Indian Army MRSAM

[Scarface]

In 2012 Pratt & Whitney Canada (P&WC), a Canadian subsidiary of the US-based company
United Technologies Corporation (UTC), admitted to supplying components procured in the
USA for use in the development of China’s Z-10 combat helicopter, and to violations of US export
controls.

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In the 1990s P&WC had agreed to take part in a joint project with Eurocopter Southern Africa to assist the China Aviation Industry Corporation with its helicopter programme.P&WC’s involvement included the transfer of PT6C-67C turbo shaft engines
containing the electric-engine control system produced by the US-based company Hamilton Sundstrand Cooperation (HSC), another subsidiary of UTC.

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Nothing critical about Heli engines.HAL is making that indigenously

 

[jaci_zenfone2]

Good for the Chinese, yet there's nothing sensitive about the technologies you listed.

I'm sure the Chinese belief that they have avionics or engines or experience in airframe designs as good as the Europeans has" some" truth to it.

But I'm yet to see the Chinese field anything close to Rafale or LECLERC,or for that matter anything not heavily plagiarized.

As far as Vikrant is concerned it was sold to us before falling into the Soviet Block 1957 and Mirages were sold to us in the mid 1980s when the Cold War was nearing is end and yet these don't come close to what we got from the Russians who became our allies due to Defence deals.

Friendship is something bigger than an alliance

In December 2013 the head of the Israeli MOD’s Defense Export Control Agency resigned following reports that an Israeli subsystem sold to a French company had been
supplied to China.

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[jaci_zenfone2]

Good for the Chinese, yet there's nothing sensitive about the technologies you listed.

I'm sure the Chinese belief that they have avionics or engines or experience in airframe designs as good as the Europeans has" some" truth to it.

But I'm yet to see the Chinese field anything close to Rafale or LECLERC,or for that matter anything not heavily plagiarized.

As far as Vikrant is concerned it was sold to us before falling into the Soviet Block 1957 and Mirages were sold to us in the mid 1980s when the Cold War was nearing is end and yet these don't come close to what we got from the Russians who became our allies due to Defence deals.

Friendship is something bigger than an alliance

PLA continues to use 24 Sikorsky-built S-70 transport helicopters, originally
delivered in 1984. According to the Chinese military the helicopters are main-
tained using spare parts that were stockpiled before the US arms embargo. How-ever, in 2005 a South Korean was convicted of trying to obtain engines for S-70 helicopters in order to supply them to the Chinese military.75 Supplies of spare parts for these helicopters are blocked by the US arms embargo on China. Nevertheless, Sikorsky has been able to sell the civilian version of the S-70 to China continuously since 1984 and the civilian version of the S-92 transport helicopter since 2005.In 2013 Sikorsky and the Chinese company Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation signed a co-production deal for the civilian version of the S-76 in China.This kind of deal is likely to have provided Chinese industry with technologies and production methods that can be applied in the production of military systems.In late 2013 the PLA unveiled a new indigenous-built helicopter—the Z20—that appears to share some of the design and technology aspects of the S-70.

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[Scarface]

In December 2013 the head of the Israeli MOD’s Defense Export Control Agency resigned following reports that an Israeli subsystem sold to a French company had been
supplied to China.

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Not a surprise , Israel is notorious for this and yet we do not know what subsystem it was or how "critical" it was.

Also food for thought, limit all your statements to one post,makes it easier to reply to and fill up the thread so fast.

PLA continues to use 24 Sikorsky-built S-70 transport helicopters, originally
delivered in 1984. According to the Chinese military the helicopters are main-
tained using spare parts that were stockpiled before the US arms embargo. How-ever, in 2005 a South Korean was convicted of trying to obtain engines for S-70 helicopters in order to supply them to the Chinese military.75 Supplies of spare parts for these helicopters are blocked by the US arms embargo on China. Nevertheless, Sikorsky has been able to sell the civilian version of the S-70 to China continuously since 1984 and the civilian version of the S-92 transport helicopter since 2005.In 2013 Sikorsky and the Chinese company Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation signed a co-production deal for the civilian version of the S-76 in China.This kind of deal is likely to have provided Chinese industry with technologies and production methods that can be applied in the production of military systems.In late 2013 the PLA unveiled a new indigenous-built helicopter—the Z20—that appears to share some of the design and technology aspects of the S-70.

