Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

rkhanna

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Rest assured our CI/CT units have no more intention of taking Kashmiri/Pakjabi militants alive than Americans have of taking Taliban or Iraqi insurgency, unless they come out with arms up by themselves.

The reasons why CI/CT troops much preferred the AK over INSAS are varied, and not limited to just the calibre:

I've said this in the forum before, the principle reason being that we never managed to develop an M4A1 analogue from the INSAS family. The INSAS we use today is an M16A2 analogue.

> No full-auto capability for suppression
> Excessive barrel length and overall length, both of which are battle rifle-category
> Excessive weight (approx 1kg heavier than AK, both while loaded & empty) despite smaller calibre
> Little to no upgradability
> Fewer rounds in magazine (20 rds in rifle mag)

These are all just problems inherent to the design which make it woefully unsuitable for CQC operations of the type CI/CT engages in. On top of these you have the poor workmanship and QA/QC standards of Ordnance Factories leading to unreliable operation and lack of faith in the weapon when your life or death depend on it, made somewhat better in latter variants, but still far from perfect.

Plus, with the enemy toting AKs in close quarters, having the ability to open fire sectors through cover that we cannot return fire through owing to smaller calibre is another disadvantage, but I wouldn't say this is the root cause of the CI/CT's contempt for INSAS, rather, the last nail in the coffin.

AK on the other hand managed to tick all these boxes.

In other words, what OFB is doing now in a bid to take away the IA's carbine deal from Pvt companies (pic below), is something we should have done back in early or mid-2000s itself:

View attachment 39589

On top of that don't forget that the INSAS Ammo is has its own issues. The propellant requires a longer burn time requiring a longer barrel for max effectiveness. the INSAS AR barrel was too short and but the Ammo worked fine with the LMG.

For the TAVOR we are manufacfuring Israeli AMMO under TOT. Same Ammo used also for the M4s.
 

Gessler

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On top of that don't forget that the INSAS Ammo is has its own issues. The propellant requires a longer burn time requiring a longer barrel for max effectiveness. the INSAS AR barrel was too short and but the Ammo worked fine with the LMG.

For the TAVOR we are manufacfuring Israeli AMMO under TOT. Same Ammo used also for the M4s.
Makes one wonder how well even the OFB-made 7.62N rounds will work with SIGs.

The only platforms using 7.62N in modern IA infantry at this point are the MAGs and MAG clones. Being MMGs with long stroke pistons and 20+ inch barrels I'd reckon they're very tolerant but it's likely the OFB-made 7.62N might run into issues with SIG...maybe overgassing. Hope they tested that bit thoroughly in trials...and not testing with foreign-bought ammo which we won't issue once actually in service.
 

ezsasa

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There is an RFP out for ammo if I am not wrong
Not for 556 & 762...................
Correction: incase you are asking if sig deal is coming with its own ammo then yes.
 
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Raj Malhotra

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Sig manufactures 7.62x51 in both AK and AR derived platforms. It's interesting to see we adopted AR platform rather than long stroke, side bolt handle AR platform. Wonder, what are the benefits.?

OFB also has come out with both AK & AR derived 5.56x45 rifles being INSAS CQB Carbine & MCIWS following in footsteps of Sig.

Though MCIWS in 7.62x39 is way more advanced design compared to AK203
 

Gessler

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Not for 556 & 762...................
Correction: incase you are asking if sig deal is coming with its own ammo then yes.
SIG is coming with ammo?

Sig manufactures 7.62x51 in both AK and AR derived platforms.
The only 7.62N platform from SIG afaik is the 716 which is AR-10 based. What AK-derived (assuming you mean long stroke piston, though that alone doesn't make anything an AK-based design) system are you referring to?

Edit: If you mean the old SG 550 series, then we can't technically call them SIG products anymore, they're sold by Swiss Arms AG based out of Germany, while SIG Sauer is now a completely American-owned enterprise and the 550 series are no longer part of SIG Sauer portfolio.
 

ezsasa

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SIG is coming with ammo?
The RFI prior to going for emergency procurement of 7.62, included 3.36 million rounds of ammo(5.56 + 7.62). Unless SIG is not an OEM for 7.62 ammo, they would probably come with the deal.
 

