India Cold Start Doctrine and Pakistan's Tactical Nukes

[ezsasa]

on 27 Feb

I am working on my analysis to present my two cents to you why india can't open war on all front .

Don’t waste your precious resource on thinking about this...

Let me lay it out for you....

INDIA does not want war....

Even Pakistani army does not want a traditional war with India....

China does not want a war with India...

Only thing India is preparing for is defending itself if we are attacked from both sides at the same time...

 

[Indx TechStyle]

on 27 Feb

Congrats, knocking door on LoC and running away back after deep strike is nothing more than for appeasing local audiences.

This is called attrition warfare where weaker side has advantage because stronger side doesn't want to escalate immediately and ends up punching below its weight.

In case a squadron of aircrafts is moved, war starts and weaker side will struggle to even control its own airspace.

This report shocked me about Rafafel Data data stolen related to the aircraft critical to India’s national security plans for IBGs. This line is make me all day laugh "No hard disk or document has been stolen. More details are being ascertained about the motive,” sources in the Indian Air Force told ANI."
Good spy agencies won't leave a trace and the victim would always think that nothing was stolen. I think here India need to contact the most fav agency in indian media ISI to see who stole this critical data.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...o-in-france/story-MZFudVu7tzBaBnqgjTWJJO.html

Well, if espionage happened (let's not even assume that India tried actually to be "good spy" definition you stated), its indeed embarrassing and utter portrayal of carelessness of personnel involved. But in case it makes you "laugh", makes you suggest us ISI to be best spy agency, I'm very successful in bringing you right on your true flag in your comments.

So, such is your "analysis", better say self appeasing judgement on the basis of an air engagement whose details are not completely out there yet and some espionage just like we list up dozens of losses & coverups from Pakistani side every year which aren't cited by Indians and willfully ignored by you guys.

Nowhere your "sources" or "analysis" have succeeded in suggesting how Pakistan would even sustain itself for more than few days in a war, leave on sustaining parity or superiority.

Come on, you are out completely out in your flavor now. Why you hate your country flag so much?

By the way, the VPN or proxy you tried so hard to get just to troll us on this forum can help you with watching porn only.

I am working on my analysis to present my two cents to you why india can't open war on all front .

Keep on. Meanwhile your government has officially has said, "bachao, bachao"!!
https://www.dawn.com/news/1465407/w...gering-after-pulwama-qureshi-tells-unsc-chief
As told before, they are only good at optics, that even in front of their local audiences only.

They neither have strategic depth, no research & development budget hence no tech and no economic prowess. Their only advantage is their geographical location what they have been using to chrun out money.

 

[Bhadra]

Well Actions have Consequences and become corner stone of News Media, I can provide thousdand thousands links with my analysis but from what I seeing Master list of your logical fallacies doctrine doesn't prove anything your points here. I am not seeing quasi logical argument balance with you.

Look Sir, we all understand here what you are peddling.

That Pakistan has now got Nasar which is nuclear. Pakistan will use nuclear Nasar which will start a nuclear war and entire subcontinent is going to be destroyed.

That threat implies that Pakistan be allowed to pursue "Terrorism" as an instrument of policy against India. If India uses its conventional military power as in instrument of deterrence then Pakistan will use nuclear weapons.

Pakistan has virtually reduced their nuclear deterrence to a level of childish Diwali cracker tamasha proving that it is very dangerous and irresponsible state posing a threat not only to India but to the world. Your Nasar threat reduces Pakistan to a level of Jaish E Muhammad or Laskar e Toiba being Pakistan and Pakistan being a terrorist organisation - Jihadi Tanjim at its worst.

India openly has declared that we are not afraid of your Nasar and if you use it there would be no climbing the ladders but total annihilation of Pakistan. India is prepared to accept consequences.

Besides India has developed and exhibited sufficient capabilities to detect your Nasar and destroy those on deployment itself. Indian artillery rockets range and devastating power is sufficient to take care of your Abu Nasar.

Cod start is an approved doctrine now and it will take place - Abu Nasar or Ami Nasar.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Pakistan will use nuclear Nasar which will start a nuclear war and entire subcontinent is going to be destroyed

Entire subcontinent is too much. However, entire Pakistan, Northwest and North India will be affected.

