Indian Army Artillery

Kunal Biswas

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Not direct attack anti-tank, But special ammo..


We have these, will be used if needed..

This pics give me the feeling that M777 is very good at direct support and also act as anti-armor.
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For some parts, But nothing on mass scale used in arty development..

BAE will give some Tot info on making lighter guns, Titanium alloy is a essential component making gun/cannon barrels..

also we have got experience in making carbon fiber and composite.so few questions..can composite material can be used to make artillery guns?
Russian are most experienced in making titanium products, so can't we use their help in making indigenous guns?
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Tracked BMP-2 based 105mm is for BSF..

If indicted, i doubt anything media will publish, will find out in defexpo 2014..
any update on indigenous 105mm SPG (mounted on BMP2)?
 
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WMD

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Dada, I assume FH-77 shells can be used quite comfortably on M777, both being 155mm NATO-Standard-ish, and no problems running around for new shells when M777 comes.

Am I correct?
on the same page, it asks if the MGS is compatible with current types of ammunition used by the IA. This question, to say the very least, is hilarious, since all types of 155mm rounds now being produced by the OFB are fully compliant with the Quadrilateral Ballistics Agreement (originally signed by the US, the US, Italy and Germany and later adhered to by all manufacturers of 155mm howitzers and their ammunition and BMPCs) and the Joint Ballistic Memorandum of Understanding (JBMoU), both of which ensure that one nation could fire other nations' ammunition and BMPCs from its own 155mm howitzers with known ballistics tables.
TRISHUL: Decoding The Indian Army’s Mounted Gun System (MGS) Procurement Saga
 

Neil

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Off topic....::

are we sufficient in terms of fire finding radars...??

what kind of options are available if we go shopping ...??
 

Kunal Biswas

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I believe no, But IA is procuring domestically in huge numbers in cheap which is not possible with imports, But again these are not suitable for extreme mountain regions..



Specs in poster


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IA operate few AN/TPQ-37 for mountain regions, though making a licensed production is needed for this or similar system..



Maximum range: 50 km
Azimuth sector: 1600 mils (90 degrees)
Prime power: 115/200 VAC, 400 Hz, 3-phase, 43 kW
Peak transmitted power: 120 kW, min.

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In IA service..




Off topic....::

are we sufficient in terms of fire finding radars...??

what kind of options are available if we go shopping ...??
 

Kunal Biswas

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Coming now to the RFI, there are some laughable observations that I have noted and which are worth highlighting. Firstly, the RFI's page 4 asks about charge-bags, when it is a known fact-of-life that all yet-to-procured field artillery howitzers of the IA will use only bi-modular propellant charges or BMPC (comprising both high-zone modules and low-zone modules) that the DRDO's HEMRL has already developed for IFG Mk2 105mm light guns, M-46 130mm field guns and all types of 155mm howitzers. Secondly, on the same page, it asks if the MGS is compatible with current types of ammunition used by the IA. This question, to say the very least, is hilarious, since all types of 155mm rounds now being produced by the OFB are fully compliant with the Quadrilateral Ballistics Agreement (originally signed by the US, the US, Italy and Germany and later adhered to by all manufacturers of 155mm howitzers and their ammunition and BMPCs) and the Joint Ballistic Memorandum of Understanding (JBMoU), both of which ensure that one nation could fire other nations' ammunition and BMPCs from its own 155mm howitzers with known ballistics tables. The HEMRL-developed eight-zone charge system, like its global counterparts, uses triple-base propellant and is divided into three separate cartridges, containing zones 1 and 2, 3 to 7 and 8, respectively. The charge system is ballistically balanced, and has a clean combustion.









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It seems Mr Gupta is not entirely wrong, though it put serious question on people who are making RFI for Bi- modular charges when they are already in production..

In this case it can be related to corruption or serious issues within IA..
 

