Indian Army Artillery

Aniruddha Mulay

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
1,819
Likes
9,724
Country flag
What’s behind a massive order for Made-in-India howitzers
The defence ministry has begun moving files to place a repeat order of 200 more 155mm tracked self-propelled howitzers worth over Rs 10,000 crore.

This significant order, to be placed with Larsen & Toubro (L&T) sometime this year, is the largest order placed with an Indian private sector defence firm and is a potential booster dose for the government’s plan to modernise the military, create an industrial defence base and reduce defence imports.

A self-propelled gun is a tank chassis fitted with a howitzer designed to provide firepower to mobile columns. A K9 Vajra weighs 50 tonnes and can fire shells out to over 50 kilometres. L&T had delivered 100 K-9 Vajras for Rs 4,500 crore in partnership with South Korean defence firm Hanwha Defense. The contract was signed in May 2017 and the 100th gun delivered to the army on February 2021. It remains the largest Make in India programmes signed and completed on this government’s watch.

It is also the fastest way for the army to acquire modern artillery systems.

A new order, which could be placed by this year, will see the guns start to roll out of Hazira by 2023 with all deliveries completed before 2028. A large number of these guns will be specially modified with uprated engines to operate in the high altitude cold deserts of Ladakh and Sikkim.

It is not a stretch to believe this massive order could be one of the highlights of Defexpo 2022, the defence ministry’s biennial land and naval systems exhibition. The 12th instalment of Defexpo is to be held in Gandhinagar, Gujarat, between March 10 and 13. It also coincides with the government’s drive to make Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s home state a defence industrial hub.

Until last year, the army had planned to order only one more K9 regiment. How then did this become a humongous 10 regiments? One reason, clearly, was China’s military deployment, which began in eastern Ladakh in May 2020.

The army’s five existing regiments of Vajras (each regiment has 18 guns, not counting the two in reserve) were acquired not for the mountains, but to operate with the Indian army’s three strike corps ranged across the plains of the Punjab and the semi-deserts of Rajasthan. The People’s Liberation Army deployment and the subsequent activation of the entire northern and eastern borders saw the army scramble to acquire modern artillery. Late last year, three K9s were moved up into eastern Ladakh on a trial basis. A senior artillery officer in the Udhampur-based Northern command was a key mover behind this unusual deployment. The guns drove up from Leh to the forward areas of eastern Ladakh on their own power (instead of a tank transporter-trailer), demonstrating their ability to operate independently. What seemed to have been forgotten was that these guns had been originally designed to operate in South Korea, a rugged mountainous country with a hostile neighbor and with climatic conditions that could mimic those of eastern Ladakh. The Indian army K9s, however, still needed to be modified with a special low temperature kit in the field with L&T engineers. The range tables and the software that guided these guns was modified, again in the field, by the engineers. The guns are believed to have performed exceedingly well, which strengthened their case for more guns.


“If you don’t have at least 10 more regiments of self-propelled artillery, you will fall short all over the border,” says Lt General P Ravi Shankar, former Director General Artillery.

The army’s own howitzer acquisitions were going nowhere. Its insistence on acquiring 400 ‘Athos’ towed howitzers from Israeli firm Elbit were repeatedly rebuffed by the MoD and the case finally closed late last year. The MoD argued, correctly it would seem, that imports would kill indigenous howitzer capabilities developed over the years by a range of private and public sector developers. Seen from the army’s point of view, the two most promising indigenous artillery systems are yet to deliver. Design defects on the Dhanush, an indigenous version of the FH-77B Bofors, have jeopardised an army order for 114 guns. The DRDO-designed Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), built indigenously by Tata Defense and Bharat Forge, is yet to clear army trials. The army believes it could take these guns at least until 2025 to pass its stringent trials.

The army hence cannibalised its requirement for nine regiments of wheeled howitzers—a 155 mm howitzer mounted on a 6x6 armoured vehicle—to make way for the K9s. The wheeled howitzer programme was one of five different types of howitzers projected after the Kargil War and whose requirement was accepted by the government. Around 3,000 new guns were to be procured in the towed, wheeled and tracked (on a tank chassis, like the K-9) mounted gun systems (on a truck chassis) and ultra-light howitzer categories. Only the mounted gun systems and the wheeled howitzers are to be acquired. The second category now seems to have been scrapped.
I seriously have started doubting the credibility of Sandeep, especially in regards to the Dhanush howitzer.
Here, he is stating that Dhanush suffers from design defects, which basically means the gun will have to be redesigned, a major undertaking and something which Army would have noticed during the initial user trials itself, he is the only one claiming this.
Whereas other articles are stating that the Dhanush howitzer suffers from production rate and quality issues, something which is more in line with the delays caused in supply of the gun to IA by GCF Jabalpur.
 