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Pre-embargo Sikoskys and illegal arms trafficking is different from a deal struck between 2 nations with mutual consent

 

[jaci_zenfone2]

Not a surprise , Israel is notorious for this and yet we do not know what subsystem it was or how "critical" it was.

Also food for thought, limit all your statements to one post,makes it easier to reply to and fill up the thread so fast.



Pre-embargo Sikoskys and illegal arms trafficking is different from a deal struck between 2 nations with mutual consent

They are selling civilian version of s70 and s92 helicopters to china and co-producing civilian version of s76 in china.

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[jaci_zenfone2]

Not a surprise , Israel is notorious for this and yet we do not know what subsystem it was or how "critical" it was.

Also food for thought, limit all your statements to one post,makes it easier to reply to and fill up the thread so fast.



Pre-embargo Sikoskys and illegal arms trafficking is different from a deal struck between 2 nations with mutual consent

French arms industry has transferred optronic systems, radars, propulsion systems and spare parts.Products include maritime surveillance and air-traffic monitoring radar systems (both produced by Thalès) and maritime surveillance software.The French Safran Group, an important actor in the aviation sector, established joint ventures for production of Turbomeca turboshafts in 2006 (JV Beijing Turbomeca Changkong Aero-Engine Control Equipment Co. Ltd) and 2008 (Turbomeca Beijing Helicopter Engines Trading Co.).In 2013 Turbomeca’s engines equipped more than 300 Chinese helicopters, including export versions.Sagem (a subsidiary of the Safran Group) provides avionics
equipment (flight control suites) to Chinese helicopters through exports and licensed production.Through its French subsidiary, MAN Diesel Pielstick has transferred diesel engines for PLAN Jiangkai-2 frigates.Motoren- und Turbinen-Union Friedrichshafen GmbH (MTU) has supplied diesel engines for Chinese naval systems since 1994, including Type 396 engines used in Type-039G (Song) submarines (2001-6) and Type 1163 engines used in Type-052 and Type-051 (Luyang, Luhu and Luhai) destroyers (1994–2005).The majority of these engines were most likely produced under license in China
by Shaanxi Diesel Engine Heavy Industry Co Ltd.
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[Scarface]

French arms industry has transferred optronic systems, radars, propulsion systems and spare parts.Products include maritime surveillance and air-traffic monitoring radar systems (both produced by Thalès) and maritime surveillance software.The French Safran Group, an important actor in the aviation sector, established joint ventures for production of Turbomeca turboshafts in 2006 (JV Beijing Turbomeca Changkong Aero-Engine Control Equipment Co. Ltd) and 2008 (Turbomeca Beijing Helicopter Engines Trading Co.).In 2013 Turbomeca’s engines equipped more than 300 Chinese helicopters, including export versions.Sagem (a subsidiary of the Safran Group) provides avionics
equipment (flight control suites) to Chinese helicopters through exports and licensed production.Through its French subsidiary, MAN Diesel Pielstick has transferred diesel engines for PLAN Jiangkai-2 frigates.Motoren- und Turbinen-Union Friedrichshafen GmbH (MTU) has supplied diesel engines for Chinese naval systems since 1994, including Type 396 engines used in Type-039G (Song) submarines (2001-6) and Type 1163 engines used in Type-052 and Type-051 (Luyang, Luhu and Luhai) destroyers (1994–2005).The majority of these engines were most likely produced under license in China
by Shaanxi Diesel Engine Heavy Industry Co Ltd.
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As I said Turbomeca engines are not critical tech.Even India gets them, LCH is powered by Turbomeca/HAL Shakti engine.

If the Chinese are making European diesel engines indigenously we get to make Scorpenes indigenously,that's an entire submarine not just a submarine engine.

This is what is called critical tech,

At least read the thread and see what prompted this conversation and I'll have to remind you to limit your post numbers. Compile all your statements in one post, this is borderline spamming

 

[jaci_zenfone2]

As I said Turbomeca engines are not critical tech.Even India gets them, LCH is powered by Turbomeca/HAL Shakti engine.

If the Chinese are making European diesel engines indigenously we get to make Scorpenes indigenously,that's an entire submarine not just a submarine engine.

This is what is called critical tech,

At least read the thread and see what prompted this conversation and I'll have to remind you to limit your post numbers. Compile all your statements in one post, this is borderline spamming

we dont have a arms sale ban on us stupid.Critical tech is nothing but i am thinking how they made Z-10,Z-9, e.t.c.

