Indian Armed Forces Special Operations Division (AF-SOD)

[rkhanna]

Problem is both Israel and Russia produce there own weapons while we do not.

SOF units rarely are restricted to their own MIC. Americans Brits Israelis etc. All get the best money can buy

 

[rkhanna]

A Former US Army Officer Examines the World View of the Indian Military

In a new book, a former U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency officer dissects perceptions and beliefs of Indian armed forces officers – and comes to some stark conclusions.

thediplomat.com

Interesting perspective

 

[Vishalreddy3]

A Former US Army Officer Examines the World View of the Indian Military

In a new book, a former U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency officer dissects perceptions and beliefs of Indian armed forces officers – and comes to some stark conclusions.

thediplomat.com

Interesting perspective

Wow, read the whole thing!! He was spot on, our armed forces is indeed suitable for WW2 era not for modern warfare at all!! Tomorrow if china attack, there would never be a better reply to them, cuz they are already prepared or driven towards modern futuristic approach to their military and strategy.

 

[rkhanna]

Wow, read the whole thing!! He was spot on, our armed forces is indeed suitable for WW2 era not for modern warfare at all!! Tomorrow if china attack, there would never be a better reply to them, cuz they are already prepared or driven towards modern futuristic approach to their military and strategy.

Like I said why are NVGs being installed on BMPs AFTER a mobilization order for potential war. Mind-boggling.

 

[shade]

Wow, read the whole thing!! He was spot on, our armed forces is indeed suitable for WW2 era not for modern warfare at all!! Tomorrow if china attack, there would never be a better reply to them, cuz they are already prepared or driven towards modern futuristic approach to their military and strategy.

Because they have an all-of-state + military approach to their long term military preparedness goals, and most importantly the budget to back it up.

Here budget is paltry and everyone from the brass to politicians don't bother for long term planning because they believe the era of wars between nation-states is over.

In places like Russia and Pakistan( lol ) the Military spending is/was 6% of GDP to keep parity with their adversaries' military budgets, since their economies are weaker they have to spend more % of GDP to be "on par" at least
Here it is 2.1% 2.3% and the likes.

Military is totally not taken seriously by the policy makers here, neither is any long term planning regarding to possible future threats.

Atleast US has Pentagon to deal with National Security/Military related matters.

I think even if budget is boosted here it will all go to phoren procurements, and I am not talking about niche items like gucci gear for SFs, i'm talking about all army and airforce materiel purchases.
Atleast Navy builds the ships here, and most electronics is provided by BEL

 

[Killbot]

Because they have an all-of-state + military approach to their long term military preparedness goals, and most importantly the budget to back it up.

Here budget is paltry and everyone from the brass to politicians don't bother for long term planning because they believe the era of wars between nation-states is over.

In places like Russia and Pakistan( lol ) the Military spending is/was 6% of GDP to keep parity with their adversaries' military budgets, since their economies are weaker they have to spend more % of GDP to be "on par" at least
Here it is 2.1% 2.3% and the likes.

Military is totally not taken seriously by the policy makers here, neither is any long term planning regarding to possible future threats.

Atleast US has Pentagon to deal with National Security/Military related matters.

I think even if budget is boosted here it will all go to phoren procurements, and I am not talking about niche items like gucci gear for SFs, i'm talking about all army and airforce materiel purchases.
Atleast Navy builds the ships here, and most electronics is provided by BEL

1.5%

 

[Vishalreddy3]

1.5%

China's GDP spending on military expenditure!!

 

[shade]

China's GDP spending on military expenditure!!

Whatever China spends comes to 200 billion dollars, and this is only what is publicly revealed considering nearly all their equipment is made in house, which means more costs.
Ours is 70-80 billion, out of which major chunk goes to salaries, pensions, maintainence of equipment.
what 1.5% Killbot specified is what remains I guess for new acquisitions.

For a country with apathetic majority population, Armed forces and CRPF type orgs are all that stands between us and foreign adversaries and violent fifth column elements within.

If i was GoI i'd have boosted these budgets, but then gucci gear doesn't get votes, gibs do.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Wow, read the whole thing!! He was spot on, our armed forces is indeed suitable for WW2 era not for modern warfare at all!! Tomorrow if china attack, there would never be a better reply to them, cuz they are already prepared or driven towards modern futuristic approach to their military and strategy.

Our Army, contrary to popular belief, is not WW2 era (Sterling Carbines notwithstanding). Its not completely modern either. Which is why the elephant in the room whenever we talk about Indian Army is the "modernization of Indian Army". The modern equipment is only sparsely available.

But given the recent changes, I expect to see significant improvement across the board in the next 10 years.

As for the article, read the Indian Army News thread. The American Colonel interviewed in this article is a Pakistani shill who said on record that there is no radicalization in the Pakistani Army but there is under-representation of Muslims in the Student Body at DSSC, Wellington in the Indian Army. Shill is perhaps to kind a word for this Colonel.