Johny_Baba

अज्ञानी
Senior Member
Joined
May 21, 2016
Messages
3,814
Likes
19,549
Country flag
I wish Bharat Forge (Kalyani group) would take an initiative to make Bharat-52 based SPH and an M777 equivalent lightweight artillery etc and so, probably a truck-mounted version too,

i mean from getting GHN-45 Tech and Assembly line etc stuff he's effectively gotten one of the best howitzer design to home, GC-45,
This same GC-45 was base for south african Denel G-5 howitzer that we were trying out on Bhim SPH but due to certain political bakchodi etc stuff it never got actualised and we're stuck with importing-assembling K-2 etc from South Korea

also GHN-45 originally was way much better design than the FH-77 Bofors we got here in late 80s, and all these issues with FH-77 design seems to be further inherited by its derivatives here with Dhanush and ATAGS...giving to these reports coming out and so,

so since we have a better design in hand with Bharat-52 ( GC-45 at core ), i wish Baba Kalyani would take an initiative to make SPH, Truck-Mounted versions and Light Artillery etc sort of derivatives from that.
 

SwordOfDarkness

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2021
Messages
2,674
Likes
11,616
Country flag
I don't have any links/sources to prove my claim.

But, according to what I have heard... The FARP(Field Artillery Rationalization Plan) has been revised & the requirement of Towed Artillery has been brought down to 700-800 & the requirement of truck mounted howitzers increased to 1500-1600 & requirement of air-transportable ultra light Artillery increased to 500.

So the possibility of ATAGS getting orders is bleak.(has a chance only if it gets truck mounted)

I know it will hurt many... but logically in future short & swift conflict the role of towed Artillery is questionable... Anything that is stationary or slow is a liability.

Also truck mounted howitzers are of 3 types: manual, Semi-automatic & fully automatic(my own classification based on videos😌)

In the fully automatic ones... no crew has to get down on ground for operations... example: Swedish Archer

Example of semi automatic: French Caesar-2

Out of the 1600 truck mounted howitzers as mentioned above... 400 would be 155/39 & 1200 of 155/52

At last... For those happy with ATHOS cancelation... there is something called ATMOS
Normally, towed arty can be fast as well, just need a truck/tractor to pull it along. But having SPH makes it a much more easier to use and deploy in contested areas, eg in a foreign country, apart from easier logistics. Good move from army's side, the more SPH we can have, the faster we can deploy and redeploy to other sectors.
 

Nationalist Manasvi Papa

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
3,737
Likes
22,503
Country flag

Hari Sud

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
3,775
Likes
8,502
Country flag
Lost Indian Army in Artillery Acquisition

Indian Army is lost in terms of artillery acquisition. …… They have found faults with Dhanush production line; they have sabotaged the ATAGS, not on account of defects or capabilities but on weight issues; MOD has put an end to Israel imports. There is only one production line which will hum in India and that is the South Korean/L &T K9 Vajar line (if order for 200 additional is placed). Hence as the Army’s top brass says that in a two front war scenario, india will fall woefully short at the artillery level. It is a sad situation and it is all Indian Army’s creation.

On the other hand Pakistanis have acquired Chinese truck mounted SH-15 artillery to match Indian K-9 Vajar. Although the Chinese product is no match to the universally acclaimed K-9, yet the additional numbers to be acquired (200) are far less than actually needed. The shortage is to be made up with locally made products. Like it or not that the Israeli product may be lighter but the ATAGS is far superior in its range & quality. Hence one suspect that Israeli lobby is active to turn the order around in its favour with delay tactics. They are hoping that if delay is long enough then MOD will be forced to place the order with Israel.

