Indian Army Aviation Wing

[Kunal Biswas]

A mere comparison does not yield good outcome, comparing without knowing technical data is again making void statements ..

For example, Dhruv which is a ALH is much lighter and much more efficient yet with high preform-ace compare to KA-226T which comes under ULH category ..

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Their is lot to do with doctrine and training and thinking ..

Same reason we need a LCA when MMRCA or MKI can do all its jobs................Cost efficiency.
One does not send a tanker to refuel your vehicle if it runs dry in the middle of a road. A moped with a simple bottle will do. De-amplify and apply.

 

[The enlightened]

A mere comparison does not yield good outcome, comparing without knowing technical data is again making void statements ..

Great. Please provide such technical information where absent.

Dhruv which is a ALH is much lighter and much more efficient

Unless I missed the bus on this one
Ka 226
Empty Weight: 1.950 kg
ALH
Empty weight: 2,502 kg

 

[blueblood]

Great. Please provide such technical information where absent.

Unless I missed the bus on this one
Ka 226
Empty Weight: 1.950 kg
ALH
Empty weight: 2,502 kg

Ka-226 will cost around $2.5 million each (when including assembly lines). Dhruv costs around $6.8 million each IIRC (without development costs and assembly lines).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Gross weight: 3400 kg (7496 lb) of KA-226T ( With Fuel and Crew )
Gross weight: 2,430 kg (5,731 lb) of Dhruv ( With Fuel and Crew )

Service ceiling: +21000 ft of KA-226T
Service ceiling: +23000FT for Dhruv

Range: 600 km for KA-226T
range: 827 km for Dhruv

Source : Wiki and HAL

Great. Please provide such technical information where absent.

Unless I missed the bus on this one
Ka 226
Empty Weight: 1.950 kg
ALH
Empty weight: 2,502 kg

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Gross weight: 3400 kg (7496 lb) of KA-226T ( With Fuel and Crew )
Gross weight: 2,600 kg (5,731 lb) of Dhruv ( With Fuel and Crew )

Service ceiling: (20300 ft) of KA-226T
Service ceiling: 23000FT for Dhruv

Range: 600 km for KA-226T
range: 827 km for Dhruv

Source : Wiki

then sir ji why r we going for Ka 226 T ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

KA 226T suits BRO operation for its design qualities as a worker, KA-226T is compact and a flying crane ..

then sir ji why r we going for Ka 226 T ?

 

[The enlightened]

Ka-226 will cost around $2.5 million each (when including assembly lines). Dhruv costs around $6.8 million each IIRC (without development costs and assembly lines).

I don't understand the purpose of this post.

Gross weight: 3400 kg (7496 lb) of KA-226T ( With Fuel and Crew )
Gross weight: 2,430 kg (5,731 lb) of Dhruv ( With Fuel and Crew )

You are throwing 'Gross weight' figures without even specifying mission profiles and AO's.........I don't believe we could have found a more void comparison lacking in technical data than this.
BTW Your GW figure is impossible. for the ALH It is lower than even empty weight. And that of Kamov is only 200Kg lighter than that of its MTOW (incl. a payload of 1200kg.) which is less impossible but highly improbable.

Range: 600 km for KA-226T
range: 827 km for Dhruv

This is HAL website.
http://hal-india.com/Product_Details.aspx?Mkey=54&lKey=&CKey=24
This is where Kamov website redirects.
http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/helicopters/military/ka-226t/features.html
Per it Dhruv is 640km and Ka 600km.

Service ceiling: +21000 ft of KA-226T
Service ceiling: +23000FT for Dhruv

This is where the Dhruv can be classified as decisively superior but I fail to see how any of this ^^ makes Dhruv more 'efficient' and how 'doctrines' and 'tactics' figure in this paper-spec comparison and how all of this renders my reply to LOP null and void.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Gross weight figure is base figure of the machine in action, For more answer you can check MK3 specs ..

The ULH procurement for Army and IAF for high altitude operation mainly, KA-226T has nothing to do in it as its meant for BRO operations ..

You are throwing 'Gross weight' figures without even specifying mission profiles and AO's.........I don't believe we could have found a more void comparison lacking in technical data than this.
BTW Your GW figure is impossible. for the ALH It is lower than even empty weight. And that of Kamov is only 200Kg lighter than that of its MTOW (incl. a payload of 1200kg.) which is less impossible but highly improbable.