 

[Bhadra]

Entire subcontinent is too much. However, entire Pakistan, Northwest and North India will be affected.

That is what Pakistanis thinks.

But have a look at geography of India and the wind pattern - best reflected in Monsoon patterns. Have a look at the hydrographical pattern. India has Brahmaputra, Ganga - Yamuna, Krishna- Godavari and Narmada vallies and drainage system. Arawali, Vindhya, Satpura, the Ghats and topped by mighty Himalayas. It is going to be a difficult proposition.

Pakistan on the other hand is nothing but Indus and its tributaries (Panj-aab) land, drainage and wind pattern. One small bomb on Mangla Dam is good enough to bury Ghazwa E Hind for all times to come.

Pakistan is an extensive inter-connected network of water bodies (Canals and Rivers) near Indian border and half of that deliberately created. Their heartland starting from Rahim Yar Khan in South to Muzaffarabad in North is a hub of sprawling urban conglomerate. All areas along the border has sizable urban centers and towns.

And they threaten to use Nasar on their land. Or they think Indians are interested in their Cholistan or Ruhi ?? Their will be at lest four to six IBG into Punjab. Will they bomb Lahore or Multan or Shakargarh ? Will they bomg Indian Forces around their water works ?

Nasar is only meant to give material for Khan Market gang and Diplomat journalist and Porki loving Indian intellectuals to write articles against "Cold Start Doctrine" and spread fear of Islamic Nuclear holocaust. Nothing new - there are people even today who point at Babari Guns in Lahore in their defence inside India.

Pakistani forces deployment at the crucial phase of Brasstacks has proved that Pakistan Punjabi Army will happily trade Cholistan for defence of Punjab. Indian IBG would know where to go.

 

[Arsalan123]

We are called with even worse words. And we will continue to use derogatory words for jihadis and their promoters.

What is Pakistani narrative at first place?

Here are all possibilities summed up.

1. There's a major terror attack in India.
2. Indian Air Force neutralises Pakistani nuclear facilities.
3. Indian IBGs capture large area of Pakistan.
4. Battle escalates Indian tri service command uses strategic weapons, Pakistan surrenders.

2A. Indian Air Force fails to neutralise all Pakistani nuclear installations.
3A. Indian IBGs & military expedite into and capture Pakistani territory.
4A. Pakistan uses nuclear weapons on Indian troops.
5A. India retaliates with nukes and battle ends.

4B. Pakistan chooses not to use nukes. Goes to international community. India leaves some territory after some time under pressure but keeps some with it.

4C. Pakistan doesn't follow its doctrine and hits Indian cities with missiles.
5C. India intercepts some Pakistani missiles. Some couldn't. India hits back with nukes & Pakistan surrenders.

2B. India abolishes its no first use policy and conducts pre emptive nuclear strikes on Pakistani nuclear installations followed by Cold Start. No chance for Pakistan!


Now, let me know how Nasr will make you win or even help with deterrence?

hahahaha you write everything that favors india.there must be something that favor pakistan.

 

[Haldiram]

hahahaha you write everything that favors india.there must be something that favor pakistan.

Polio. That seems to favor Pakistan a lot.
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[Tamil TigerWoods]

hahahaha you write everything that favors india.there must be something that favor pakistan.

Things that favour Pakistan:

1) The ability to lie so convincingly to its own people despite the preponderance of evidence which goes against it. In literally any and all cases. Especially when it comes to the results of wars against India or allegations of state sponsorship of terrorist groups by the entire world.

2) The ability to lose nearly 1/3 of its territory in a war against India less than a quarter century after its independence.

3) The ability to reach borderline failed-state status in the eyes of international observers concerned with human development indices less than 70 years after its independence.

4) The ability to achieve multiple episodes of ballooning debt crises and the requirement of foreign financial bailouts on far too many times for a country less than 80 years old.

5) The ability to lose each and every war against India- so much so that even esteemed American luminaries such as Bruce Riedel who worked for the US government, think tanks and the CIA are remiss if they don’t mention it at each and every turn when it comes to India-Pakistan affairs.

6) The ability to become the global epicentre of pornography related searches from their incel, madrassah-education, pedophile prophet following masses. In an Islamic country nonetheless.

