Indian Army Armored Vehicles

[WMD]

@Kunal Biswas

Sir, how many T-72M1 or Combat Improved Ajeya are in the service of IA?

We have been hearing for a long time abt the upgrade of IA T-72 tanks.

968 T72M1 have been upgraded by Heavy Vehicles Factory, while requests for proposal for upgrading approximately 1,000 other T-72's have been sent to various firms in Israel, Russia, Poland and France.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Indian_Army#Combat

Got this from wiki, though there is no citation.

It is unknown about specific number of T-72M1 operating in IA, But what is known that 70% of T-72M1 fleet is upgraded by DRDO..

Details are here : http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2011/tf_june2011.pdf

 

[pmaitra]

Heavily armed chassis, and an unmanned 30mm & ATGM armed turret for BMP-2 upgrade..

I'd like to see a GSh-30-2 dual-barrel autocannon, that is remotely operated.

Not sure if this exists in reality, but interesting:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some thing not Right ..

Those which are updated will be going through re-upgradation as DRDO upgrade does not have Thermal Sights for FCS nor a new Engine..

Got this from wiki, though there is no citation.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its the turret of Russian Coalition Self Propelled 155mm/52cal Artillery..

Not sure if this exists in reality, but interesting:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Military Demos..

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

it's funny that our so called western experts are putting arjun armour protection capabilities much below their nato counterparts without knowing anything about the kanchan armour.one of my friends work in avadhi and he told me that the kanchan's developers are constantly updating its capabilities and doing tests with latest israeli fsapds rounds and russian afpds(imported for t-90),konkurs,kornet,milan,invars,nag missile warheads,even 155mm artilery shell fired from point blank range.also new materials like boron carbide,carbon nanotude,alloys of tungsten,nickel cobalt are tried out on arjun and one thing is for sure that it is very very well protected.indian nuclear scientist have developed depleted uranium but in their wise capacity has decided not to put it on tank armor or ke ammunition for mainly environmental reasons.but as always some guys will always criticise it because it is an indian product.anyways to me areas which arjun need improvement is in the fsapds round which the scientiest are working and new round is in advanced stages of developement and will be fielded with arjun mk2.also the placement of radar and flir camera right in front of the turret is not right and both of which should go above the turret rather than in front of it(as fro the mk2 pics).

 

[methos]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

It's funny how you reply to a topic without apparently having read any posts. All ammunition available to India (120 mm and 125 mm) is far away from being "modern". The Russian 125 mm APFSDS currently used by the Indian army is from 1986 and was already back then not any modern. The Isreali 125 mm APFSDS which was for some time used by the Indian army is from 1996, but isn't close in performance to late Soviet 125 mm APFSDS (like Svinets and Lekalo) or 120 mm NATO APFSDS from the same era.
Then again the 125 mm APFSDS round fired from a T-72 point blank at the Arjun, which was defeated (mentioned in the article on Frontier India) can because of the also mentioned timeframe be only one of the oldest Soviet APFSDS with steel body.

Just saying "Arjun tank is super because I know some guy who told me and you simply can't chek it" will persuade nobody.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Who told you what kind of ammunition israel and russia is providing us.There are people like you in sino defence forum who claim their type 99 mbt is much superior to any tank in the world and their du ammunition having a penetration of 960mm from 2km and so on.just like i take these claim from the chinese with a pinch of salt ,same goes for your comments.Also by the way i live in india and has been following the arjun programme for the last two decades and many of my engineering batchmates work in various drdo,csir labs and hence arjun is a common topic of disscussion in our gate-togethers.But you are some scientific illeterate who thinks just because there are on checks and balances on the internet they can post their stupid comments on the forums like this.you have zero associations with arjun programme or any other drdo programme and you have come here to criticize others without having any knowledge about kanchan armour thinking you are einstein when it comes to indian armour only because you have read 2 lines from the internet from a wikipedia page.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

It's funny how you reply to a topic without apparently having read any posts. All ammunition available to India (120 mm and 125 mm) is far away from being "modern". The Russian 125 mm APFSDS currently used by the Indian army is from 1986 and was already back then not any modern. The Isreali 125 mm APFSDS which was for some time used by the Indian army is from 1996, but isn't close in performance to late Soviet 125 mm APFSDS (like Svinets and Lekalo) or 120 mm NATO APFSDS from the same era.
Then again the 125 mm APFSDS round fired from a T-72 point blank at the Arjun, which was defeated (mentioned in the article on Frontier India) can because of the also mentioned timeframe be only one of the oldest Soviet APFSDS with steel body.