Kunal Biswas

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Blacklist and 8 lost yrs later, CBI to close Denel case

This follows several meetings between top MoD and CBI officials where the progress — or lack of movement — in defence-related cases, including the Denel case, was reviewed and the impact of long-winding probes on defence procurements discussed. There is also an indication that the expected closure of the Denel probe could be a precursor to similar action on other defence procurement and bribery cases which too have dragged on for years owing to lack of evidence.
Blacklist and 8 lost yrs later, CBI to close Denel case - Indian Express

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Some one did not want Bhim comes into play, Now we have probably get Russian MSTA in service in near future..
 

ladder

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Pentagon notifies Congress of 145 Howitzers sale to India
WASHINGTON, AUG 9:
The US Department of Defense has notified the Congress the sale of 145 state-of-the-art 155mm towed Howitzers to India worth about $ 885 million.

The Indian Government has requested a sale of 145 M777 155mm light-weight towed Howitzers with laser inertial artillery pointing systems (LINAPS), warranty, spare and repair parts, maintenance, and training equipment, the Department of Defense said in a notification.

The estimated cost is $ 885 million, it said.

"This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to strengthen the US-India strategic relationship and to improve the security of an important partner which continues to be a for political stability, peace, and economic progress in South Asia," the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) said in a statement this week.

The Congress was notified on August 2.

India intends to use the Howitzers to modernise its armed forces and enhance its ability to operate in hazardous conditions, DSCA said, adding that India will have no difficulty absorbing these weapons into its armed forces.

"The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region," it said.

DSCA said implementation of this proposed sale will require annual trips to India involving up to eight US Government and contractor representatives for technical reviews/support, training, and in-country trials for a period of approximately two years.

There will be no adverse impact on US defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale, it said.

The M777 155mm Light-Weight Towed Howitzers made its debut in the war in Afghanistan.

In addition to the United States Army, it is also used by the Australian and Canadian armies.

Saudi Arabia has also ordered for M777 Howitzers.

(This article was published on August 9, 2013)
Pentagon notifies Congress of 145 Howitzers sale to India | Business Line
 

cloud

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Earlier the deal was supposed to be around 660 Million, before that 500 millions $, now they have jacked up the prices to almost 1B $.. Who knows their servicing will also be costly in future, plus the ammunition etc.. It would get a lot costlier then Desi ones. May be we need to think again? With that much money we can probably upgrade our existing guns. or buy techs for different ammunition etc.
 
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Neil

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Defence ministry delays raise light artillery cost by thousands of crores


In August, the Pentagon re-notified the US Congress of sale of howitzers to India for up to $885 million. A 2010 notification had stated a maximum cost of $647 million


.A delay of over 3 years by the ministry of defence (MoD) in ordering urgently needed artillery guns for mountain division has raised the cost by as much as 90%.

New Delhi's order for 145 pieces of the BAE Systems M777 ultra light howitzers (ULHs), which would have cost less than Rs 2,960 crore in Jan 2010, could now cost up to Rs 5,610 crore.

On Aug 7, the US Department of Defense (Pentagon) re-notified the US Congress of the sale to India of 145 BAE Systems M777 towed 155 mm/39-calibre ultra light howitzers (ULHs) for up to $885 million. This has superseded the earlier notification of Jan 26, 2010, which had stated a maximum cost of US $647 million.

This price increase of 38% comes alongside the appreciation of the dollar by almost 45%, from Rs 45.86 on Jan 26, 2010 to Rs 63.53 today. This double whammy has raised the cost by up to Rs 2,650 crore

However, senior Pentagon sources point out that the price of $885 million mentioned in the re-notification of Aug 7 is the "upper limit of the price envelope", and that a deal finalized quickly might not cost substantially more than the previously notified $647 million.

"But some escalation is inevitable, given that the earlier notification dated back more than three years. Besides, BAE Systems has already incurred costs in keeping its assembly line open," says the Pentagon official.

New Delhi is directly negotiating the purchase of 145 M777 ULHs with the Pentagon under what the US calls the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme. In this, India buys the gun directly from the Pentagon, which negotiates terms with the supplier (in this case BAE Systems), charging a small%age for its services.

Most major components of the M777 ULH are made in the United Kingdom. However, since the US Army and Marine Corps are major users of the gun (the British Army itself does not use the M777), it is assembled at a BAE Systems plant in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, USA.

