Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Lonewarrior]

Comrade @Spadex. Why didn't india developed a new kind of ammo like China did ?

Are you referring to 5.8x42mm?

The lightest load of 5.8x42mm is a ~4 gram one travelling at 930m/s. For that you have 5.56x45mm M855A1 with a ~4 gram projectile at 961m/s.
For heaviest, you have 5 gram projectile at 870m/s. Something quite similar to 77 grain NATO ammunition at 835m/s.

So what exactly are the benefits here of developed a new cartridge except that the enemy won't be able to use confiscated rounds.

And as long as why we didn't develop; cuz we don't have money. We don't find the justification to spend huge amount to money on R&D when the actual improvements are just marginal.

 

[SGOperative]

Literally Armed Forces of every other country on this god-damn planet support building up of the local MIC through continuous iterative development and hand-holding.

Nope they dont, Thats always has been the job of the higher leadership the one above millatiry the one which releases and approves fund usage. The user job is of selecting what works best for them.

 

[SGOperative]

Or were the trials carried out using ammo imported from the US.

Or were the trials carried out using ammo imported from the US.
Or was it the case that since its an import that it will rushed through trials and "jo hoga baad mei dekha jayega" mentality took over

It performed with no issues using the ammo imported from US, also according to Kunal we dont use any specific ammo for our MG its your standard M80.

 

[Love Charger]

Are you referring to 5.8x42mm?

The lightest load of 5.8x42mm is a ~4 gram one travelling at 930m/s. For that you have 5.56x45mm M855A1 with a ~4 gram projectile at 961m/s.
For heaviest, you have 5 gram projectile at 870m/s. Something quite similar to 77 grain NATO ammunition at 835m/s.

So what exactly are the benefits here of developed a new cartridge except that the enemy won't be able to use confiscated rounds.

And as long as why we didn't develop; cuz we don't have money. We don't find the justification to spend huge amount to money on R&D when the actual improvements are just marginal.

Thanks for the reply brother, much appreciated

 

[Johny_Baba]

At this stage my best ;suggestion; to PSUs and govt agencies like ARDE - DRDO - AWEIL (successor of OFB) is,
to revive MCIWS//AAR project, FIX SOME APPARENT DESIGN FLAWS ON IT, upscale it to 7.62 NATO...

i mean MCIWS/AAR isn't a perfect design judging from obvious things on it but it was more than enough as a base design for us, taking some good AR designs in mind-i'd say we go a step further and take SIG NGSW-R in mind since believe me many ways SIG NGSW-R and MCIWS are similar-and upscale the design to 7.62 NATO calibre;feeding from SR-25 pattern magazine to maintain commonality that way (alternatively feeding from 1A SLR pattern magazines)

This is doable and we could get a proper, potential replacement rifle of desi origins within 5-6 months maxx,

THEN MOST CRUCIAL STEP,
DESIGNATE THIS DESIGN AS SAY, MARK 0 AND GIVE IT OUT TO PRIVATE PLAYERS, LET THOSE GUYS LIKE KALYANI,PUNJ LLOYD, SSSD, TONBO, MAHINDRA ETC ALL TINKER AROUND WITH MARK 0 BASE DESIGN IN THEIR OWN WAYS AND ROLL OUT THEIR OWN DERIVATIVES,

then just induct from this pool and be done with all these jumla.

Another suggestion, let the private players own IP of this design and allow them to sell any allies of India for profits because let's be honest nothing will happen if there is no monetary benefits involved.

to private players, my best suggestion is to of course do what has been done with AR design = start "family" of Mark 0 design in different calibres-different magazine feeding config-different barrel length config-different gas systems-different furnitures like pistol grips buttstock handguards etc-different <insert your design criterias> etc,

in short
let there be a healthy competition this way, only then we shall see actual small arms scenario to be improvising

Another weapon designs that they should be ;giving away; is of course ARDE's 5.56mm Carbine one (based on SG540//SG550 one), any proper Kalashnikov one let's say Trichy line, heck i'd say even INSAS one

 

[Aditya Ballal]

At this stage my best ;suggestion; to PSUs and govt agencies like ARDE - DRDO - AWEIL (successor of OFB) is,
to revive MCIWS//AAR project, FIX SOME APPARENT DESIGN FLAWS ON IT, upscale it to 7.62 NATO...