The newest of lighter gun 105mm gun called ‘go anywhere gun‘ is a superior idea. The heavier guns including Dhanush, ATAGS, Bofor will have tougher time climbing the mountains in the Himalayas. Other than M777 which can be airlifted and with difficulty the K-9 could reach the heights, the lighter, Go Anywhere Gun could with ease reach the Himalayan trouble spots very quickly. But to our utter surprise this gun is being subjected to typical infinite testing to find defects.

In the end I have nothing else but rebuke to the Indian Army honchos who have set their mind on Israeli artillery gun when more capable Indian gun is available and are delaying its introduction. They should also work on quality issues of Dhanush, if there are any. In my opinion for the Indian Army, they should complain less, work harder and shut the imports. Any of the Indian guns mentioned above are superior to made in China junk in SH-15.
 

India Super Power

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Oct 3, 2020
Messages
2,190
Likes
4,386
Country flag
Lost Indian Army in Artillery Acquisition

Indian Army is lost in terms of artillery acquisition. …… They have found faults with Dhanush production line; they have sabotaged the ATAGS, not on account of defects or capabilities but on weight issues; MOD has put an end to Israel imports. There is only one production line which will hum in India and that is the South Korean/L &T K9 Vajar line (if order for 200 additional is placed). Hence as the Army’s top brass says that in a two front war scenario, india will fall woefully short at the artillery level. It is a sad situation and it is all Indian Army’s creation.

On the other hand Pakistanis have acquired Chinese truck mounted SH-15 artillery to match Indian K-9 Vajar. Although the Chinese product is no match to the universally acclaimed K-9, yet the additional numbers to be acquired (200) are far less than actually needed. The shortage is to be made up with locally made products. Like it or not that the Israeli product may be lighter but the ATAGS is far superior in its range & quality. Hence one suspect that Israeli lobby is active to turn the order around in its favour with delay tactics. They are hoping that if delay is long enough then MOD will be forced to place the order with Israel.

The newest of lighter gun 105mm gun called ‘go anywhere gun‘ is a superior idea. The heavier guns including Dhanush, ATAGS, Bofor will have tougher time climbing the mountains in the Himalayas. Other than M777 which can be airlifted and with difficulty the K-9 could reach the heights, the lighter, Go Anywhere Gun could with ease reach the Himalayan trouble spots very quickly. But to our utter surprise this gun is being subjected to typical infinite testing to find defects.

In the end I have nothing else but rebuke to the Indian Army honchos who have set their mind on Israeli artillery gun when more capable Indian gun is available and are delaying its introduction. They should also work on quality issues of Dhanush, if there are any. In my opinion for the Indian Army, they should complain less, work harder and shut the imports. Any of the Indian guns mentioned above are superior to made in China junk in SH-15.
We have completely lost artillery acquisition and nothing is visible until 2025-26
 

Rassil Krishnan

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2019
Messages
2,106
Likes
9,228
Country flag
#Dhanush 👏👏👏

Reliability Firing(2 Second line firing) of Dhanush Gun completed today at Pokhran Field Firing Range Successfully.
2 Guns fired 90 rounds each ( including 35 rounds with Zone 6) flawlessly.
All decks cleared for formal induction.

Pls,pls let this be last trials:playball::playball:

I will be pray to bhagwan for there not to be a Mars and Moon trial.I wonder when atags trial is finished.atags and dhanish also had truck variant right.
 

Dharmic_Crusader

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
435
Likes
3,632
Country flag
#Dhanush 👏👏👏

Reliability Firing(2 Second line firing) of Dhanush Gun completed today at Pokhran Field Firing Range Successfully.
2 Guns fired 90 rounds each ( including 35 rounds with Zone 6) flawlessly.
All decks cleared for formal induction.

Indian Generals be like:

That's great news, I love it. But, Can it fire a Flying Dildo from under the Indian Ocean and land it on the moon? If not... why bother buying this crap.
 

Rassil Krishnan

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2019
Messages
2,106
Likes
9,228
Country flag
are kalyanis trialling the garuda artillery system with the army.i read that they were in the process currently.if they complete i am sure the army would order it.

i think it can win easily and it would be hard for the army to give excuses for it as it quite light and handy to have a mobile artillery system like this with the requirements for easy artilley employement at the height of mountains.

they can crib on price,weight and also it is quite one of a kind and also it fits nicely into the modern requirements that army has proposed recently with a turn to mobile self propelled artillery.this means it is hard for the army to reject it.