Discussions continue between the MoD and BAE Systems but the purchase has not been finalised. There are reports of an effort to finalise a contract in time for Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to the US next month.

Production on the BAE Systems production line in Hattiesburg is winding down and would be closed in the absence of new orders. If New Delhi places an order for the M777 after the line closes down, that could result in a major cost escalation, since re-starting a shut down line and re-certifying suppliers of sub-systems would involve a substantial cost.

Business Standard understands that the previous commercial price bid from the Pentagon expired on July 31. The Pentagon is now likely to submit an "intermediate price offer" along with an expiry date.

The procurement of the M777 has been delayed partly due to controversy over the blacklisting of its competitor, the Pegasus howitzer offered by Singapore Technologies Kinetic (STK).

Consequently, the M777 is a single-vendor purchase, which has made the MoD extremely cautious even though the army urgently wants the gun for the mountain divisions and strike corps that it is raising for the Sino-Indian border in the northeast.

If the M777 proves its worth, the initial order of 145 guns could be substantially increased in the form of "follow-on orders". The Indian Army needs light 155 millimetre guns for seven corps that are deployed in mountain terrain. Unlike conventional artillery, ULHs can be lifted by helicopter to deployment areas high in the mountains.

India's 220 artillery regiments (most of them fielding 18 guns each) have been making do with guns procured in the 1970s and 1980s. With overseas purchases repeatedly cancelled, and the ghost of the Bofors scandal lurking over the procurement of artillery guns, the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is building 140 guns.

Alongside that, the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) is partnering the private sector in developing and manufacturing modern 155 millimetre/52 calibre artillery guns.


Defence ministry delays raise light artillery cost by thousands of crores | Business Standard
 

Neil

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Why US-made howitzers will cost India 90% more


In August, the Pentagon re-notified the United States Congress of sale of howitzers to India for up to $885 million. A 2010 notification had stated a maximum cost of $647 million

A delay of over three years by the Ministry of Defence in ordering urgently needed artillery guns for mountain divisions has raised the cost by as much as 90 per cent. New Delhi's order for 145 pieces of the BAE Systems M777 ultra-light howitzers (ULHs), which would have cost less than Rs 2,960 crore in January 2010, could now cost up to Rs 5,610 crore.

On August 7, the US department of defense (Pentagon) re-notified the US Congress of the sale to India of 145 BAE Systems M777 towed 155 mm/39-calibre ultra-light howitzers (ULHs) for up to $885 million (Rs 5,664 crore). This has superseded the earlier notification of January 26, 2010, which had stated a maximum cost of US $647 million (Rs 4,141 crore).

This price increase of 38 per cent comes alongside the appreciation of the dollar by almost 45 per cent, from Rs 45.86 on January 26, 2010, to Rs 63.23 on Tuesday. This double whammy has raised the cost by up to Rs 2,650 crore

However, senior Pentagon sources point out that the price of $885 million mentioned in the re-notification of August 7 is the "upper limit of the price envelope", and a deal finalised quickly might not cost substantially more than the previously notified $647 million.

"But some escalation is inevitable, given that the earlier notification dated back more than three years. Besides, BAE Systems has already incurred costs in keeping its assembly line open," says the Pentagon official.

New Delhi is directly negotiating the purchase of 145 M777 ULHs with the Pentagon under what the US calls the Foreign Military Sales programme. In this, India buys the gun directly from the Pentagon, which negotiates terms with the supplier (in this case BAE Systems), charging a small percentage for its services.

Most major components of the M777 ULH are made in the United Kingdom. However, since the US army and Marine Corps are major users of the gun (the British army itself does not use the M777), it is assembled at a BAE Systems plant in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, USA.

Discussions continue between the MoD and BAE Systems but the purchase has not been finalised. There are reports of an effort to finalise a contract in time for Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to the US next month.

Production on the BAE Systems production line in Hattiesburg is winding down and would be closed in the absence of new orders. If New Delhi places an order for the M777 after the line closes down, that could result in a major cost escalation, since re-starting a shut down line and re-certifying suppliers of sub-systems would involve a substantial cost.