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[Kyubi]

we dont have a arms sale ban on us stupid.Critical tech is nothing but i am thinking how they made Z-10,Z-9, e.t.c.

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the design for Z-10 was provided to the Chinese in a secret contract, also the engine control software was given to them by United Technologies and its two other subsidiaries Pratt and whitney & Hamilton Sundstrand, to which US sued them and eventually they agreed to pay more than 75 million dollars to settle the charges.
- Source from Wikipedia

 

[garg_bharat]

I think we should go by official news items and statements.

Russia will most likely sell s400 systems to india. The biggest issue is technical expertise to run such a complex system which india has.

 

[DarthVader]

what is the need of spending approximately 5 billion $ on 5 batteries of S-400 ?? just 5 are not enough for INDIA . the range of Russian s-400 is 400 km , but range of export version of s-400 is only 250 km ,that means we can not get (48N6) missiles with speed of Mach 6.2 , and range is also medium .

they will not give technology , we can not get get s-400 before 4-5 years as they have to deliver s-400 to both Russian as well as Chinese forces before they can give us .

on the other hand we have Akash Mk-II ,Barak 8 , Pradyumna Ballistic Missile Interceptor ,
Ashwin Ballistic Missile Interceptor etc .

as Russia is not selling S-400 to INDIA what are our other options ??

Cant we make our own Air- deference system comparable to S-500 with the help of Israel , in the next 8-10 years ??

India should go for its own BMD, It can be argued that BMD itself is sorta obsolete...even if a hypothetical BMD can take down all countermeasures employed by modern baliistic missiles (highly unlikely..i'll explain if need be)....Pakistan can always use the borrowed cruse missile with small tactical nukes...indigenous effort is worthwhile as it will support indigenous technology development that can be employed in other related fields....also at the given price point india would be better off to buy some f35's from usa or even some pakfa's from Russia as a stopgap measure before...amca programme matures...0o

 

[Navneet Kundu]

Russia is not selling S-400 to INDIA? What are our other options ?

Are you asking or are you telling?

I've been lurking on this forum for more than two years now and this is the first time I have created an account just to say this. The title of the post made me restless. Is it a statement or an inquiry? Has it been confirmed affirmatively whether Russia has cancelled the deal or not? Just the other day I read in the news that Reliance has signed a deal with Russia for the same and the next day I stumbled across this contradictory thread in the forum, with no citations. Can we please have some decorum of posting whereby statements stated as hard facts are required to have valid news citations whereas queries and speculations are adequately labelled, so as to avoid confusion?

If the intention of the forum is for enthusiasts to have a niche platform to discuss and dissipate accurate information about defense news, in contrast to the misinformed blabbering that our mainstream media indulges in, such posts which dissipate false/ contradictory/ unverified information or speculation proves counterproductive. Anyone listening? Moderators?

 

[DarthVader]

Are you asking or are you telling?

I've been lurking on this forum for more than two years now and this is the first time I have created an account just to say this. The title of the post made me restless. Is it a statement or an inquiry? Has it been confirmed affirmatively whether Russia has cancelled the deal or not? Just the other day I read in the news that Reliance has signed a deal with Russia for the same and the next day I stumbled across this contradictory thread in the forum, with no citations. Can we please have some decorum of posting whereby statements stated as hard facts are required to have valid news citations whereas queries and speculations are adequately labelled, so as to avoid confusion?

If the intention of the forum is for enthusiasts to have a niche platform to discuss and dissipate accurate information about defense news, in contrast to the misinformed blabbering that our mainstream media indulges in, such posts which dissipate false/ contradictory/ unverified information or speculation proves counterproductive. Anyone listening? Moderators?

sirji Russia is no saint...its no hero..who will come riding on a white unicorn and save the maiden in distress from all evil.......Russia only cares about its own interests.....Russian stuff is cheap...but remember you get what you pay for..take su30mki....half of the fleet is rusting away...because engines are shit and everything keeps on coming apart....Russians are desperate for cash...last time I checked...rouble is weaker than Indian rupee...and that's saying something...if Mr. Putin wants a bailout for his bankrupt defence industry he must give india a good deal....it should be Indians who should be arm twisting Russians not the other way round

 

[Navneet Kundu]

it should be Indians who should be arm twisting Russians not the other way round

One can't ascertain who is arm twisting whom unless we know for sure whether the deal has been signed or cancelled. News reports say :

Reliance Defence said on Thursday it had signed a manufacturing and maintenance deal potentially worth $6 billion with Russia's Almaz-Antey, the maker of an air defence system that sources said the Indian military was poised to buy.

