Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[shuvo@y2k10]

Wouldn't you wish for AR type rifles to be developed by Indian companies? After all, their patents are expired and countries around the world are using that design to develop their own rifles.

Hope SSS can get the hint and pick it up. They can capture the domestic police forces and paramilitary market while using them as a test case for Army in the future, since OFB-derivatives will take time to regroup after the recent restructuring.

That would be the one of the best thing to happen to Indian industry.

 

[Sir pe tapla]

Yes sig 716 will keep coming in batches for active frontline troops.

Isn't sig different category of gun? It's stronger calibre and longer range can make it a marksman rifle. So what has Ak purchase got to do with it? It's like asking will we continue to purchase Negev Lmg after purchasing Aks......

 

[Covfefe]

Isn't sig different category of gun? It's stronger calibre and longer range can make it a marksman rifle. So what has Ak purchase got to do with it? It's like asking will we continue to purchase Negev Lmg after purchasing Aks......

But aren't we buying both of them in the same category as frontline troops assault rifles? 72,000+72,000 Sigs- they weren't for marksman roles

 

[Sir pe tapla]

But aren't we buying both of them in the same category as frontline troops assault rifles? 72,000+72,000 Sigs- they weren't for marksman roles

Seems strange, 144,000 seems enough for marksman and Sig 716 was designed to serve marksman role.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Seems strange, 144,000 seems enough for marksman and Sig 716 was designed to serve marksman role.

And who said that? It was always intended to be used as a battle rifle to match the firepower and range of the G3 rifle used by the Pakis on the LoC and range factor in the LAC. Few might be converted to DMR roles based on unit requirements and availability of accessories. Sig 716 with 16 inch barrel was always intended to be used as a Patrol rifle and DMR if required as it’s usually preferable to have a few more inches of barrel length than 16 inches for a true DMR. Remember INSAS barrel itself is 18.3 inches.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Seems strange, 144,000 seems enough for marksman and Sig 716 was designed to serve marksman role.

SIG 716i was never designed for marksmanship.
Though there is no denial in the fact that any Quasi-DI gun chambered in 7.62x51mm can be very accurate; more than any other operating systems. But for that you'll need good quality ammo, a decent optic and proper training.
We are planning to issue 716s with 2.5x INSAS optics, that's our most high-end optics.

There are two reasons for buying this specific gun.
- we were caught off guard in both fronts. On one we were facing G3s and on the other the engagement range was beyond assault rifles. We were extremely desperate to get any battle rifle.
- SIG lowered the price significantly compared to others; though on the cost of removing gas piston. Moreover, SIG is famous for giving kickbacks.

So now we are stuck with 144000 rifles which except guys from Para or Ghatak no one exactly knows how to use to its maximum potential. Neither they can afford.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

We are planning to issue 716s with 2.5x INSAS optics, that's our most high-end optics.

I wouldn’t go to the length of saying they’re planning on issuing that 2.5x scope to everyone considering it has been seen only in one army exhibition and the fact they didn’t even have enough to provide them in substantial numbers with INSAS.
I think OFB (now India Optel Ltd) is trying to lobby for their new 4x scope made by OLF Dehradun.

 

[Sir pe tapla]

SIG 716i was never designed for marksmanship.
Though there is no denial in the fact that any Quasi-DI gun chambered in 7.62x51mm can be very accurate; more than any other operating systems. But for that you'll need good quality ammo, a decent optic and proper training.
We are planning to issue 716s with 2.5x INSAS optics, that's our most high-end optics.

There are two reasons for buying this specific gun.
- we were caught off guard in both fronts. On one we were facing G3s and on the other the engagement range was beyond assault rifles. We were extremely desperate to get any battle rifle.
- SIG lowered the price significantly compared to others; though on the cost of removing gas piston. Moreover, SIG is famous for giving kickbacks.

So now we are stuck with 144000 rifles which except guys from Para or Ghatak no one exactly knows how to use to its maximum potential. Neither they can afford.

If it's not marksman rifle then why does Sig Saur write it as Sig 716 DMR?

 

[Lonewarrior]

If it's not marksman rifle then why does Sig Saur write it as Sig 716 DMR?

SIG 716 DMR is completely different from DIG 716i; which we got.

 

[Sir pe tapla]

SIG 716 DMR is completely different from DIG 716i; which we got.

Oh okay, still learning about it so my apologies.

 

[The Shrike]

Pakies had G3 even before INSAS induction right? If so how is that used as a justification for moving to 7.62x51 now (which is a recent decision)?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Pakies had G3 even before INSAS induction right? If so how is that used as a justification for moving to 7.62x51 now (which is a recent decision)?

So were we; don't forget good ol' FN MAGs.
Despite being same caliber, it was an overmatch for G3.

But then our ROEs were more of sitting in bunkers and plinking Pakis. Only in past few years it has turned bit more offensive.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

I wouldn’t go to the length of saying they’re planning on issuing that 2.5x scope to everyone considering it has been seen only in one army exhibition and the fact they didn’t even have enough to provide them in substantial numbers with INSAS.
I think OFB (now India Optel Ltd) is trying to lobby for their new 4x scope made by OLF Dehradun.
View attachment 123263

Compared to other 4x scope, isn't this scope longer?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Compared to other 4x scope, isn't this scope longer?