Business Standard understands that the previous commercial price bid from the Pentagon expired on July 31. The Pentagon is now likely to submit an "intermediate price offer" along with an expiry date.

T

he procurement of the M777 has been delayed partly due to controversy over the blacklisting of its competitor, the Pegasus howitzer offered by Singapore Technologies Kinetic.

Consequently, the M777 is a single-vendor purchase, which has made the MoD extremely cautious even though the army urgently wants the gun for the mountain divisions and strike corps that it is raising for the Sino-Indian border in the northeast.

If the M777 proves its worth, the initial order of 145 guns could be substantially increased in the form of "follow-on orders". The Indian Army needs light 155 millimetre guns for seven corps that are deployed in mountain terrain. Unlike conventional artillery, ULHs can be lifted by helicopter to deployment areas high in the mountains.

India's 220 artillery regiments (most of these fielding 18 guns each) have been making do with guns procured in the 1970s and 1980s. With overseas purchases repeatedly cancelled, and the ghost of the Bofors scandal lurking over the procurement of artillery guns, the Ordnance Factory Board is building 140 guns.

Alongside that, the Defence R&D Organisation is partnering the private sector in developing and manufacturing modern 155 millimetre/52 calibre artillery guns.


Why US-made howitzers will cost India 90% more | idrw.org
 

Dinesh_Kumar

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@Kunal

> Dada, can you elaborate about 39 caliber and 45 caliber 155mm barrels built at OFB Jabalpur - are they fully localised?

> Auxillary Power Unit for 155mm OFB gun - is it still imported or localised?

> If breech and barrel of 155mm are made in-house, and APU is the stumbling block, what prevents from making towed version of 155mm gun to replace the 130mm?
 
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Kunal Biswas

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HOWITZERS - DRDO -OFB
The DRDO is in talks with major private and public sector firms like Tata, Mahindra, L&T and BEL for developing an indigenous advanced artillery howitzer for the Army.

The premier defence research agency recently held an interaction with the stakeholders to explore the feasibility of involving Indian industries in the development of Advance Towed Artillery Guns System (ATAGS), DRDO officials said.

"Objective of the interaction was to explore and encourage participation of Indian industries in the ATAGS project and generate a base for its design, development, manufacturing and integration," one of the officials said.

DRDO is currently developing the 155 mm, 52 calibre ATAGS at the Pune-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE).Some of the major private and public sector firms which participated in the interaction were Tata Power, L&T, Bharat Forge, Mahindra Defence System, BHEL and BEL, the officials said.

Improved firepower at longer ranges, higher accuracy and enhanced survivability are some of the primary requirements for this gun system, they said.
"Efforts are being made to develop new technologies for weapon platforms, automation and control systems, recoil management, materials to achieve improved weapon performance," another official said.

After the Bofors gun controversy in 1986, no new gun has been procured by the army for its artillery units.The army is also hoping to induct the Bofors guns manufactured indigenously by the Ordnance Factory Board at its facilities in Jabalpur.
Source : save ordnance factories: HOWITZERS - DRDO -OFB
 

Kunal Biswas

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Ordnance Factory Medak (OFM)

After producing 105 mm calibre guns, the Ordnance Factory Medak (OFM) has now come up with 155 mm calibre guns. They would be offered for extensive user trial from March, said Sudhir Kumar Beri, Chairman, Ordnance Factory Board.

Two tests conducted

They are like advanced versions of the existing Bofors guns. They are developed using 65 per cent indigenous components and 35 per cent imported ones.Already, two tests were conducted successfully, he said.

In the coming days, the imported components percentage used in these guns would be brought down to 15 per cent, he said while addressing the media persons on the sidelines of 42nd All India Ordnance and Ordnance Equipment Factories annual athletic meet.

The Ordnance Factory Board was committed to expand the production capacity of OFM with a budget of Rs. 600 crore. The OFM's present production capacity of 100 to 125 original equipments would now be enhanced to 200 original equipments,
Source : save ordnance factories: January 2013
 

shafiq alam

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@Kunal is the K9 on an Arjun chassis and is it a resent development or the old 1 before the company got blacklisted
 
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