India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by private sector

[smestarz]

@smestarz, is that even possible in defence industry? Like TATA bought Jaguar and LR.

The defence market is getting smaller and now you will see amalgamation of many companies. For example you already seen how Eurofighter consortium developed. Also many of the American companies like Hughes and Mcdonnel Douglas are now part of big companies like Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

With planes becoming more expensive and more capable, so fewer planes can do jobs of more nos of planes. So in way to give example 3 F/A-18 Hornets can do the same mission that required a squadron of planes during vietnam war. Also not many countries are able to order the numbers that they could as before. The cost of using and maintaining will be high

India should in a way privatise HAL and get out of it, Rather GoI should get into what are public priorities like maybe ensureing that they control important services like Water, electricity, fuel etc, Airlines and building planes is not really a priority. But that being said.in the 5 billion dollars what can we really get from Gripen? Gripen are buying off the shelf tech and building the plane very much like what HAL is doing. So, we really do not need to buy from companies like SAAB or Airbus defence of Dassault in India, But these companies expect that if they Make in India then indian Govt will have to ensure that it purchases the planes, or maybe in a way help the sales of these planes (after all if the planes are produced they have to be sold and after selling then only Make in India works) So we should be clear that India is where you can make, but that does not mean we have to be committed to buy it. We have Tejas FGFA and AMCA projects which are what india will invest in Soon companies might SAAB will actually want a partnership with defence companies in India but in true sense many indian companies like Tata or Mahidra are big enough to buy these firms.

 

[smestarz]

Mirage 2000 & Sepecate Jaguar will definitely retire post 2030. I was talking about the addition of F-15, F-16, Gripen, F-18. Then it will be circus in the name of Aerospace industry.

The last of Mirage 2000 will be upgraded post 2020, so just 10 years? I feel the Mirage 2000 will be protected against PAF by MiG-29. Mirage 2000 cannot be upgraded to a level where it can take care of itself

 

[smestarz]

But Dassault group is more than @Dassault_OnAir. There is also @Dassault3ds, $ 3 billion sales in 2015. Dassault Systems sure has some Indian programmers working with them . More , Rafale team is Dassault + Thales + Safran. A much more powerful combo than Saab.

Dassault is not as big as Boeing, Dassault Aviation net income goes till US$ 400 million but that of Boeing goes into US$ 5 BILLION !! So I guess Dasault might be available in few billion more than SAAB.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

At least by knowing this IAF should back off Rafale, some say IAF inventory is Circus, for me its like Zoo, with such variety of planes.:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:
There is no TOT, no Make in India, very costly, better options available for lower prices, then why the hell Rafale only?

Modi.wants to become.international statesman

 

[Superdefender]

What can be the possible advantage if one of our private corp. buys SAAB? Then why not buy Dassault itself?

 

[BON PLAN]

The last of Mirage 2000 will be upgraded post 2020, so just 10 years? I feel the Mirage 2000 will be protected against PAF by MiG-29. Mirage 2000 cannot be upgraded to a level where it can take care of itself

The Mirage 2000 -5 can sure protect itself. 6 x MICA. I know what you are thinking about MICA range, but Indians top of IAF and politicians one think it's lagely enough. If not, why don't integrate ASTRA1/2 or an Israeli missile with an Israeli radar? It would be a nice test bench for the futur Tejas.

But... they choose the french radar and european missile. Maybe some are not competent or corrupt, but only some of them...

 

[BON PLAN]

Funnily HAL did take the ToT for the outdated Mirage 2000 as part of the deal

It will help HAL to end developpement of Tejas.

 

[garg_bharat]

Tejas will have no impact due to this fighter program. HAL has been asked to ramp up production of Tejas to 16 units per year. However nobody knows HOW LONG that will take. A snail can run faster than HAL.

Recently retired Mig-21 need to be filled in by Tejas. That is a fairly large number.

 

[Hari Sud]

There is another angle to the current rush for "Make in India" the American F-16 and F-18 fighters.

These both planes although will fly till 2035 but the order book for new has dried up. The production line will be closed by 2018. After that there are two type if business is left I.e. Overhaul & upgrade and supply spare parts for hundreds of planes still flying.

I believe Modi is not buying these planes for IAF, he is after spares and service business. This segment of business is labor intensive and high margin business. India has the capability in servicing these aircrafts. Americans wish somebody else do it. That is where India comes in the picture.

Close to 50,000 people could be employed by the spares supply chain in India and anywhere close to 20,000 people could be employed in overhaul and upgrade business.

I believe the proposal is sound and on good financial footings as FDI is part if the deal.

 

[smestarz]

The Mirage 2000 -5 can sure protect itself. 6 x MICA. I know what you are thinking about MICA range, but Indians top of IAF and politicians one think it's lagely enough. If not, why don't integrate ASTRA1/2 or an Israeli missile with an Israeli radar? It would be a nice test bench for the futur Tejas.

But... they choose the french radar and european missile. Maybe some are not competent or corrupt, but only some of them...

That should actually be a learning advice for you, It means that INDIA CONSIDERS ISRAEL MORE RELIABLE SUPPLIER TO DELIVER THAN FRANCE. So if there is anything that Israel does not produce/offer, we shall source from other source. Radars, Missiles, Avionics etc etc. India selected ELTA for Tejas... we did not even think of going for Thales or selex product, Missiles, Derby and Python prefered over MICA.
BTW Tejas vs Mirage 2000 we already had that discussion, Tejas, better detection range than Mirage 2000, Tejas having long ranged R-77 misiles. so Mirage 2000 (any version) is inferior to Tejas. Seems no matter how much you explain the facts to French they are just indoctrinated to believe that everything French is the best. no matter how badly its over rated.