i mean MCIWS/AAR isn't a perfect design judging from obvious things on it but it was more than enough as a base design for us, taking some good AR designs in mind-i'd say we go a step further and take SIG NGSW-R in mind since believe me many ways SIG NGSW-R and MCIWS are similar-and upscale the design to 7.62 NATO calibre;feeding from SR-25 pattern magazine to maintain commonality that way (alternatively feeding from 1A SLR pattern magazines)

This is doable and we could get a proper, potential replacement rifle of desi origins within 5-6 months maxx,

THEN MOST CRUCIAL STEP,
DESIGNATE THIS DESIGN AS SAY, MARK 0 AND GIVE IT OUT TO PRIVATE PLAYERS, LET THOSE GUYS LIKE KALYANI,PUNJ LLOYD, SSSD, TONBO, MAHINDRA ETC ALL TINKER AROUND WITH MARK 0 BASE DESIGN IN THEIR OWN WAYS AND ROLL OUT THEIR OWN DERIVATIVES,

then just induct from this pool and be done with all these jumla.

Another suggestion, let the private players own IP of this design and allow them to sell any allies of India for profits because let's be honest nothing will happen if there is no monetary benefits involved.

to private players, my best suggestion is to of course do what has been done with AR design = start "family" of Mark 0 design in different calibres-different magazine feeding config-different barrel length config-different gas systems-different furnitures like pistol grips buttstock handguards etc-different <insert your design criterias> etc,

in short
let there be a healthy competition this way, only then we shall see actual small arms scenario to be improvising

Another weapon designs that they should be ;giving away; is of course ARDE's 5.56mm Carbine one (based on SG540//SG550 one), any proper Kalashnikov one let's say Trichy line, heck i'd say even INSAS one

This solution you’ve proposed is almost the exact methodology used for the ATAGS project, ARDE created the base design and specifications and allowed KSSL/BF and TASL to build around it and make modifications.

155 mm x 52 Cal Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

ATGAS is a large calibre Gun system with the capability to program and fire future Long Range Guided Munitions (LRGM) to achieve precision and deep strike. The system is configured with an all- electric drive that will ensure maintenance free and reliable operation over longer periods of time...

www.drdo.gov.in

This is the original basic form they were given and allowed to modify it into what their respective prototypes are today.

Ultimately a winning prototype will be chosen amongst the 2 and orders will be divided between the 2 competing firms.
Same thing can be done for the potential future firearm design too.

 

[SKC]

Then why did china ditch the ak ?

Chinese don't do romance with Russian like we do. Sino-Soviet split happened decades back. They use Russian for their own gain only and then make their own products based on russian products and in many case totally new products.

 

[Love Charger]

Chinese don't do romance with Russian like we do. Sino-Soviet split happened decades back. They use Russian for their own gain only and then make their own products based on russian products and in many case totally new products.

Sino soviet split happened in 64 .
While we were buying paper printing material and tractors and fertilisers from soviets in 1972 .
Worth 5 crore rupees

 

[Hari Sud]

American manufacturer of the Sig rifles is blaming the Indian ammunition. The Indian buyer of the rifle are disagreeing with them. Resulting in this charge and counter charge that the Sig has lost the repeat order.

Americans usually build their hardware with very close tolerances. That results in faults when used in a real war. It is a sports or a racing car quality with very high performance tolerances. This needs highest quality of attention to all details. On the other hand Russian or even the Indian stuff is build like a truck which is durable and operates under well all circumstances. That is the problem we are running into the Sig rifles. It’s performance is guaranteed if American built ammunition is used. Unless Indian Ammunition factories are reworked to the American standards, these problems will persist. ………. Welcome to the foul mouthing of the INSAS rifles. A very organised campaign by various people was run against a 99% well operating INSAS rifle. But now it is going to be dumped. We have to wait for the AK-203 rifle.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

American manufacturer of the Sig rifles is blaming the Indian ammunition. The Indian buyer of the rifle are disagreeing with them. Resulting in this charge and counter charge that the Sig has lost the repeat order.

Americans usually build their hardware with very close tolerances. That results in faults when used in a real war. It is a sports or a racing car quality with very high performance tolerances. This needs highest quality of attention to all details. On the other hand Russian or even the Indian stuff is build like a truck which is durable and operates under well all circumstances. That is the problem we are running into the Sig rifles. It’s performance is guaranteed if American built ammunition is used. Unless Indian Ammunition factories are reworked to the American standards, these problems will persist. ………. Welcome to the foul mouthing of the INSAS rifles. A very organised campaign by various people was run against a 99% well operating INSAS rifle. But now it is going to be dumped. We have to wait for the AK-203 rifle.

