IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

airtel

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Does it make sense to buy the same Torpedoes that Pakis use?
we dont have other options ...............

only few countries have ability to develop & manufacture HWT

F-21 is also developed with the Help of German Atlas Elektronik , F-21 is the latest HWT but France is not ready to sell F-21 if we want to use it in non-french submarines , we can not use American or Japanese Torpedo in Russian submarines .
 
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AmoghaVarsha

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we dont have other options ...............

only few countries have ability to develop & manufacture HWT , we can not use American or Japanese Torpedo in Russian submarines .
Arent these Torpedoes for Scorpenes and the SSBNs.The Kilo Class already have torpedoes i believe.
 

syncro

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There are rumors that Fincantieri after
varunastra is a ship launched torpedo ...........TALW or TAL also can not be used in submarines .

Takshak HWTs is a submarine-launched variant of Varunastra HWTs with wire guidance...........which is under development , However, it could take several years before the torpedo comes to operational use.

French are willing to provide the F21 torpedos, but they said it would do only for French submarines not in russian or german or Indian .

at present Black shark is the best submarine Launched Torpedo but ................Finmeccanica Group is Banned so ........India will go for German Torpedo .
The Black Shark is not only one the best (or the best) torpedo on the market, but also has a unique feature... the Black Shark official figures say that has a 260-280 kg warhead ... the true value is 500 kg for standard versions and 420 kg for the black shark advanced (the new polymers batteries are less efficient (but they have 100+ recharge cycles against of 8-10 of old batteries) and was necessary to increase their dimension to the detriment of the quantity of explosive on board.

The Italian torpedoes have a head so big because in the Mediterranean sea there are usually three types of warships too big for the small warheads normal modern torpedoes: French and American carriers
and maybe Russian cruisers.

With the current increase of size also frigates and destroyers class it is a feature that can come in handy.
Among the other Italian Navy considers fundamental to have on board warships heavy 533 mm torpedoes from 533 mm and also one of the reasons why are fixated with high-speed vessels: frigate Lupo class 35 kn, Maestrale 33 kn, the new PPA class 35+ kn... as the last resource fired all the missiles they are able to chase and overun practically all types of enemy ships and to try to torpedo.

Among other things, the problem could be solved in another way: Fincantieri wants to buy DCNS and DCNS It is a midget in the current situation, it depends on the 90% by military orders and how Navantia has some financial problems and no great prospects for the future... for Fincantieri the military sector accounts only for 10%... just to give an idea the Carnival group bought by Fincantieri $ 38 billion of luxury cruise ships in the last 20 years.

Solved the problems of acquisition of STX France shipyard and after French elections there are good chance that DCNS (excluding the DNCS nuclear that will remain clearly under control of the French state) become a subsidiary of Leonardo-Finmeccanica with some block option for the French state.
 

airtel

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There are rumors that Fincantieri after


The Black Shark is not only one the best (or the best) torpedo on the market, but also has a unique feature... the Black Shark official figures say that has a 260-280 kg warhead ... the true value is 500 kg for standard versions and 420 kg for the black shark advanced (the new polymers batteries are less efficient (but they have 100+ recharge cycles against of 8-10 of old batteries) and was necessary to increase their dimension to the detriment of the quantity of explosive on board.

The Italian torpedoes have a head so big because in the Mediterranean sea there are usually three types of warships too big for the small warheads normal modern torpedoes: French and American carriers
and maybe Russian cruisers.

With the current increase of size also frigates and destroyers class it is a feature that can come in handy.
Among the other Italian Navy considers fundamental to have on board warships heavy 533 mm torpedoes from 533 mm and also one of the reasons why are fixated with high-speed vessels: frigate Lupo class 35 kn, Maestrale 33 kn, the new PPA class 35+ kn... as the last resource fired all the missiles they are able to chase and overun practically all types of enemy ships and to try to torpedo.

Among other things, the problem could be solved in another way: Fincantieri wants to buy DCNS and DCNS It is a midget in the current situation, it depends on the 90% by military orders and how Navantia has some financial problems and no great prospects for the future... for Fincantieri the military sector accounts only for 10%... just to give an idea the Carnival group bought by Fincantieri $ 38 billion of luxury cruise ships in the last 20 years.

Solved the problems of acquisition of STX France shipyard and after French elections there are good chance that DCNS (excluding the DNCS nuclear that will remain clearly under control of the French state) become a subsidiary of Leonardo-Finmeccanica with some block option for the French state.
even the Italian Navy rejected the Black Shark, instead choosed Atlas Elektronik torpedo .