 

[smestarz]

It will help HAL to end developpement of Tejas.

You are born stupid or you just happen to fall on your head? There is ToT for Mirage 2000, but then we already have flying Tejas, By the way, let me do remind you that HAL had taken advisers from Dassault, for ensuring that Tejas would be ready soon, Unfortunately it just turned out to be an expense, as the Dassault consultants were incompetent and could not help in any development. That should give you the level of liars and incompetent the Dassault consultants were. In Fact they made HAL believe that Rafale is not a threat to Tejas as they are in different "weight class" unfortunately HAL seems to have believed them. But Dassault is very much threatened by Tejas for two reasons.
A) Tejas inducted by IAF means no French plane will be purchased by india for at least next two decades.
B) Tejas will also be competing with Rafale in many of the markets where Rafale is trying and in fact Tejas due to virtue of its low cost, top of the line avionics and easy maintenance will be the choice.

All the Rafale fans can then talk about is the over rated SPECTRA and also how it was "proven" in Libya

 

[garg_bharat]

There is another angle to the current rush for "Make in India" the American F-16 and F-18 fighters.

These both planes although will fly till 2035 but the order book for new has dried up. The production line will be closed by 2018. After that there are two type if business is left I.e. Overhaul & upgrade and supply spare parts for hundreds of planes still flying.

I believe Modi is not buying these planes for IAF, he is after spares and service business. This segment of business is labor intensive and high margin business. India has the capability in servicing these aircrafts. Americans wish somebody else do it. That is where India comes in the picture.

Close to 50,000 people could be employed by the spares supply chain in India and anywhere close to 20,000 people could be employed in overhaul and upgrade business.

I believe the proposal is sound and on good financial footings as FDI is part if the deal.

Only problem is existing US laws will not allow this. There are plenty of barriers that preclude such a deal.

 

[garg_bharat]

I think American proposal is more like local assembly from parts supplied from USA and only limited fabrication in India.

The Gripen proposal is far better, but Gripen uses many American parts as well. Local value addition will be more in Gripen proposal (similar to Su-30 at least).

 

[HariPrasad-1]

hmm I don't have that info, cost-wise we were going to pay 20-25% more on each aircraft than Rafael. We cancelled entire MMRCA because Dassault quoted a very high price. We decided to buy 36 Rafaels but sadly again the same problem. Seems that "Make in India " is a reply to the cost-game of those companies.

Kick the A$$ of dassault. We can go for f16 or F18 or Su35. They are very inexpensive yet potent plane. Me may consider Mig 35 as well.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Adding my point here, Why are you not adding Su-30 MKK and also Su-35S to the mix of chinese planes that India will come against? Our own Su-30 MKI has outclassed RAFALE and so it wont be a match against Su-30 MKK or Su-35. Rather the IAF plan seems to be to pit Su-30 MKI against the Chinese planes and allow Rafale (if purchased) to "prove" itself against F-16 and other planes in Pakistan. During the Kargil war even the older MiG-29 were able to keep the F-16s away from the Mirage 2000.
When people are adding the various "weight categories" we already have MiG-29 which is in the same weight class and capable as Rafale. At least it is more than a match for the F-16 that pakistan has, so why is there a need for Rafale?

The only need for india is for numbers to replace MiG-21 and Tejas can do that comfortably

Rafale has its own advantage in small RCS and PESA radar. It is unique in many way. In some qualities, MKI leads while in some rafale leads. Rafle is no doubt a great plane like Mirage 2000 which is loved by air force after so many years. They are highly reliable and cost effective to operate. The EW suit of rafale (Spectra) is best in the world. If we buy rafale, they are for sure will give us the best service upto 2050. Here the question is at what cost? Can the money be spent better? We have to make a choice.

 

[smestarz]

There is another angle to the current rush for "Make in India" the American F-16 and F-18 fighters.

These both planes although will fly till 2035 but the order book for new has dried up. The production line will be closed by 2018. After that there are two type if business is left I.e. Overhaul & upgrade and supply spare parts for hundreds of planes still flying.

I believe Modi is not buying these planes for IAF, he is after spares and service business. This segment of business is labor intensive and high margin business. India has the capability in servicing these aircrafts. Americans wish somebody else do it. That is where India comes in the picture.

Close to 50,000 people could be employed by the spares supply chain in India and anywhere close to 20,000 people could be employed in overhaul and upgrade business.

I believe the proposal is sound and on good financial footings as FDI is part if the deal.

That is very different and an excellent view. YES spares are expensive and each plane uses about 5% of its value each year, that is almost like getting 5% of the profit of the planes produced by someone else. And even some countries will use these spares well after the Americans close the support (like we are doing for MiG-21) because its not easy to just retire an aircraft when you are not getting anything new yet

 

[garg_bharat]

There is no consideration of make in india for rafale.

 

[ashdoc]

so Mirage 2000 (any version) is inferior to Tejas.

mirage 2000 combat radius is 740 km . tejas combat radius is only 300 km .

 

[smestarz]

mirage 2000 combat radius is 740 km . tejas combat radius is only 300 km .

Unfoftunately you are wrong, the range of Tejas on internal fuel is 850 kms

 

[ashdoc]

Unfoftunately you are wrong, the range of Tejas on internal fuel is 850 kms

listen buddy . i went to the 'make in india' exhibition recently---just few days ago . there , besides a model of tejas aircraft were it's specifications . and the model and specifications were posted by HAL , for it was HAL's part of the exhibition . among the specifications was written tejas' combat radius---300 km .

now if HAL says the combat radius is 300km then you cant argue against it , can you....