Where has Sig blamed OFB Ammo? All this speculation is based on only one article that too one from “The Wire”.

 

[Lonewarrior]

American manufacturer of the Sig rifles is blaming the Indian ammunition. The Indian buyer of the rifle are disagreeing with them. Resulting in this charge and counter charge that the Sig has lost the repeat order.

Americans usually build their hardware with very close tolerances. That results in faults when used in a real war. It is a sports or a racing car quality with very high performance tolerances. This needs highest quality of attention to all details. On the other hand Russian or even the Indian stuff is build like a truck which is durable and operates under well all circumstances. That is the problem we are running into the Sig rifles. It’s performance is guaranteed if American built ammunition is used. Unless Indian Ammunition factories are reworked to the American standards, these problems will persist. ………. Welcome to the foul mouthing of the INSAS rifles. A very organised campaign by various people was run against a 99% well operating INSAS rifle. But now it is going to be dumped. We have to wait for the AK-203 rifle.

Neither tighter tolerances nor faulty ammunition can cause a bullet to spontaneously jam in barrel.

 

[Marliii]

Can this be a hitjob by the wire ? According to me chances are low.if this is false sig can sue " the wire" so would they risk such a thing?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Can this be a hitjob by the wire ? According to me chances are low.if this is false sig can sue " the wire" so would they risk such a thing?

There is a fair chance that army itself can do a sabotage

 

[SGOperative]

99% well operating INSAS rifle

IDK, never saw any Jawan talking the same either from Army or CAPF.
Ajj hi metro pe kisi se pucha tha, He was holding the INSAS 1C but said he preferred the AK47

 

[Hari Sud]

Where has Sig blamed OFB Ammo? All this speculation is based on only one article that too one from “The Wire”.

I believe your point is very truthful. I got carried away by the Wire article. But minor problems are expected. In 66,000 rifles if say 5 times the bullet did not exit and created a barrel bulge then it is not a big issue.

 

[Wisemarko]

Neither tighter tolerances nor faulty ammunition can cause a bullet to spontaneously jam in barrel.

That is not correct. Squib rounds are possible in all firearms. They are most often caused by negligence in the powder loading process (insufficient or no powder load), or a failure of the primer to ignite the powder at all. In the case of no gunpowder in the cartridge, the primer, when struck, produces just enough force to push the bullet into the barrel but no further. Subsequent rounds will pile up in a very strong weapon or destroy a weaker one. While this occurs most often because of handloading by inexperienced reloaders, squib loads are known to occur even in reputable factory brands. Other causes include deformed bullets and attempting to fire a bullet which is slightly too large for the barrel, although both of these scenarios would more likely result in some variety of catastrophic failure instead of a squib.

 

[Flying Dagger]

At this stage my best ;suggestion; to PSUs and govt agencies like ARDE - DRDO - AWEIL (successor of OFB) is,
to revive MCIWS//AAR project, FIX SOME APPARENT DESIGN FLAWS ON IT, upscale it to 7.62 NATO...

i mean MCIWS/AAR isn't a perfect design judging from obvious things on it but it was more than enough as a base design for us, taking some good AR designs in mind-i'd say we go a step further and take SIG NGSW-R in mind since believe me many ways SIG NGSW-R and MCIWS are similar-and upscale the design to 7.62 NATO calibre;feeding from SR-25 pattern magazine to

OFB’s exported 5.56x45mm ammunition is using a Belgian gunpowder, unlike the rest of the ammunition where we use Indian ones or indigenised ones through ToT.View attachment 154388
Obviously the new French tooling will help increase the quality somewhat, but don’t expect too much, I don’t think they’ll use the Belgian powder for Indian orders and were probably asked to do so by the American customer to mitigate some of the known issues with Indian Ammunition.