AUSTERLITZ

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People are forgetting there is a difference in quality between russian kalashnikovs and other AKs.Russian metallurgy is superior.AK103 won the pakistani assault rifle competition beating FN scar(price),CZ-806,zastava and berretta.It was the most reliable by far in all conditions and very accurate in non scope ranges.(CI)
AK203 is a better 103.
 

ArgonPrime

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I still think Indian army top brass is committing another blunder by ditching 5.56 for 7.62 Nato as the standard issue battle caliber.Just wait till the bad field reports start flooding in from units deployed across every corner of the country.
 

rkhanna

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People are forgetting there is a difference in quality between russian kalashnikovs and other AKs.Russian metallurgy is superior.AK103 won the pakistani assault rifle competition beating FN scar(price),CZ-806,zastava and berretta.It was the most reliable by far in all conditions and very accurate in non scope ranges.(CI)
AK203 is a better 103.
Russian made AKs are better than the Galil Ace in accuracy / reliability / weight ?

Or are we just subsidisng the Russian MIC like we have done for the past 50 years . ?

Before the Russian proposal to make the 203 in India did the Indian Army even have this caliber as part of it's long term modernization plan ?
 

WolfPack86

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Sig Sauer rifles to be made available to infantry by year-end: Army chief
The army chief on Friday said a manufacturing unit for AK-203 rifles, an India-Russia joint venture, will start production and first set of rifles are expected to be available by the end of this year.
Army is working to empower its infantry forces and one of the world's best rifles, manufactured by firearm major Sig Sauer, will be made available to them by the end of this year, Army Chief Gen Bipin Rawat said on Friday.

In his closing remarks at the Field Marshal KM Cariappa memorial lecture here, he said a manufacturing unit for AK-203 rifles, an India-Russia joint venture, will start production and first set of rifles are expected to be available by the end of this year.

"To ensure there is no slippage in production, for the first time, the ordnance factory in Amethi is being headed by a serving Major General of the Army, who will be its CEO. We are confident the first set of rifles coming in a dismantled state and assembled here will be available by the end of the year," Gen Rawat said.

"The infantry soldiers are ever-ready to go into battle on short notice, and the Army wants to empower them. And the empowerment happens by giving the soldier the right kind of war-waging material necessary for a soldier to accomplish its mission," Rawat said.

He said the Army is treading on that path to empower them to ensure they are well-equipped and well provided with operational capabilities.

"And, let me assure you, the best rifle available in the world, Sig Sauer from the US will be made available to the infantry by the end of this year," he said.

The DRDO is also moving forward on indigenously developed Man Portable Anti-tank Guided Missiles (MPATGM), the Army chief said.

A hundred soldiers, mainly from the infantry division will be sent to Young Soldiers Training Wing, established at the Officers Training Academy (OTA), Chennai and trained for six months. "We hope a large number of them would then join us as young officers," he said.

Gen Rawat said, as part of a new initiative, information regarding India's borders and boundaries with neighbouring countries would "soon be put in the public domain".

"So, that soldiers and other people get the right perspective and know the history behind these borders. A soldier standing at the frontline should know exactly why he is guarding it," he added.

At the event, the Army chief also released a postal stamp on 'Siachen Warriors'.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...try-by-year-end-army-chief-1613012-2019-10-25


 

learn from failures

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What guns are being used by our snipers? I think currently pakistani snipers have an edge over them. Can someone shade a light on this?
 

samsaptaka

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Blast from the past ....

=====================================================
Dark days of UPA and Vajpayee era !
Are things better now with regards to MOD bureaucracy ?
Especially since Parrikar is no more..
 

Kunal Biswas

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The only gud thing is private players got a bigger pie but many of them are just another BEML ..
 

Hari Sud

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What guns are being used by our snipers? I think currently pakistani snipers have an edge over them. Can someone shade a light on this?
India has acquired special sniper rifles to counter Pakistani recent purchase of Accuracy International sniper rifles. These are:

The new sniper rifles, Beretta's.338 Lapua Magnum Scorpio TG ..
and Barrett's .50-calibre M95 guns, which have an effective kill of 1500 to 1800 meters. Since then Pakistani Snipers have disappeared as their death is certain with Indian superior counter sniping rifles.

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
 

Hari Sud

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Druganov is not being retired. It is DMR (Designated Marksman’s Rifle). It is very reliable for 800 to 1000 meters and is carried in the battlefield to shoot hidden and persistent enemy shooter outside the range of Assault or Battlefield rifles.
 

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