- longer
- smaller objective lens

 

[Aditya Ballal]

- longer
- smaller objective lens

Any idea why they’d want a smaller objective lens?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Any idea why they’d want a smaller objective lens?

Maybe they still don't have the technology to make bigger lens effectively.
Or maybe just one of the many ways of lowering cost.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Maybe they still don't have the technology to make bigger lens effectively.

But OLF does make that 8x42mm scope for Vidhwansak, it used to be there on their old website but after OFBs demise it’s no longer visible.
This one looks like a cross between PSO-1, 3x scope of Carl Gustaf and INSAS scope

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

The requirement of 7.62*51 mm was originally envisaged for replacing Insas. The army issued the tender in 2017-18 for 72k for frontline troops only, with an option of repeat order of 72k rifles. The rest of the troops were suppossed to get the OFB R-2 rifle (which was being tested and finetuned in OFB under army supervision). In fact 25% of the requiremnt was to be fullfiled by foreign off the shelf purchase, 25% by OFB R-2 and another tender was to be isssued for domestic manufacturing for the rest 50% (where even OFB could participate). This was clearly stated by Gen Rawat (then COAS) in his press conference.

Then all of a sudden this new hafta deal of 7 lakh AK-203 is announced to placate the Russians. Apparently an empowered team of MOD officialls went on a world tour (on taxpayers expense) and visited different arms factories and declared AK-203 as the winner during visit to Kalashnikov factory (just after firing few rounds in their in-house range). This seems to the most murkiest deal after Admiral Gorshkov.

The problem is where will this AKs go? I hope they don't equip the Infantry with these AKs. No other country is doing that except may be Vietnam and some small countries. I would rather have the R-2 rifle or 7.62*51 mm analogue of the new Sig 550 chap ARDE carbine, to equip the rest of the Infantry.

Other than Rashtriya rifles, Assam Rifles and support troops like artillery and AAC, I don't see any utility for this AKs. But then again, the there is a separated 5.56 carbine tender of 93k +3.6L especially meant for support troops.

The Pakis have G-3 as their main rifle of Infantry, and Type -56 in carbine role.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The requirement of 7.62*51 mm was originally envisaged for replacing Insas. The army issued the tender in 2017-18 for 72k for frontline troops only, with an option of repeat order of 72k rifles. The rest of the troops were suppossed to get the OFB R-2 rifle (which was being tested and finetuned in OFB under army supervision). In fact 25% of the requiremnt was to be fullfiled by foreign off the shelf purchase, 25% by OFB R-2 and another tender was to be isssued for domestic manufacturing for the rest 50% (where even OFB could participate). This was clearly stated by Gen Rawat (then COAS) in his press conference.

Then all of a sudden this new hafta deal of 7 lakh AK-203 is announced to placate the Russians. Apparently an empowered team of MOD officialls went on a world tour (on taxpayers expense) and visited different arms factories and declared AK-203 as the winner during visit to Kalashnikov factory (just after firing few rounds in their in-house range). This seems to the most murkiest deal after Admiral Gorshkov.

The problem is where will this AKs go? I hope they don't equip the Infantry with these AKs. No other country is doing that except may be Vietnam and some small countries. I would rather have the R-2 rifle or 7.62*51 mm analogue of the new Sig 550 chap ARDE carbine, to equip the rest of the Infantry.

Other than Rashtriya rifles, Assam Rifles and support troops like artillery and AAC, I don't see any utility for this AKs. But then again, the there is a separated 5.56 carbine tender of 93k +3.6L especially meant for support troops.

The Pakis have G-3 as their main rifle of Infantry, and Type -56 in carbine role.

Its pointless to equip mechanized infantry with battle rifles.Only mountain infantry should have SIGs where their long range can be used effectively.Mechanized infantry accompanying tanks in IFVs need assault rifles and AK is excellent for that.Even assault detatchments of mountain infantry will need AKs.The AK203 is an excellent rifle,the toned down ak12/15 that the russians are adopting is not very different(original ak-12/15 was much different but failed due to high cost and unreliability in russian army trials).Yes,russian army infantry upgradration program is standardizing on AK. SIG is needed for the mountains.Also we cant afford telescopes on 1 milion SIGs.Without scopes you are wasting the SIG.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Its pointless to equip mechanized infantry with battle rifles.Only mountain infantry should have SIGs where their long range can be used effectively.Mechanized infantry accompanying tanks in IFVs need assault rifles and AK is excellent for that.Even assault detatchments of mountain infantry will need AKs.The AK203 is an excellent rifle,the toned down ak12/15 that the russians are adopting is not very different(original ak-12/15 was much different but failed due to high cost and unreliability in russian army trials).Yes,russian army infantry upgradration program is standardizing on AK. SIG is needed for the mountains.Also we cant afford telescopes on 1 milion SIGs.Without scopes you are wasting the SIG.

Mechansized Infantry is separate from IA's 380 batallions of Infantry + 65 (RR+AR) batallions.
They do require small sized guns which can fit inside their BMPs. But if they will get AK-203s then why is 93k +360k 5.56 mm carbine being procured separately?