Just saying "Arjun tank is super because I know some guy who told me and you simply can't chek it" will persuade nobody.

It need not persuade anybody. IA knows how good the ARJUN is and it is openly stated in parliamentary reports.

What is equally true is you too don't know how capable ARJUN armor is and simply saying it is inferior repeatedly without any proof.

If the kanchan has worse armor protection compared to t-90's armor ,IA would have gone to town about it.

Indian Army which loves to advertise anything remotely wrong with ARJUN is keeping quiet means the answer is obvious, despite repeated attempts by you to say otherwise.

 

[methos]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Who told you what kind of ammunition israel and russia is providing us.

It is public information. It can be read in various news reports, it can be seen in photos.

There are people like you in sino defence forum who claim their type 99 mbt is much superior to any tank in the world and their du ammunition having a penetration of 960mm from 2km and so on.

You shouldn't make any claims without sources just because other people do so.

But you are some scientific illeterate who thinks just because there are on checks and balances on the internet they can post their stupid comments on the forums like this.

I am scientific illiterate? Have you read any posts from me? Apparently no. Since you seem to be too lazy or too butthurt to do so, why don't you ask some of your fellow countrymen if I am "scientific illiterate". Have you seen that I actually provide source when asked? That I don't say "I know some guy who told me"?

Btw:I also want to point out the irony in this discussion, where you fail at spelling illiterate while claiming I would be it figuratively.

What is equally true is you too don't know how capable ARJUN armor is and simply saying it is inferior repeatedly without any proof.

I am not saying that it is inferior, but that saying that it is as good as current NATO armour is not justified, because all threats it was tested against (and where actually sources proof that) could be defeated by mid-1980s tanks.
Maybe you haven't noticed, but Arjun Mk. 2 will be uparmoured with ERA... why? Definetly not because the Indian tank designers/Indian army wanted it to look cooler. They wanted more armour protection.

If the kanchan has worse armor protection compared to t-90's armor ,IA would have gone to town about it.

The problem with the Indian members of this forum is that everybody tells us a different story about Indian army/equipment. According to several people who post in this forum, the Indian T-90 is also using Kanchan.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

But you are some scientific illeterate who thinks just because there are on checks and balances on the internet they can post their stupid comments on the forums like this.you have zero associations with arjun programme or any other drdo programme and you have come here to criticize others without having any knowledge about kanchan armour thinking you are einstein when it comes to indian armour only because you have read 2 lines from the internet from a wikipedia page.

If you are going to use the word 'illiterate,' you cannot afford to spell it wrong.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

It is public information. It can be read in various news reports, it can be seen in photos.



You shouldn't make any claims without sources just because other people do so.



I am scientific illiterate? Have you read any posts from me? Apparently no. Since you seem to be too lazy or too butthurt to do so, why don't you ask some of your fellow countrymen if I am "scientific illiterate". Have you seen that I actually provide source when asked? That I don't say "I know some guy who told me"?

Btw:I also want to point out the irony in this discussion, where you fail at spelling illiterate while claiming I would be it figuratively.



I am not saying that it is inferior, but that saying that it is as good as current NATO armour is not justified, because all threats it was tested against (and where actually sources proof that) could be defeated by mid-1980s tanks.
Maybe you haven't noticed, but Arjun Mk. 2 will be uparmoured with ERA... why? Definetly not because the Indian tank designers/Indian army wanted it to look cooler. They wanted more armour protection.



The problem with the Indian members of this forum is that everybody tells us a different story about Indian army/equipment. According to several people who post in this forum, the Indian T-90 is also using Kanchan.

that's becase the IA negotiated the deal for t-90 in such a way to make it look cheaper did not involve transfer of tech on composite armor for T-90. SO for the initial indian production batches kanchan armor was used.Then another agreement was entered into to include russian armor as well.

 

[Austin]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Mango or 3BM-42 APFSDS may not the greatest around but it is good enough to deal with IA potential enemies that its likely to face .....Mango give a penetration of 450-500 mm ......even the latest DRDO 125 mm Mk2 round under development in an interview with Saraswat stated that it was trying to achieve 600 mm.