7) The ability to lie and pass themselves off as Indians in the U.S. to avoid the shame and ignominy after one of their beloved sons plans to bomb civilians in Times Square.

Khudha Hafeez.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Paki thread derail alert... Meanwhile when do the Kharga corp excercise start

 

[Indx TechStyle]

hahahaha you write everything that favors india.there must be something that favor pakistan.

So, you may come up with that. There is no real way looks there at least till now where Pakistan could win. It was only threatening of a nuclear suicide what already has been called off.

 

[Anand Bimraj]

Congrats, knocking door on LoC and running away back after deep strike is nothing more than for appeasing local audiences.

This is called attrition warfare where weaker side has advantage because stronger side doesn't want to escalate immediately and ends up punching below its weight.

In case a squadron of aircrafts is moved, war starts and weaker side will struggle to even control its own airspace.

Well, if espionage happened (let's not even assume that India tried actually to be "good spy" definition you stated), its indeed embarrassing and utter portrayal of carelessness of personnel involved. But in case it makes you "laugh", makes you suggest us ISI to be best spy agency, I'm very successful in bringing you right on your true flag in your comments.

So, such is your "analysis", better say self appeasing judgement on the basis of an air engagement whose details are not completely out there yet and some espionage just like we list up dozens of losses & coverups from Pakistani side every year which aren't cited by Indians and willfully ignored by you guys.

Nowhere your "sources" or "analysis" have succeeded in suggesting how Pakistan would even sustain itself for more than few days in a war, leave on sustaining parity or superiority.

Come on, you are out completely out in your flavor now. Why you hate your country flag so much?

By the way, the VPN or proxy you tried so hard to get just to troll us on this forum can help you with watching porn only.

Keep on. Meanwhile your government has officially has said, "bachao, bachao"!!
https://www.dawn.com/news/1465407/w...gering-after-pulwama-qureshi-tells-unsc-chief
As told before, they are only good at optics, that even in front of their local audiences only.

They neither have strategic depth, no research & development budget hence no tech and no economic prowess. Their only advantage is their geographical location what they have been using to chrun out money.

I am reference all Indian media , did I took any thought process from pakistan . Look what Indian Journlist saying about feb 27 we lost , It was a good time start to start IBGs , why kept quiet.

Air Chief of Indian he says stuff like "Rafale will tip balance in our favor from PAF unlike before" while sitting on top of hundreds of Sukhoi 30MKIs and Mig-29s.
Second why choose word ISI becuase RAW intelligence means you have to provide intel hours ago rather when Indian commanders inside the base and JUST escape at the time of opponent bombing.

According to Indian Defence Expert Pravin Sawhney (Auth Force Mag), "Pakistan did not deter with our so-called Military power. PAF entered into our side in broad daylight, bomb our military installations and went back safely. That was a clear message to India, they damn care about our so-called military might. They have courage, military power, capability to hit anytime, anywhere. They did it unlike us to fool our nation with so-called dummy strikes. They have proof whereas we don't have obviously they did it in real. It's against the national narrative as well as interest if we don't accept but facts remain facts."

Don't tell me that Pravin Sawhney words have no value since he is a member of opposition Congress Party and his wife is a member of Delhi Congress women cell commitee.
So in India only BJP words count, rest of the population is all shoodar and hold no value at all?
https://theprint.in/defence/indian-...fore-paf-bomb-fell-in-compound-27-feb/241324/
You are also professional defence expert .If RAW had active intelligence then the commanders should not have been in that area, the briefing should have been cancelled.
Plus you mentioning the link of Dawn. make me laugh again, becuase as you are claimed yourself defence expert anybody who knows little ABC of defence can tell This is their Army posture ( Defensive then offensive then Soft Defensive ). Now question for you what is indian army posture ?

 

[Darth Malgus]

So many brand new trolls in the forum these days quoting chutiya experts...

 

[Bhadra]

I am reference all Indian media , did I took any thought process from pakistan . Look what Indian Journlist saying about feb 27 we lost , It was a good time start to start IBGs , why kept quiet.

Air Chief of Indian he says stuff like "Rafale will tip balance in our favor from PAF unlike before" while sitting on top of hundreds of Sukhoi 30MKIs and Mig-29s.
Second why choose word ISI becuase RAW intelligence means you have to provide intel hours ago rather when Indian commanders inside the base and JUST escape at the time of opponent bombing.