This is HAL website.
http://hal-india.com/Product_Details.aspx?Mkey=54&lKey=&CKey=24
This is where Kamov website redirects.
http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/helicopters/military/ka-226t/features.html
Per it Dhruv is 640km and Ka 600km.

This is where the Dhruv can be classified as decisively superior but I fail to see how any of this ^^ makes Dhruv more 'efficient' and how 'doctrines' and 'tactics' figure in this paper-spec comparison and how all of this renders my reply to LOP null and void.

 

[blueblood]

I don't understand the purpose of this post.

The purpose of that post was to help @Lions Of Punjab to understand the rationale behind the purchase of Ka-226T. I was a wee bit tipsy last night so quoted you instead of him.

Anyways, Putin offered assembly lines to Modi for ~$500 including the delivery of minimum 200 units to Indian Armed Forces. It was a good deal and Modi took it. HAL LOH/LUH is yet to fly so it is still atleast 5 years from production.

 

[manindra]

As per report of World air forces 2015 of Flightglobal.

We have 73 Dhruv ALH on active services and 151 more on order.

INDIAN ARMY AVIATION : Combat helicopter
Dhruv ALH : 73 Active + 151 Ordered
LCH : 114 Ordered


http://forms.flightglobal.com/WorldAirForces2015

This is a total no. of Indian Army Aviation Corps.

 

[The enlightened]

Gross weight figure is base figure of the machine in action, For more answer you can check MK3 specs ..

Gross weight literally means the weight of the aircraft. It can be anything between Empty to Maximum Taxi Weight. It doesn't tell much without any other 'technical data'. Also kindly don't make points and ask other people to look for references. If you know something than show it.

The ULH procurement for Army and IAF for high altitude operation mainly, KA-226T has nothing to do in it as its meant for BRO operations ..

Right. We are purchasing 200 helicopters for the Indian Army to build roads.
And even though Kamov cleared technical evaluation to replace the rusting Cheetah/Chetak, pilots flying them can keep flying them because

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Mod Edit : No use of abusive words ..

 

[Pulkit]

Anyways, Putin offered assembly lines to Modi for ~$500 including the delivery of minimum 200 units to Indian Armed Forces.
.

Kindly share the source for detailed information if available.
Units are not only meant for IA but will also be available to friendly nations across the globe so that 200 might go even higher reducing the cost per heli .
.

It was a good deal and Modi took it. HAL LOH/LUH is yet to fly so it is still atleast 5 years from production.

5 Years for what LUH ???
Kindly share the source.
I read it to be ready max by 2018 and given the pace of Manohar parrikar it is achieveable any delay beyond that wil result in the failure of the product.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It means total weight of the aircraft or useful load, The sources are from Wiki and HAL poster of MK3 ..

Preciously for Construction and other duties not search and recuse missions, The debate was between these KA-226T vs Dhruv ..

Gross weight literally means the weight of the aircraft. It can be anything between Empty to Maximum Taxi Weight. It doesn't tell much without any other 'technical data'. Also kindly don't make points and ask other people to look for references. If you know something than show it.

Right. We are purchasing 200 helicopters for the Indian Army to build roads.
And even though Kamov cleared technical evaluation to replace the rusting Cheetah/Chetak, pilots flying them can keep flying them because

 

[blueblood]

Kindly share the source for detailed information if available.

After years of delays and false starts, the Indian Defense Ministry has finally approved a major $471 million deal with Russian Helicopters to establish localized production of the Kamov Ka-226T light helicopter

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/busin...-deal-after-putin-charm-offensive/520795.html

Units are not only meant for IA but will also be available to friendly nations across the globe so that 200 might go even higher reducing the cost per heli .

I know that mate, hence the word "minimum" in my post. Russians are expecting no less than 400 and analysts are saying even more.

5 Years for what LUH ???
Kindly share the source.
I read it to be ready max by 2018 and given the pace of Manohar parrikar it is achieveable any delay beyond that wil result in the failure of the product.

Are you telling me that a military aircraft which has not even completed it's prototype stage will complete it's ground trials, make it's first flight, have several gradually improved prototypes, complete its manufacturer's trials, make it to final production model, complete its user trials in various topographies and get certified in less than 5 years?

If yes, then pass me that joint bro. There must be something you know that I don't.