Some one would jump and say that 600 mm is as good at what NATO or Russian had in 90's but IA is not grooming to fight NATO or Russian but PA and Chinese Army.

So latest and greatest NATO rounds are cool but we really do not need it any more than we dont need a B-2 or F-22.

 

[methos]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

600 mm penetration is not enough to deal with the Pakistani T-80UDs with Kontakt-5. If the Chinese ERA or the Pakistani ERA is similar to Kontakt-5, it also won't be enough to penetrate them.

 

[Immanuel]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

All this argument for tanks and armor isn't needed, IAF is inducting the CBU-105SFW now and when war starts, all it takes is a few very low level nap of the earth Jag sorties on tank yards, and with a single bomb they can take out an entire regiments. Moreover, Arjun is accurate, one doesn't need to aim at the body to kill a tank, a devastating hit in the tracks will kill it inevitably.

T-80U and T-90 Trials 20.10.99

Kontakt 5 has its weaknesses and you can be sure these will exploited well during a war.

 

[Damian]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Air forces capability to destroy armor formations is overestimated. USAF in 1991 and 2003 was uncapable to destroy as many tanks of Iraqi army as it claimed, and still big tank battles were present.

As for accuracy, I think you misunderstand, it is immposible to accurately hit a specific spot on tank at range greater than 500m. Did you actually ever saw how a target look in tanks optics at ranges exceeding 500m? It is literally a blob, you just aim at blobs centermass, not at any specific point.

 

[Austin]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

600 mm penetration is not enough to deal with the Pakistani T-80UDs with Kontakt-5. If the Chinese ERA or the Pakistani ERA is similar to Kontakt-5, it also won't be enough to penetrate them.

Frontal Penetration for most tanks today are not possible with most available APFSDS so that really shouldnt matter , An APFSDS Hit can do a lot of thing and severly jolt the crew , you are forgetting tactics too come into play and what you cant beat with superior arms you can try with tactics or a combination of tactics and armament.

IA also have top attack capability Nag that can do 1000+ CE , No tank is safe in the world with such Top Attack Missile and stand off range it offers

Not to mention other missiles like modified Milan , Russian ATGM which are being upgraded , Kornet ,Helli Nag etc. T-90 also carried Reflex missile that provides good stand off capability

So it wont be a tank to tank battle but many other assets of IA will come into play

 

[methos]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

@Austin

This however has nothing to do with the topic we were talking about: the capabilities of the Arjun.

 

[Austin]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

I was responding to your post that says 600 is not enough for Pakistani and China Tanks ..one can also argue what Pakistani or Chinese APFSDS have are not enough to penetrate the Arjun , Bishma or Modified T-72 with ERA but Battle are far more complex and have many supporting elements to aid rather then simple x vs y tank.

 

[militarysta]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Mango or 3BM-42 APFSDS may not the greatest around but it is good enough to deal with IA potential enemies that its likely to face .....Mango give a penetration of 450-500 mm ......even the latest DRDO 125 mm Mk2 round under development in an interview with Saraswat stated that it was trying to achieve 600 mm.

Some one would jump and say that 600 mm is as good at what NATO or Russian had in 90's but IA is not grooming to fight NATO or Russian but PA and Chinese Army.

@Austin and other users.

I posted this here, but mode romove post to the other topic.
I sugesst use just "Ockham's razor" rule. So if Ukriana sold to Pakistan T-80UD whit some armour then it's almoust sure that those armour was tested in Pakistan and it's higly possible that it was copied. I just suggest to not take Pak. engeneers as idiots - that had very good in 1990s armour fro Ukraina and obvious option was just copy it. No mirracle here, just "Ockham's razor".
I have got two factory draw both T-80U composition from late 1980s. I describe it here:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...e-tanks-armour-technology-366.html#post720098
Ib both cases Al Chalid will have circa 600mm RHA vs KE for turret front. + some ERA
Answer yourselfs guys what APFSDS have India and how mucht left to echive (by indian ammo) those value (not even taking ERA).
Of course it's not equal to wrote bullshit about super-duper pak tanks and impotnet indian tnaks. It's newver work in that wey becouse we have tactis -and all is depend on that.
But fact that Al-Chalid front armour is above indian APFSDS penetration level consist some tactisc problem.