 

Trololo

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
701
Likes
2,184
Country flag
are kalyanis trialling the garuda artillery system with the army.i read that they were in the process currently.if they complete i am sure the army would order it.

i think it can win easily and it would be hard for the army to give excuses for it as it quite light and handy to have a mobile artillery system like this with the requirements for easy artilley employement at the height of mountains.

they can crib on price,weight and also it is quite one of a kind and also it fits nicely into the modern requirements that army has proposed recently with a turn to mobile self propelled artillery.this means it is hard for the army to reject it.

Perfect replacement to modernize the BSF's artillery wing as well.
 

WolfPack86

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,507
Likes
16,955
Country flag
Indian Army Finally On Track To Realize Indigenous Firepower As Dhanush Set To Complement M777, K9 Howitzers
Two Dhanush artillery guns, having a strike range of 38 km, fired 90 rounds each “flawlessly” during a test at the Pokhran firing range in Rajasthan on March 8.

According to reports, the test was part of the second line of firing in Zone 6. Second-line of firing means the firing of guns through ammunition replenishment of 45 rounds each continuously, while zone 6 refers to the highest charge, which makes the gun to fire at its maximum range.

The barrel gets very hot in this process and may burst, which is why the successful firing showed that the gun is now ready for active deployment, the report said.

India has increased procurement of indigenous weapons systems as part of ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’ (self-reliant India) initiative, as part of which the country has successfully created an artillery ecosystem capable of designing and producing 155 mm howitzer.

The Ministry of Defense (MOD) has banned the imports of 155 mm guns after December 2021, as part of its indigenization drive. Over the past few years, private sector companies such as Larsen & Toubro (L&T), Tata Advanced Systems, Mahindra Defence and Bharat Forge have set up gun production lines.

Private Sector Joins The Race
L&T has built and delivered 100 155 mm K9 Vajra guns under a transfer of technology (ToT) arrangement with South Korea’s Hanwha Defense, and plans are afloat to place orders for more.

K9 Vajra guns, as reported by EurAsian Times, have been deployed along the Ladakh border in response to the Chinese PLA’s Xinjiang Military Command fielding new artillery systems, including the PCL-181, PCL-161, and PHL-03 MLRS.

Mahindra Defence is building 120 BAE Systems’ M777 light-weight howitzers in India, and three regiments of the gun have been deployed near the India-China border. Bharat Forge has developed towed and truck-mounted guns such as Bharat 52 and MSG 155.

But, of late, India’s artillery modernization program has hit numerous roadblocks. The 155mm/45-calibre Dhanush and 155mm/52-calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) have suffered a series of setbacks.

The successful firing of Dhanush guns on March 8 means that all decks have been cleared for its induction.

“Dhanush clearing the second line of firing is a huge development. This is a very significant step towards our dream of ‘atmanirbharta’ (self-sufficiency),” Lt Gen. P. Ravi Shankar (Retd), former director-general, artillery, told ThePrint.

Meanwhile, the ATAGS, being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) along with private firms Bharat Forge and TATA Power SED, is set to undergo its last round of test-firing that will begin this month.

Dhanush is a towed howitzer with a strike range of 38 km, developed on the basis of the first phase of the ToT deal under the Bofors contract of the late 1980s.

The Indian Army had ordered 114 x Dhanush guns in 2019 with the production beginning in the same year. The induction of Dhanush into the Army commenced in April 2019 but an inquiry by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) found that the ‘Wire Race Roller Bearings’ of the six Dhanush guns supplied to the Army had ‘not’ passed the quality tests at the Guns Carriage Factory (GCF), Jabalpur, and production was halted.

During the trial by the Directorate General of Quality Assurance (DGQA) in mid-November 2020, the recoil system of the gun failed. Between 2019 and 2021, only 12 of the long-range Dhanush guns have been delivered to the Army.

While the ATAGS is a towed 155 mm/52-caliber howitzer that can fire the Extended Range Sub-Bore Boat Tail (ERFB BT) ammunition at a range of 35 km and the ERFB BB (Base Bleed) ammunition at a range of 45 km.

The ATAGS can fire five rounds in a minute as compared to the legendary Bofors FH-77 and the rest of the guns in the world that can fire only three.

