrier features significant changes from INS Vikrant (IAC-1), like an increase in displacement to over 65,000 tons and will be nuclear-powered with CATOBAR system to launch heavier aircraft like larger fighters, AEW (airborne early-warning) aircraft and mid-air refueling tankers"

Here its saying that we can have heavier aircrafts thats the major change .... Space yes is a constraint which will mean IF we can hve 3 medium then we are only having 2 heavy .... Sounds good to me if they are more capable though thats not my decision to make....


I dont want to get into how potent is F35 but if we go for F35 its surely gonna kill our AMCA plan just like Rafale is doing on our FGFA and Tejas...

 

[Defcon 1]

you said prototype by 2019 ... i had said 2018-2020... no difference there.... dont you think there will be some delays in IAC-2 which can come as a blessing for AMCA?

You didnt answer is or is it not possible to make a carrier version of FGFA in 5-7 years time out of FGFA?
Or can't we just keep AMCA as planned stick to all deadlines....?


Just a ref from WIKI...
"The proposed design of the second carrier features significant changes from INS Vikrant (IAC-1), like an increase in displacement to over 65,000 tons and will be nuclear-powered with CATOBAR system to launch heavier aircraft like larger fighters, AEW (airborne early-warning) aircraft and mid-air refueling tankers"

Here its saying that we can have heavier aircrafts thats the major change .... Space yes is a constraint which will mean IF we can hve 3 medium then we are only having 2 heavy .... Sounds good to me if they are more capable though thats not my decision to make....


I dont want to get into how potent is F35 but if we go for F35 its surely gonna kill our AMCA plan just like Rafale is doing on our FGFA and Tejas...

Let me say this for once. The earliest possible date of induction of FGFA is 2022, if everything goes well.
Making a carrier version of FGFA could take 8-10 years, but since that is not on the cards, we can safely assume that no carried version of FGFA will be built.
IAC-2 can be delayed, sure, but by how much? not 8-10 years. It is expected to enter service around 2022. So there are no chances of it getting AMCA. We will have to source fighters from outside.
The problem with heavy fighters is more than about space, they are much heavier than medium weight and hence it is difficult for them to take off at MTOW, since the runway on a carrier is much shorter than on an airfield. If a heavy fighter can't take off at MTOW, whats the use of having it in the first place. Thats why IN rejected the more capable Su33 in favor of Mig29K.

F35 won't kill AMCA, its just being bought for one ship. Likewise, Rafale didn't do anything to either FGFA or Tejas. Only ADA has got to be blamed for Tejas's failures. But that isn't the topic of discussion

 

[Pulkit]

Let me say this for once. The earliest possible date of induction of FGFA is 2022, if everything goes well.
Making a carrier version of FGFA could take 8-10 years, but since that is not on the cards, we can safely assume that no carried version of FGFA will be built.
IAC-2 can be delayed, sure, but by how much? not 8-10 years. It is expected to enter service around 2022. So there are no chances of it getting AMCA. We will have to source fighters from outside.
The problem with heavy fighters is more than about space, they are much heavier than medium weight and hence it is difficult for them to take off at MTOW, since the runway on a carrier is much shorter than on an airfield. If a heavy fighter can't take off at MTOW, whats the use of having it in the first place. Thats why IN rejected the more capable Su33 in favor of Mig29K.

F35 won't kill AMCA, its just being bought for one ship. Likewise, Rafale didn't do anything to either FGFA or Tejas. Only ADA has got to be blamed for Tejas's failures. But that isn't the topic of discussion

When you talk about FGFA or AMCA you quote the date that it will achieve or get inducted after adding delays and everything but when you talk about IAC-2 in 2022 then you stick to the official approach or timeline.... same way AMCA first flight was earlier 2017 then 2020 ... it will go beyond that for sure so I was saying 2025 for it 5 years added just for sake of delays lets add few more becoz thats how things here work let is be 2027.... So you are trying to say that IAC will stick to all its deadlines and get inducted by 2025?
Thats more than being optimistic.....
okay FGFA will take 8-10 years starting its first flight or full induction from when ?

If its first flight year say 2019 as per you it will be there by 2027 again around the same time.....of IAC-2....

So here we can depend on 2 aircrafts ......


INS Vishal will be Catapult based which means the runway length will not matter alot and even heavy aircrafts can take of easily.... Take off is not the problem we will see.....
on the contrary Catapult was designed for the same purpose.....


about fault of ADA yes they are guilty as you have said its entirely there fault........
but lets make a list of who all were responsible....


ADA
DRDO
HAL
GOVT
We



and dont forget ... IAF is also party to it... they are also responsible....



yeah it will not kill AMCA yeah yeah .... the next IAC will come say when by 2030-35 i.e. 10 years after AMCA will be developed approximately..... and in mean while money will be spent for F35 .... which are not cheap...... and then IN will just like IAF rise up and say its a decade old and will look for some other foreign toy... thats been happening for a long time......