 

[shade]

Our Army, contrary to popular belief, is not WW2 era (Sterling Carbines notwithstanding). Its not completely modern either. Which is why the elephant in the room whenever we talk about Indian Army is the "modernization of Indian Army". The modern equipment is only sparsely available.

But given the recent changes, I expect to see significant improvement across the board in the next 10 years.

As for the article, read the Indian Army News thread. The American Colonel interviewed in this article is a Pakistani shill who said on record that there is no radicalization in the Pakistani Army but there is under-representation of Muslims in the Student Body at DSSC, Wellington in the Indian Army. Shill is perhaps to kind a word for this Colonel.

What do these UnDeR RePreSeNtAtion walas mean, they want quota for momins in army?
what is army supposed to do if momins don’t want to join?

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Well command dry Runs (like the A&N Command) are done top down and with each new requirement being bolted on and integrated

Going the other way seems inefficient. But what do I know

Yes thars what people are saying. But the logic of thst eludes me
AFSOD - It's a 'division' i.e a unit. The men have been slapped together to form one organic body. How will testing this be a dry run for a 'Command' ?

A command is about heirachy / budgets / org structure / assets and then combat and non combat arms

How is the SOD going to validate any of that ? How do we know of the 'Commands' c&c holding up vs a Units C&C. They are 2 different things entirely.

This slow, deliberate and careful approach is always undertaken in Indian Army. Same thing is being done with respect to Defence Cyber Agency and Defence Space Agency. Same thing was done in case of Integrated Battle Groups, only now are the IBG being moved into place. Similarly, AFSOD will slowly be raised to a proper Command level (given that future officers or governments don't scuttle the effort).

The Officer heading AFSOD is a very capable man. I am sure he has more knowledge than us about how to proceed with generating a proper Out-of-Area-Contingency-capable Tri-services Special Forces Command. I remember that when he as appointed, even Lt. Gen Katoch was happy. Its equally crucial that officers appointed to his position after this have the same level of elan and credentials. If I had to guess, I would say that a Special Forces Command could only grow out of this effort after 20 years.

Exactly. SOD overlaps with Army SF.
The the questions to be asked
1) Why make all the other SF merge into one unit that will be dominated by the army? This can only eventually lead to an erosion of Marcos and garud core competency. To Say army can do that job js like when Para SF said they can o he Job of NSG after 26/11 or hat paras can do SFs job- Moronic

2) Having an Army dominated sf unit is back to saying why the fuck can't we just carve out army SF out of para? The infrastructure is already there.

Army control over AFSOD was bound to happen. It was an arrangement where Navy got to head the Cyber Agency and Air Force got to head the Space Agency.
Whether this consternation over Army control of AFSOD actually happens or not is solely in the hands of the AFSOD commander, the tri-service Chiefs and the CDS.
But just a question, I understand MARCOS have certain specialized core compitencies where Para SF can't be called, but what is Garud's core competency?

 

[Killbot]

Garud's core competency?

Limited SEAD capability, Airfield seizure and Combat Search And Rescue. Though Army SF can perform CSAR and Airfield seizure, Garuds have more extensive training thanks to being an AF unit.

 

[Killbot]

This slow, deliberate and careful approach is always undertaken in Indian Army. Same thing is being done with respect to Defence Cyber Agency and Defence Space Agency. Same thing was done in case of Integrated Battle Groups, only now are the IBG being moved into place. Similarly, AFSOD will slowly be raised to a proper Command level (given that future officers or governments don't scuttle the effort).

The Officer heading AFSOD is a very capable man. I am sure he has more knowledge than us about how to proceed with generating a proper Out-of-Area-Contingency-capable Tri-services Special Forces Command. I remember that when he as appointed, even Lt. Gen Katoch was happy. Its equally crucial that officers appointed to his position after this have the same level of elan and credentials. If I had to guess, I would say that a Special Forces Command could only grow out of this effort after 20 years.


Army control over AFSOD was bound to happen. It was an arrangement where Navy got to head the Cyber Agency and Air Force got to head the Space Agency.
Whether this consternation over Army control of AFSOD actually happens or not is solely in the hands of the AFSOD commander, the tri-service Chiefs and the CDS.
But just a question, I understand MARCOS have certain specialized core compitencies where Para SF can't be called, but what is Garud's core competency?

The problem lies with how they'll be used, if they'll ever be used imo. They cannot run around doing Ghatak platoon level Direct Action raids. That'll erode their capabilities like what has happened to Para SF. Though that's a combination of many factors (C&C structure, general apathy etc. I could go on.) They need to be used for unconventional warfare i.e. training and supporting militia and local resistance movements in India's strategic interest and assymetric warfare in general...

But the fact that money is being poured into such a unit hints at the fact that the government has woken up to the capabilities of SOFs. Or maybe not..

This is playing out just as General Katoch envisioned it. Down to the name being AFSOD. So I think the structure will be as he has written in the past.. Which means that there might be intelligence and training modules within the unit.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Like I said why are NVGs being installed on BMPs AFTER a mobilization order for potential war. Mind-boggling.

I've been having this for a long time, will our Armed Forces improve, if we have a Pentagon like establishment dedicated to our Armed Forces, only headed by military officials and not any politicians and bureaucrats?? That's the only way I guess we can improve!! Also Defense Acquisition Council should be headed by military personnel.

 

[Killbot]

I've been having this for a long time, will our Armed Forces improve, if we have a Pentagon like establishment dedicated to our Armed Forces, only headed by military officials and not any politicians and bureaucrats?? That's the only way I guess we can improve!! Also Defense Acquisition Council should be headed by military personnel.

Pentagon is headed by secretary of defence. They have bureaucracy as well. Only difference between us and them is that they have a budget that is bigger than most countries' GDP.

 

[shade]

I've been having this for a long time, will our Armed Forces improve, if we have a Pentagon like establishment dedicated to our Armed Forces, only headed by military officials and not any politicians and bureaucrats?? That's the only way I guess we can improve!! Also Defense Acquisition Council should be headed by military personnel.

IMPORT HI IMPORT HOGA

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Limited SEAD capability, Airfield seizure and Combat Search And Rescue. Though Army SF can perform CSAR and Airfield seizure, Garuds have more extensive training thanks to being an AF unit.

I know of these purported specializations, but these are more taskings than specializations in the Indian context. I don't know what specific special skill and equipment set is specific to either one of SEAD or Airfield seizure.
And if there is nothing specific about these missions, then I fail to understand what Garuds are taught about such missions that Para SF aren't. What is the "extensive training" that warranted the creation of Garuds? I think Garuds were created simply to cater to administrative inflexibility in the Indian Armed Forces where IAF had to raise its own special force to cater to essentially the same tasks that Para SF can perform. And this was done simply due to the fact that IAF could not requisition Para SF from the Army for tasks that an Air Marshall deemed worthy. In other words, this is a consequence of a turf war, nothing more. Hopefully, AFSOD will ensure that Garuds grow out of this to become a truly specialized force with a specialized skill and equipment set that is born out of their own critical thinking.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Wow, read the whole thing!! He was spot on, our armed forces is indeed suitable for WW2 era not for modern warfare at all!! Tomorrow if china attack, there would never be a better reply to them, cuz they are already prepared or driven towards modern futuristic approach to their military and strategy.

The approach meaning strategy is comparable to WW2 is what he’s saying.
What he doesn’t realize is that net centric warfare and air support based warfare is only Just beginning to enter the armed forces. As more apaches get inducted along with armed drones, combined operations become more realistic than theoretical.

Tomorrow if China does attack, there are credible replies that can be given. Lol..China is not ‘prepared or driven towards modern futuristic approach to their military and strategy’. They’re trying to do that but it’s not easy. If the Chinese were so tactfully superior, they would have finished the job by now at Ladakh.

 

[FalconZero]

Wow, read the whole thing!! He was spot on, our armed forces is indeed suitable for WW2 era not for modern warfare at all!! Tomorrow if china attack, there would never be a better reply to them, cuz they are already prepared or driven towards modern futuristic approach to their military and strategy.

I can't say enough on the other topics but, his statement :

. This fosters the attitude among both military and police units that Pakistan, not poor governance, is the proximate cause of the situation, and that local Kashmiri militants are not disaffected or misguided citizens but traitors to their country who deserve harsh treatment.

He totally takes the actions and agenda of Pakistani army out of the kashmir issue, without pakistan's support this whole insurgency won't last, he ignores the history of US forces then spings the typical US narrative against the Indian army.
Yes, kashmir is a political issue along with 'religion' issue aided/aggravated by continuous backing of pakis which can't be solved without admitting this fact, take Pakistanis out of it and you will see jihadis backing down in no time but this shows the inherent bias of USA which rather than admitting the proxy war pelted by Pakistan, is, on the contrary, putting whole blame on India. No wonder Indian army doesn't trust people like these.
I just realised that this comment is off-topic to this, so please don't reply here quote somewhere else or ignore.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

The approach meaning strategy is comparable to WW2 is what he’s saying.
What he doesn’t realize is that net centric warfare and air support based warfare is only Just beginning to enter the armed forces. As more apaches get inducted along with armed drones, combined operations become more realistic than theoretical.

Tomorrow if China does attack, there are credible replies that can be given. Lol..China is not ‘prepared or driven towards modern futuristic approach to their military and strategy’. They’re trying to do that but it’s not easy. If the Chinese were so tactfully superior, they would have finished the job by now at Ladakh.

Chinese have really improved their armed forces numerically and Technological superior in the last 10 years. Their drone systems are top of the line, so much so rivals the USA. No to mention countless numbers of satellites they've launched, missile systems and many other aspect... We are still leagues below them!!
The only reason they never did that job in ladakh is because we had an agreement between them and it would have been an act of war, by ignoring the agreement and the NATO would have intervened to this issue.