But this thread seems to suggest that it has been cancelled. Hence the confusion.

 

[DarthVader]

One can't ascertain who is arm twisting whom unless we know for sure whether the deal has been signed or cancelled. News reports say.

I am very concerned that India is paying about a billion dollar more then Chinese for 5 systems...Chinese got 6 systems for one billion less $$... ..if these reports are true and my memory doesn't betray me.. ..Putin must personally give Modi a long and intricate rimjob.. .for the extra billion he's getting out of Indians lol

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

I am very concerned that India is paying about a billion dollar more then Chinese for 5 systems...Chinese got 6 systems for one billion less $$... ..if these reports are true and my memory doesn't betray me.. ..Putin must personally give Modi a long and intricate rimjob.. .for the extra billion he's getting out of Indians lol

Learn a bit about defence. The configuration offered to the Chinese is not the same.

 

[DarthVader]

Learn a bit about defence. The configuration offered to the Chinese is not the same.

I am sorry sir, I may have spoken out of line. I indeed do not hold deep knowledge about Russian sam's, or any sam's for that matter ...I am just a rocketry enthusiast

 

[garg_bharat]

sirji Russia is no saint...its no hero..who will come riding on a white unicorn and save the maiden in distress from all evil.......Russia only cares about its own interests.....Russian stuff is cheap...but remember you get what you pay for..take su30mki....half of the fleet is rusting away...because engines are shit and everything keeps on coming apart....Russians are desperate for cash...last time I checked...rouble is weaker than Indian rupee...and that's saying something...if Mr. Putin wants a bailout for his bankrupt defence industry he must give india a good deal....it should be Indians who should be arm twisting Russians not the other way round

India goes to Russia always because West twists India's arms so much it hurts. Russian weapons are not as beautiful and shiny as Western arms but work nonetheless when needed.

Weak Ruble has nothing to do with Indian purchases. If anything, that makes the purchase cheaper.

Indians should be more desperate than Russia as gap between India and everybody else is negative towards India. Are you serious about defence of India??

 

[DarthVader]

India goes to Russia always because West twists India's arms so much it hurts. Russian weapons are not as beautiful and shiny as Western arms but work nonetheless when needed.

Weak Ruble has nothing to do with Indian purchases. If anything, that makes the purchase cheaper.

Indians should be more desperate than Russia as gap between India and everybody else is negative towards India. Are you serious about defence of India??

if India has spent so much money on its local BMD programme, buying a system that fulfills the same purpose creates redundancies. India's defense never lied in borrowed might of fancy toys from west or Russia, India's first line of defense is its economy....and every rupee spent on these fanciful items takes away from the capital expenditure that will boost economic growth in future.... China never invaded japan even when pre-world war Japanese raped and killed millions of Chinese...the reason being, japans primary might lies in its economy, Chinese still use shitty knockoffs as there primary fighter jets instead of fleets of "shiny" imported jets primarily because local technology and know-how has no substitute....Russians bend over Indians as they please and have there way....using threats to cut spares if there "cutting edge" technology is not bought...and as a rule Russians skip on most of the agreed upon technology transfer.

 

[garg_bharat]

if India has spent so much money on its local BMD programme, buying a system that fulfills the same purpose creates redundancies. India's defense never lied in borrowed might of fancy toys from west or Russia, India's first line of defense is its economy....and every rupee spent on these fanciful items takes away from the capital expenditure that will boost economic growth in future.... China never invaded japan even when pre-world war Japanese raped and killed millions of Chinese...the reason being, japans primary might lies in its economy, Chinese still use shitty knockoffs as there primary fighter jets instead of fleets of "shiny" imported jets primarily because local technology and know-how has no substitute....Russians bend over Indians as they please and have there way....using threats to cut spares if there "cutting edge" technology is not bought...and as a rule Russians skip on most of the agreed upon technology transfer.

You are wrong and spouting lies.

Russians have been most friendly of all military partners. This is a fact.

Economy will not save India from aggression. Rather wealth is a magnet that attracts attackers.