 

[Defcon 1]

When you talk about FGFA or AMCA you quote the date that it will achieve or get inducted after adding delays and everything but when you talk about IAC-2 in 2022 then you stick to the official approach or timeline.... same way AMCA first flight was earlier 2017 then 2020 ... it will go beyond that for sure so I was saying 2025 for it 5 years added just for sake of delays lets add few more becoz thats how things here work let is be 2027.... So you are trying to say that IAC will stick to all its deadlines and get inducted by 2025?
Thats more than being optimistic.....
okay FGFA will take 8-10 years starting its first flight or full induction from when ?

If its first flight year say 2019 as per you it will be there by 2027 again around the same time.....of IAC-2....

So here we can depend on 2 aircrafts ......


INS Vishal will be Catapult based which means the runway length will not matter alot and even heavy aircrafts can take of easily.... Take off is not the problem we will see.....
on the contrary Catapult was designed for the same purpose.....


about fault of ADA yes they are guilty as you have said its entirely there fault........
but lets make a list of who all were responsible....


ADA
DRDO
HAL
GOVT
We



and dont forget ... IAF is also party to it... they are also responsible....



yeah it will not kill AMCA yeah yeah .... the next IAC will come say when by 2030-35 i.e. 10 years after AMCA will be developed approximately..... and in mean while money will be spent for F35 .... which are not cheap...... and then IN will just like IAF rise up and say its a decade old and will look for some other foreign toy... thats been happening for a long time......

I am not adding any delays for FGFA. Read thisFGFA to Reach India in 2014

2022 is the earliest possible optimistic date of induction. Now it is increasingly becoming clear that this deadline will be missed.

Official deadline of IAC-2 is 2020. I said 2022 because of recent reports of delays. So I know that even after considering all ifs and buts, we will need foreign fighters for IAC-2. AMCA will not come before 2030. IAC-2 will have been inducted long before that. Simple. We haven't even started talking about the naval version of AMCA yet.

FGFA naval version is not even on the cards, so there is no question of first flight. You are talking about hypothetical scenarios which don't exist. Take it simple. There is not going to be any naval FGFA.
So we can't depend on either aircraft.

Runway length matters everywhere. Thats why Americans who were flying F14 on CATOBARs decided to switch to smaller F18s.

Read about things before blaming IAF or IN. The programs which failed have only themselves to blame for it.

 

[Pulkit]

I know that most people here on DFI don't like WIki but this is what wiki says:
INS Vishal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Launched 2022 Commissioned 2025

HAL AMCA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
First flight early 2020

I don't totally go by these deadlines but using the same simple methodology of adding up delay ....

we can say by 2027 the year i have proposed earlier will be the meeting point or can be the meeting point for both these projects.....

Saying that they are also responsibile is not a crime..... and I have not said that others are not... some are less responsible some are more....

I think AMerican only wantend Catapult launch to launch there heavy Aircrafts ... I donno th ereason of the replacement you are referring to but apart from space issue is no issue is launching a heavy Aircraft from a Aircraft carrier....

F35 is not that great either it has its share of flaws and issues.... and some even claim its not as good as it is advertised....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pteMgYPm1xM

I am not adding any delays for FGFA. Read thisFGFA to Reach India in 2014

2022 is the earliest possible optimistic date of induction. Now it is increasingly becoming clear that this deadline will be missed.

Official deadline of IAC-2 is 2020. I said 2022 because of recent reports of delays. So I know that even after considering all ifs and buts, we will need foreign fighters for IAC-2. AMCA will not come before 2030. IAC-2 will have been inducted long before that. Simple. We haven't even started talking about the naval version of AMCA yet.

FGFA naval version is not even on the cards, so there is no question of first flight. You are talking about hypothetical scenarios which don't exist. Take it simple. There is not going to be any naval FGFA.
So we can't depend on either aircraft.

Runway length matters everywhere. Thats why Americans who were flying F14 on CATOBARs decided to switch to smaller F18s.

Read about things before blaming IAF or IN. The programs which failed have only themselves to blame for it.

 

[Defcon 1]

I know that most people here on DFI don't like WIki but this is what wiki says:
INS Vishal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Launched 2022 Commissioned 2025

HAL AMCA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
First flight early 2020

I don't totally go by these deadlines but using the same simple methodology of adding up delay ....

we can say by 2027 the year i have proposed earlier will be the meeting point or can be the meeting point for both these projects.....

Saying that they are also responsibile is not a crime..... and I have not said that others are not... some are less responsible some are more....

I think AMerican only wantend Catapult launch to launch there heavy Aircrafts ... I donno th ereason of the replacement you are referring to but apart from space issue is no issue is launching a heavy Aircraft from a Aircraft carrier....

F35 is not that great either it has its share of flaws and issues.... and some even claim its not as good as it is advertised....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pteMgYPm1xM

Get any proper proofs for your claims, and then we talk. If the numbers on wiki are not backed by proper references, then they have no value. As of today, there is no alternative other than from F35, Rafale-M or PAK FA (if IAF doesn't reject it beforehand.)