The ATAGS project started in 2012 and has been getting delayed due to its failure to meet the parameters set out by the Indian Army. During an evaluation trial in September 2020, the ATAGS suffered an accident of its barrel burst that left four soldiers injured.

Officials say the complete order for 150 modern ATAGS guns is likely to be completed only by 2026, which may still be ambitious. Bharat Forge and TATA Power SED will get orders, with the lowest bidder reportedly getting the largest share — 60 percent or more.

For almost two years now, Indian and Chinese troops have been locked in a border standoff in eastern Ladakh, at an elevation of about 15,000 feet above sea level and amid freezing temperatures.

In that context, India is ramping up its artillery to meet the challenges of ‘maneuver warfare’ or ‘fluid’ warfare’, which involves difficult ground movement by an infantry battalion in a rugged landscape with support of precise firepower capable of destroying enemy bunkers and hideouts that can otherwise disrupt this movement.
 

Flying Dagger

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
3,583
Likes
9,441
Country flag
Lost Indian Army in Artillery Acquisition

Indian Army is lost in terms of artillery acquisition. …… They have found faults with Dhanush production line; they have sabotaged the ATAGS, not on account of defects or capabilities but on weight issues; MOD has put an end to Israel imports. There is only one production line which will hum in India and that is the South Korean/L &T K9 Vajar line (if order for 200 additional is placed). Hence as the Army’s top brass says that in a two front war scenario, india will fall woefully short at the artillery level. It is a sad situation and it is all Indian Army’s creation.

On the other hand Pakistanis have acquired Chinese truck mounted SH-15 artillery to match Indian K-9 Vajar. Although the Chinese product is no match to the universally acclaimed K-9, yet the additional numbers to be acquired (200) are far less than actually needed. The shortage is to be made up with locally made products. Like it or not that the Israeli product may be lighter but the ATAGS is far superior in its range & quality. Hence one suspect that Israeli lobby is active to turn the order around in its favour with delay tactics. They are hoping that if delay is long enough then MOD will be forced to place the order with Israel.

The newest of lighter gun 105mm gun called ‘go anywhere gun‘ is a superior idea. The heavier guns including Dhanush, ATAGS, Bofor will have tougher time climbing the mountains in the Himalayas. Other than M777 which can be airlifted and with difficulty the K-9 could reach the heights, the lighter, Go Anywhere Gun could with ease reach the Himalayan trouble spots very quickly. But to our utter surprise this gun is being subjected to typical infinite testing to find defects.

In the end I have nothing else but rebuke to the Indian Army honchos who have set their mind on Israeli artillery gun when more capable Indian gun is available and are delaying its introduction. They should also work on quality issues of Dhanush, if there are any. In my opinion for the Indian Army, they should complain less, work harder and shut the imports. Any of the Indian guns mentioned above are superior to made in China junk in SH-15.

200 +100 isn't less by any means though I would have preferred an Indian SPH with T-90/T-72 chassis and then we could have gone for some more .

We could have gone for same gun to provide truck mounted and towed artillery simplifying the maintenance production and availability .

Baba Kalyani is the last hope of achieving this feat.

Lighter cheaper artillery which can be dug inside strategic location easily airlifted will be the key.
 

Super falcon

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2021
Messages
870
Likes
806
Country flag
Athos Dhanush and Vajra will be work horse for indian army artillery divisionsspecially light weight Athos

army also uses us M 777 howitzers
 

samsaptaka

तस्मात् उत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिष्चय
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2016
Messages
1,597
Likes
5,818
Country flag
#Dhanush 👏👏👏

Reliability Firing(2 Second line firing) of Dhanush Gun completed today at Pokhran Field Firing Range Successfully.
2 Guns fired 90 rounds each ( including 35 rounds with Zone 6) flawlessly.
All decks cleared for formal induction.

are these last trials or there are more to come ??
Pls,pls let this be last trials:playball::playball:

I will be pray to bhagwan for there not to be a Mars and Moon trial.I wonder when atags trial is finished.atags and dhanish also had truck variant right.
Exactly ! I am still waiting for Martian trials, lunar trials, trials when it's raining in the desert, when it's 40 deg in Himalayas etc....Idiots . If it was Athos by now it would be seeing frontline action
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top