The reason of high residue in a barrel is a direct link to sub-optimal ammunition being used. Either IA should have made sure that there was no ambiguity in their selection criteria allowing guns sensitive to sub-optimal ammunition to be allowed for contention (by limiting the competition to only piston driven guns) or must have ensured the right kind of ammunition was available.

maintain commonality that way (alternatively feeding from 1A SLR pattern magazines)

This is doable and we could get a proper, potential replacement rifle of desi origins within 5-6 months maxx,

THEN MOST CRUCIAL STEP,
DESIGNATE THIS DESIGN AS SAY, MARK 0 AND GIVE IT OUT TO PRIVATE PLAYERS, LET THOSE GUYS LIKE KALYANI,PUNJ LLOYD, SSSD, TONBO, MAHINDRA ETC ALL TINKER AROUND WITH MARK 0 BASE DESIGN IN THEIR OWN WAYS AND ROLL OUT THEIR OWN DERIVATIVES,

then just induct from this pool and be done with all these jumla.

Another suggestion, let the private players own IP of this design and allow them to sell any allies of India for profits because let's be honest nothing will happen if there is no monetary benefits involved.

to private players, my best suggestion is to of course do what has been done with AR design = start "family" of Mark 0 design in different calibres-different magazine feeding config-different barrel length config-different gas systems-different furnitures like pistol grips buttstock handguards etc-different <insert your design criterias> etc,

in short
let there be a healthy competition this way, only then we shall see actual small arms scenario to be improvising

Another weapon designs that they should be ;giving away; is of course ARDE's 5.56mm Carbine one (based on SG540//SG550 one), any proper Kalashnikov one let's say Trichy line, heck i'd say even INSAS one

Baba if we had simply asked any of these Pvt players to provide 70000 rifles they would have given us a proper AR 15 at much lesser price.. and Ak too. But they won't jump unless assured a time frame and assurance for order.

DI rifles doesn't matter how good they are will face issues in real war time in our different conditions and ammo supply chain which will only become worse in time of need. The whole western world has moved on from it except we thought different.

A GP rifle backed by AK in same calibre is good enough. No need to lookout or invent something radical. Also until we produce good quality polymer stick to import it or use aluminium etc in manufacturing.

 

[Lonewarrior]

That is not correct. Squib rounds are possible in all firearms. They are most often caused by negligence in the powder loading process (insufficient or no powder load), or a failure of the primer to ignite the powder at all. In the case of no gunpowder in the cartridge, the primer, when struck, produces just enough force to push the bullet into the barrel but no further. Subsequent rounds will pile up in a very strong weapon or destroy a weaker one. While this occurs most often because of handloading by inexperienced reloaders, squib loads are known to occur even in reputable factory brands. Other causes include deformed bullets and attempting to fire a bullet which is slightly too large for the barrel, although both of these scenarios would more likely result in some variety of catastrophic failure instead of a squib.

Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

C Frankly I don’t trust CAG reports for such things, they are created by bureaucrats and auditors not independent defence analysts with expert knowledge, IA can misrepresent and obfuscate plenty to hide their systemic issues. M777 barrel burst because of faulty OFB ammo (apparently) and nothing...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[WolfPack86]

RIFLES, AIR DEFENCE GUNS TO BE NOW MADE IN INDIA
The decision of the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to not go ahead with more Sig Sauer rifles adds to the list of weapons and equipment that will now be made in India and not imported.


The Rs 700-crore repeat order for buying 72,400 more rifles was approved in 2020. It is now held back. Now this will be a make-in-India project for Indian private and public sector industries.

Earlier in January, the tender for very short-range air defence (VSHORAD) missiles was held back. This was for the Army and Navy. It was worth over $5.2 billion for 5,175 missiles and 1,276 single and multi-launchers with technology transfer to the defence public sector undertakings (DPSU). This will now be open for Indian companies.

The program to get five regiments of Self-Propelled Air Defence Gun Missile systems worth $3 billion is pending with a negotiation committee.

Also, by the end of this year, the following items will not be imported: Long Range Reconnaissance and Observation System, weapon-locating radar (plain and deserts), upgrade for GRAD (a weapon systems) carrying vehicle, advance infantry floating foot bridge, armour piercing ammunition and the mobile autonomous launcher (BrahMos).

Rifles, Air Defence Guns To Be Now Made In India

The decision of the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to not go ahead with more Sig Sauer rifles adds to the list of weapons and equipment that will...

www.indiandefensenews.in

 

[Aditya Ballal]

India to ink 'repeat order' deal for 73,000 SiG 716 rifles from the US

In February 2019, 72,400 SiG 716 rifles of 7.62 x 51mm calibre were contracted from SIG Sauer Inc, USA, under government's 'Buy (Global) category', through fast track procedure.

theprint.in

Plot Twist