According to Indian Defence Expert Pravin Sawhney (Auth Force Mag), "Pakistan did not deter with our so-called Military power. PAF entered into our side in broad daylight, bomb our military installations and went back safely. That was a clear message to India, they damn care about our so-called military might. They have courage, military power, capability to hit anytime, anywhere. They did it unlike us to fool our nation with so-called dummy strikes. They have proof whereas we don't have obviously they did it in real. It's against the national narrative as well as interest if we don't accept but facts remain facts."

Don't tell me that Pravin Sawhney words have no value since he is a member of opposition Congress Party and his wife is a member of Delhi Congress women cell commitee.
So in India only BJP words count, rest of the population is all shoodar and hold no value at all?
https://theprint.in/defence/indian-...fore-paf-bomb-fell-in-compound-27-feb/241324/
You are also professional defence expert .If RAW had active intelligence then the commanders should not have been in that area, the briefing should have been cancelled.

Praveen Swaney or no Sawney, you must understand that India is on the offensive and on the ball.

We had only one MiG-21 loss after inflaming your Fattu -16. Even if we lost five, it does not matter.

The massage must be clear - We are going to come for you and rip you apart. baki jo hoga dekh lenge. India is on mission mode.

And that is what "cold start" is all about - We will hit Pakistan Army rather than their Tattus.

 

[ezsasa]

hahahaha you write everything that favors india.there must be something that favor pakistan.

There is only one thing in favour of Pakistan, India does not attack first...

 

[Bhadra]

hahahaha you write everything that favors india.there must be something that favor pakistan.

So you wish to know what favours Pakistan :

1. Pakistan Army Deployment including peace time location is along or ahead of N-5. That facilitates quick deployment in Defended areas as also more reaction time.

2. Lines of communications are close to and parallel to border line facilitating quich deployemnt and quicker switching of forces.

3. Water obstacles / canals parallel to border have been developed in layers of depth which would force Indian Forces to carry out multiple canal crossing and bridgehead operations.

4, Lack and scarcity of communications and water in Cholistan / Sindh will force attacking forces to develop lines of maintenance thereby imposing delay and force channelization of offensive forces.

5. Availability of a few centres of communications in Cholistan and Sind will facilitate concentration of greater defending forces.

6. Larger towns and urban clusters near the border wil impose attrition and delay on offensive forces.

7. Constricted maneuver space in Punjab impose restriction on mobility of mobile elements of offensive forces.

8. Lay of the land and drainage patterns divides Northern ares of Pakistan Punjab between three Inter-river doabs. Movement between adjacent doabs is difficult. Hence Offences will be developed in areas between three rivers and channalise them. That facilitates defensive battles and keeping offensive forces restricted between two rivers.
9. Nakyal and Poonch bulges provide good launching pads for developing operations towrs sensetive depth ares of India in J&K.

10 . Operations in hill sectors will be slow, time consuming and prdictable.

11. Population near border ares is semi militarised and a large numbers can be made available as para military force or irregulars.

12. A large pool of trained terrorist exist which can be militarily used during wars / need.

I will explain all properly when its time comes.

 

[Mikesingh]

According to Indian Defence Expert Pravin Sawhney (Auth Force Mag), "Pakistan did not deter with our so-called Military power. PAF entered into our side in broad daylight, bomb our military installations and went back safely. That was a clear message to India, they damn care about our so-called military might. They have courage, military power, capability to hit anytime, anywhere. They did it unlike us to fool our nation with so-called dummy strikes. They have proof whereas we don't have obviously they did it in real. It's against the national narrative as well as interest if we don't accept but facts remain facts."

Firstly, the PAF did not enter Indian territory.
Secondly they dropped their bombs across the border from within their own territory and scooted back to safety like a dormouse seeing a cat. They didn't have the guts to fly into Indian territory and cause destruction. It was a dud raid by a package of 25 aircraft that achieved zilch except for the chance downing of a MiG 21.

And yes, they're shit scared of our military might. Otherwise why on earth would they spend billions of PKR for sustaining their nukes? This is to try and balance the huge force asymmetry. We called their bluff and busted their nuke threat with the Balakot strike.