FYI, April 2015

 

[blueblood]

"There will be no compromise on HAL's Dhruv. We need quantity from them too. Army and Air Force need many more helicopters. In fact, the shortage is almost around 500," Parrikar said, adding that around 250 Chetak and Cheetah helicopters used by the Indian military were around 30 years old.

Speaking about the helicopter deal, Parrikar said the Indian government was dealing with Russia directly over the issue and that while 60 choppers would be purchased directly "rest of the 140 will be manufactured here under the Make in India programme".

"As a result, an eco-system for helicopters will be created," Parrikar said.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/bus...system-Parrikar/2015/05/16/article2817989.ece

 

[blueblood]

Defence ministry officials, who did not wish to be quoted, told ET that the RH deal has effectively killed any other light helicopter project for the armed forces, including a process that was initiated earlier this year for an Indian-led JV to manufacture a new range of choppers.

Several companies, including Tata, L&T and Reliance Infra has responded to a request for information.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[Kunal Biswas]

• The first LUH prototype will fly in August, officially kickstarting flight test.
• HAL aims for final operational clearance in 2017, and begin deliveries to the Indian Army and IAF by the end of that year.
• The LUH sports a new jointed foldable rotor system (see photo), designed and built in-house
• to meet the Indian Navy's deck requirements. Significantly, the rotor will be made available on future Dhruv ALH constructions and re-offered to the Indian Navy.
• For a proposed naval version, HAL says it will offer a wheeled version of the LUH.
• The LUH cockpit is almost entirely an Indian glass cockpit, with components and systems sources completely from the Indian private sector, and mission computer software modified from the Dhruv's.

5 Years for what LUH ???Kindly share the source.I read it to be ready max by 2018 and given the pace of Manohar parrikar it is achieveable any delay beyond that wil result in the failure of the product.

FYI, April 2015

 

[blueblood]

• The first LUH prototype will fly in August, officially kickstarting flight test.

We shall see it then. Today its 15 of June, that one and a half month till the end of august. Please see the pic again.

• HAL aims for final operational clearance in 2017, and begin deliveries to the Indian Army and IAF by the end of that year.

HAL aims for tons of things. How is this any different?

• The LUH sports a new jointed foldable rotor system (see photo), designed and built in-house

Good for them.

• to meet the Indian Navy's deck requirements. Significantly, the rotor will be made available on future Dhruv ALH constructions and re-offered to the Indian Navy.

IIRC, navy deemed Dhruv unsuitable for ship based service so what else has changed apart from rotor blades. Remember that there is already a tender out there for NLUH and HAL will cry again like a little girl for missing the bus, again.

• For a proposed naval version, HAL says it will offer a wheeled version of the LUH.

Again, will believe it when I see it.

• The LUH cockpit is almost entirely an Indian glass cockpit, with components and systems sources completely from the Indian private sector, and mission computer software modified from the Dhruv's.

I could be wrong but LUH will probably end up with similar percentage of "ingenious" content that Kamov is promising. If yes then, how does that make it any better?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The following points were noted from officials via a defense blogger and reporter on livefist at event of Aero India this year ..

ALH and LUH shares 90% of technology inputs and hardware, ALH as of now is 80% Indian made and increasing ..

Navy is ordering more Dhruvs as its requirement is change to Search and Rescue from Anti - submarine duties, Dhruv operates from all platform capable of holding Helicopter ..

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we shall see it then. Today its 15 of June, that one and a half month till the end of august. Please see the pic again.HAL aims for tons of things. How is this any different?Good for them.IIRC, navy deemed Dhruv unsuitable for ship based service so what else has changed apart from rotor blades. Remember that there is already a tender out there for NLUH and HAL will cry again like a little girl for missing the bus, again.Again, will believe it when I see it.I could be wrong but LUH will probably end up with similar percentage of "ingenious" content that Kamov is promising. If yes then, how does that make it any better?

 

[blueblood]

The following points were noted from officials via a defense blogger and reporter on livefist at event of Aero India this year ..

ALH and LUH shares 90% of technology inputs and hardware, ALH as of now is 80% Indian made and increasing ..

Navy is ordering more Dhruvs as its requirement is change to Search and Rescue from Anti - submarine duties, Dhruv operates from all platform capable of holding Helicopter ..

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Whatever floats your boat.

Seeing is believing. I will take every word of yours to be gospel if LUH flies in Indian colours in 2017. Till then, I reserve my respect for better organizations like my state's electricity board. :biggrin2: