Indian Armed Forces Special Operations Division (AF-SOD)

[Vishalreddy3]

This thread is dedicated to AF-SOD
*Photos, Links, Videos, etc and other information about the subject can be posted here!!!
*Discussions comparing USSOCOM and AF-SOD can also be posted here!

 

[rkhanna]

My 2 cents. SOD is a unit not a command.

US SOCOM has Army SOC, AF SOC, Marine corp SOC and Navy Department of Special warfare answering to it. ( SOC is special operations command)

So each arm of the military has their own command that roles up into a single SOCOM.

AFSOD is more akin to JSOC. But that's pretty much any and every conversation shojld end on it.

JSOC is a CT 'black' command that answers to the NSA directly. That's why it has a tier 1 status.

AFSOD is a hodgepodge of putting men from different arms together and asking them to figure out how to play nice.

There is no selection for AFSOD. Its tasking is a major overlap with normal army sf.

Lastly took over 3 decades for the Americans to officially acknowledge the existence of JSOC.

We held press conferences and publicized joint ex. That alone negates any tier 1 capability aspirations

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

I beleive our SF re-organization and future use should follow the Israeli model or the Russian model, rather than US SOCOM model. The budget of USSOCOM for FY 2021 is 16.6 billion dollars. Now this figure is just in the public domain and does not include the Black budget.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS21048.pdf

Not only does it include dedicate manpower, but also dedictaed air and ground assests, which are separate from conventional military commands.

Coming back to India, we should compare ourselfs with those countries which have similar defence budget as ours ( 71 billion USD in 2020-21). This includes Russia, France, Germany, UK, Japan South Korea etc. (in decreasing order). Special mention is Israel.

Ranking: military spending by country 2019 | Statista

This statistic ranks the 15 countries with the highest military spending in 2019.

www.statista.com

Among them, our target should be attaining similar capabilities as Russia and Israel. These countries conduct very high profile and successfull special operations missions, despite their limited funding. The other countries which I mentioned operate under the US led NATO umbrella.

 

[rkhanna]

Most countries that have Special Operations Commands are massively scaled down from a US perspective. But overall objectives are similar. Same goes for the Israeli and Russians.

 

[Killbot]

My 2 cents. SOD is a unit not a command.

US SOCOM has Army SOC, AF SOC, Marine corp SOC and Navy Department of Special warfare answering to it. ( SOC is special operations command)

So each arm of the military has their own command that roles up into a single SOCOM.

AFSOD is more akin to JSOC. But that's pretty much any and every conversation shojld end on it.

JSOC is a CT 'black' command that answers to the NSA directly. That's why it has a tier 1 status.

AFSOD is a hodgepodge of putting men from different arms together and asking them to figure out how to play nice.

There is no selection for AFSOD. Its tasking is a major overlap with normal army sf.

Lastly took over 3 decades for the Americans to officially acknowledge the existence of JSOC.

We held press conferences and publicized joint ex. That alone negates any tier 1 capability aspirations

AFSOD isn't meant to be anything like JSOC. I think SOD is something of a test run before a SO Command...

 

[rkhanna]

AFSOD isn't meant to be anything like JSOC. I think SOD is something of a test run before a SO Command...

Yes thars what people are saying. But the logic of thst eludes me
AFSOD - It's a 'division' i.e a unit. The men have been slapped together to form one organic body. How will testing this be a dry run for a 'Command' ?

A command is about heirachy / budgets / org structure / assets and then combat and non combat arms

How is the SOD going to validate any of that ? How do we know of the 'Commands' c&c holding up vs a Units C&C. They are 2 different things entirely.

 

[Killbot]

Yes thars what people are saying. But the logic of thst eludes me
AFSOD - It's a 'division' i.e a unit. The men have been slapped together to form one organic body. How will testing this be a dry run for a 'Command' ?

A command is about heirachy / budgets / org structure / assets and then combat and non combat arms

How is the SOD going to validate any of that ? How do we know of the 'Commands' c&c holding up vs a Units C&C. They are 2 different things entirely.

Maybe it has to do with setting up infrastructure for a command. We don't know about it's structure, yet. So it is possible that SOD consists of some subunits, for support and intelligence and such. Although the hierarchy, budgets and and assets it possesses are still unclear.

You're right about c&c.

 

[rkhanna]

Maybe it has to do with setting up infrastructure for a command. We don't know about it's structure, yet. So it is possible that SOD consists of some subunits, for support and intelligence and such. Although the hierarchy, budgets and and assets it possesses are still unclear.

You're right about c&c.

Well command dry Runs (like the A&N Command) are done top down and with each new requirement being bolted on and integrated

Going the other way seems inefficient. But what do I know

 

[Killbot]

Well command dry Runs (like the A&N Command) are done top down and with each new requirement being bolted on and integrated

True.. But, what is AFSOD's role? Does it coincide with current Army SF? Will it be expanded?

 

[rkhanna]

True.. But, what is AFSOD's role? Does it coincide with current Army SF? Will it be expanded?

Exactly. SOD overlaps with Army SF.

The the questions to be asked
1) Why make all the other SF merge into one unit that will be dominated by the army? This can only eventually lead to an erosion of Marcos and garud core competency. To Say army can do that job js like when Para SF said they can o he Job of NSG after 26/11 or hat paras can do SFs job- Moronic

2) Having an Army dominated sf unit is back to saying why the fuck can't we just carve out army SF out of para? The infrastructure is already there.

 

[rkhanna]

Armed Forces Special Operations Division - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Good summary

 

[Killbot]

Exactly. SOD overlaps with Army SF.

The the questions to be asked
1) Why make all the other SF merge into one unit that will be dominated by the army? This can only eventually lead to an erosion of Marcos and garud core competency. To Say army can do that job js like when Para SF said they can o he Job of NSG after 26/11 or hat paras can do SFs job- Moronic

2) Having an Army dominated sf unit is back to saying why the fuck can't we just carve out army SF out of para? The infrastructure is already there.

Not if Marcos and Garuds have a separate place within the division. That would make it more akin to a command if you add supporting assets...

 

[Killbot]

Armed Forces Special Operations Division - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Good summary

Excerpt:
...The division is expected to be converted into a full sized tri-service command in future...

How?

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Yes thars what people are saying. But the logic of thst eludes me
AFSOD - It's a 'division' i.e a unit. The men have been slapped together to form one organic body. How will testing this be a dry run for a 'Command' ?

A command is about heirachy / budgets / org structure / assets and then combat and non combat arms

How is the SOD going to validate any of that ? How do we know of the 'Commands' c&c holding up vs a Units C&C. They are 2 different things entirely.

Yeah, talking about that, if AF-SOD is compatible to JSOC, then What's the parent organisation for this unit??
Like JSOC is under USSOCOM, what about AF-SOD?? Which organisation does it come under?

 

[rkhanna]

Yeah, talking about that, if AF-SOD is compatible to JSOC, then What's the parent organisation for this unit??
Like JSOC is under USSOCOM, what about AF-SOD?? Which organisation does it come under?

JSOC is a suset of SOCOM but outside the American Regional Command structure. JSOC doesn't anser to SOCOM but the president and joint chiefs. So it's a weird hybrid .

SOD answers to IDS

 

[rkhanna]

Excerpt:
...The division is expected to be converted into a full sized tri-service command in future...

How?

Hopefully we don't know because somebody in this country still values OPSEC

 

[Killbot]

Hopefully we don't know because somebody in this country still values OPSEC

Yeah... They've done a fairly good job so far. Last thing we need is operators faces on national TV (Surgical Strikes)

 

[Rambo101]

I beleive our SF re-organization and future use should follow the Israeli model or the Russian model, rather than US SOCOM model. The budget of USSOCOM for FY 2021 is 16.6 billion dollars. Now this figure is just in the public domain and does not include the Black budget.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS21048.pdf

Not only does it include dedicate manpower, but also dedictaed air and ground assests, which are separate from conventional military commands.

Coming back to India, we should compare ourselfs with those countries which have similar defence budget as ours ( 71 billion USD in 2020-21). This includes Russia, France, Germany, UK, Japan South Korea etc. (in decreasing order). Special mention is Israel.

Ranking: military spending by country 2019 | Statista

This statistic ranks the 15 countries with the highest military spending in 2019.

www.statista.com

Among them, our target should be attaining similar capabilities as Russia and Israel. These countries conduct very high profile and successfull special operations missions, despite their limited funding. The other countries which I mentioned operate under the US led NATO umbrella.

Problem is both Israel and Russia produce there own weapons while we do not.

 

[aditya g]

My 2 cents. SOD is a unit not a command.

US SOCOM has Army SOC, AF SOC, Marine corp SOC and Navy Department of Special warfare answering to it. ( SOC is special operations command)

So each arm of the military has their own command that roles up into a single SOCOM.

AFSOD is more akin to JSOC. But that's pretty much any and every conversation shojld end on it.

JSOC is a CT 'black' command that answers to the NSA directly. That's why it has a tier 1 status.

AFSOD is a hodgepodge of putting men from different arms together and asking them to figure out how to play nice.

There is no selection for AFSOD. Its tasking is a major overlap with normal army sf.

Lastly took over 3 decades for the Americans to officially acknowledge the existence of JSOC.

We held press conferences and publicized joint ex. That alone negates any tier 1 capability aspirations

The best estimation of the AFSOD is by Col Awadhesh Kumar;

http://www.indianpolitics.co.in/from-hq-para-commando-task-force-to-afspd/

Finally AFSOD has been created vindicating the Indian saying “ देर आए दुरुस्त आए “. The new division will work under the tri-services Integrated Defence Staff. Maj. Gen. Dhingra will have the responsibility to set up the structure of the new division. Maj. Gen. Dhingra a Special Forces veteran has seen real combat from close quarters. The government has approved the raising of the Armed Forces Special Operations Division comprising the Special Forces of the Army, Navy and the Air Force.

As recommended in the Minutes of the Inaugural Conference in 1993 that SF also needs to be treated akin to a separate specialized Arms / Service has now been realized. Its training also has to be highly specialized and similarly its tasking.

Certain tasks will be in direct support to the Operational Commands up to Corps level tasks. Here tactical advice and certain logistic support may have to be provided by a centralized set up. Some tasks of strategic nature may be at GHQ level for which there has to be a fully functional and capable higher set up. Thus rose the need of an independent controlling HQ for SF.

In 1993, the actual HQ SF was raised under a Brigadier and it started functioning to first consolidate and then expand to provide both operational and advisory SF support to all the existing Army Commands including Chief and finally the CCS itself. The commander of the expanded Force with out of area capabilities would be first a Major General and then a Lt General.

Nowadays war per force is a tri service matter and against a asymmetrical type of Warfare the country may have to orchestrate its entire resources as one. So just like the need of a Chief of Defence Staff, we also need a tri service Special Operations Command at par with other single service/ tri services Commands.

However, CDS is still pending, though HQ Integrated Defence Staff is in place. In a similar manner it seems the Government has approved a truncated structure with name of Armed Forces Special Operations Division under a two star Officer. Once the Command, Control, training, administrative and logistics structure comes then it may first be upgraded to three star and finally to a full tri service Command under a C-In -C

It's still vague, but if the establishment follows what their original intent it will mean that the SOD is a controlling HQ which can be engaged by higher defence leadership when needed.

For example, planning for 2016 Surgical Strike was with Northern Army Commander and his Corps commanders. They tasked their planning cell to engage the COs of the 2 SF units. In present times they would bring in commander AFSOD who would have not just the Army SF but also Garuds and MARCOS at his disposal. Not only SF but he would also organise C-130s from IAF or other such assets thereby bringing a higher level of SF capability. Units maybe rotated but there will be some C&C, training and admin setup permanently with him.

In summary, in my view AFSOD is about bringing a higher quality to the SF tasking and also higher level capability to said tasks.

 

[India Super Power]

Is it possible that different sf can share their weapons and gears