Dummy strikes? Does that moron think Balakot was a figment of one's imagination?

Lol! Reading that so called 'defence expert's' opinions mentioned in your post was funny. In fact, rather silly!

 

[Haldiram]

Firstly, the PAF did not enter Indian territory.
Secondly they dropped their bombs across the border from within their own territory and scooted back to safety like a dormouse seeing a cat. They didn't have the guts to fly into Indian territory and cause destruction. It was a dud raid by a package of 25 aircraft that achieved zilch except for the chance downing of a MiG 21.

And yes, they're shit scared of our military might. Otherwise why on earth would they spend billions of PKR for sustaining their nukes? This is to try and balance the huge force asymmetry. We called their bluff and busted their nuke threat with the Balakot strike.

Dummy strikes? Does that moron think Balakot was a figment of one's imagination?

Lol! Reading that so called 'defence expert's' opinions mentioned in your post was funny. In fact, rather silly!

You're talking to an ISPR account

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Air Chief of Indian he says stuff like "Rafale will tip balance in our favor from PAF unlike before" while sitting on top of hundreds of Sukhoi 30MKIs and Mig-29s.

India didn't deploy Su30 & MiG-29 against Pakistan. As far as Rafael is concerned, you know nothing about that plane.

It was more of a political statement after row created by RaGa and anger expressed by IAF as a significant part of IAF inventory is vintage (Guess? India has some obsolete planes but besides F-16, entire PAF is ancient as per Indian standards).

That's why this stupid comment. Rest of your post is garbage with no "actual analysis" and just quoting media houses.

Franly saying, your assertion is that it must be true because some XYZ Indian said so and want to interpret solely by Pakistani narrative (which never has any logic). But you can't explain it. Damn, you can't explain anything.
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I asked about Pakistani tactical advantage and you have been spinning things around a failed air engagement. It pretty much explains how capable you are of analysis. You can't explain. How?

 

[Anand Bimraj]

India didn't deploy Su30 & MiG-29 against Pakistan. As far as Rafael is concerned, you know nothing about that plane.

It was more of a political statement after row created by RaGa and anger expressed by IAF as a significant part of IAF inventory is vintage (Guess? India has some obsolete planes but besides F-16, entire PAF is ancient as per Indian standards).

That's why this stupid comment. Rest of your post is garbage with no "actual analysis" and just quoting media houses.

Franly saying, your assertion is that it must be true because some XYZ Indian said so and want to interpret solely by Pakistani narrative (which never has any logic). But you can't explain it. Damn, you can't explain anything.
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I asked about Pakistani tactical advantage and you have been spinning things around a failed air engagement. It pretty much explains how capable you are of analysis. You can't explain. How?

The conventional wisdom amongst some defense analysts is that an attacking force requires a minimum of a 1.5:1 superiority in forces at the theater level to succeed.
for India all front-war i think this paper is enough to explain you why for conventional Balance : India still not meet the 3:1 rule.
http://muse.jhu.edu/article/446798
pakistan plans to deal with India’s cold-start doctrine, now re-named the pro-active strategy by boast of developing TNW to protect itself against potential offensive actions by India. in fact, Pakistan is the only country currently boasting of making tiny nuclear weapons can fit into brief case and as per their claim removed the radiation effect within days to utilize land again after detonating.
You are right I am not aircraft person and thanks to bear my knowledge but I can understand that Rafale would beat the JF-17 to the punch. It is a force multiplier compared to the JF-17. The Rafale possesses better first look, first shot, first kill technologies that the JF-17 A head to head BVR combat between the two aircraft would possibly be 80:20 in favor of the Rafale due to the reduced RCS of the Rafale and its superior Meteor BVR missile.
Since modern air warfare is dependant on BVR combat, it must be kept in mind that the hypothetical kill ratios of “Beyond Visual Range” missiles is an interesting topic.

 

[Sanglamorre]

I don't get it. If the missiles have tiny brief case size war heads whose radiation is so weak that it can be removed in days, how many millions of them will be needed to cause any major damage?

Iirc, how long the radiation will stay is governed by the half life of the element. You can't reduce it if you want. Unless of course, I'm missing something very big here.