Fincantieri wants to buy DCNS but I dont think they will sell it to any foreign company .................. french govt. has majority of shares & recently DCNS got 50 billion $ orders from Australia .

even after losses they will not sell it to any foreign company .
 

airtel

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old article >>


The DRDO's triad of laboratories supply the Indian Navy with high-potential weapons systems.






BY SPECIAL ARRANGEMENT

S.V. Rangarajan, Director, NSTL.


THE 52 laboratories of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) spread across India have a high-potential but low-profile trimurti, specialising in naval systems, among them – the Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL) in Visakhapatnam, the Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL) in Kochi, and the Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) at Ambernath, 60 km from Mumbai. “I describe them as Brahma, Vishnu and Siva [the triad of Hindu gods],” said S.V. Rangarajan, Director, NSTL.

The NSTL, situated in the foothills of the Eastern Ghats, is the only laboratory in the country to develop underwater weapons such as torpedoes and mines, their associated fire control systems, and decoys to “seduce” enemy torpedoes. It also develops stealth technology, produces autonomous underwater vehicles (AUVs) and conducts research in hydro-dynamics. The NPOL develops sonars, surveillance and underwater communication systems and counter-measures. The NMRL has come up with non-skid, anti-corrosion and fire-retardant paints, smart coating and fuel cells. It pursues research in protective technologies, marine materials, energy science, polymers and ceramics. “While the NPOL is Brahma, the perceiver, and the NMRL the protector, we are Siva, the destroyer,” declared Rangarajan, filling the room with his gentle humour. He predicted that future wars would be fought at sea and under water. But while most of the underwater technology was not available in the marketplace, he said India had made “significant progress, with an indigenous grip” in the field. “Our base is strong,” he said.

Scientists of the NSTL work in a harsh atmosphere as they work under water, which is about 850 times heavier than air. The technology of developing torpedoes is much more complex than building missiles because torpedoes have to speed under water where the resistance is far higher than in air. Besides, Rangarajan said, torpedoes are an amalgam of difficult disciplines: they include electro-chemistry, structural engineering, mechatronics, signal processing, real-time software, embedded systems, transduction and sensing, acoustics, gyroscopes, inertial navigation and guidance systems, and warheads.

The NSTL has developed both light-water torpedoes (LWTs), named TAL, and heavy-weight torpedoes (HWTs), named Takshak and Varunastra. Takshak has two versions, a submarine-launched variant with wire guidance and a ship-launched one with autonomous guidance. Varunastra is an advanced version of the ship-launched HWT. Under development is a torpedo called Shakti with thermal propulsion, which can generate 500 kilowatt of power and rev up the engine within a second. “Thermal propulsion is a challenging technology,” said Rangarajan. “It is a totally indigenous effort. We have already consolidated several technologies in its development. Only the United States, the United Kingdom and Russia had torpedoes with thermal propulsion when we took up the challenge.”

The LWT is 2-3 metres long, weighs 200 kg to 300 kg and packs 50 kg of explosives. It can be launched from ships and helicopters. When a helicopter releases the LWT, the latter drops down with the help of a parachute, which gets detached when the torpedo hits the water. TAL has a speed of 33 knots an hour and can operate at a maximum depth of 540 m. It is under production by Bharat Dynamics Limited, Hyderabad, for the Navy.

The Advanced LWT (ALWT) is currently under design and will be in production in 2015-16. In Takshak, which is an anti-submarine system, the wire is the medium of communication between the torpedo and the firing ship. If the wire breaks, Takshak would become an autonomous torpedo like its ship-launched variant. It can travel up to a distance of 40 km for taking out submarines and can operate up to a depth of 400 m.

Varunastra, which is ready for trials by the Navy, weighs more than one tonne and contains 250 kg of explosives. It travels at a speed of 40 knots an hour, going in circles and bobbing up and down to attack targets. K. Sudhakar, Principal Associate Director, NSTL, called the torpedo's homing device, located in its front portion, “its eyes and ears” as it detects and tracks the target. Its guidance system enables it to take the optimum path towards the target, and its onboard computer guides its rudder's navigation towards the target. The warhead has a proximity fuse, with the blast occurring about 8 m from the target. “The torpedo should have its own intelligence to reject the decoy and go towards the target,” Sudhakar said. Besides, torpedoes should be water-tight. “Development of a torpedo takes 10 to 15 years. It has to go through several sea trials. We started out in this field 25 years ago. No torpedo technology is available in the open market,” he added.

C.V. SUBRAHMANYAM

A TORPEDO DEVELOPED by the NSTL, being tested in mid-sea.


Decoys are mini-torpedoes that “seduce” and mislead torpedoes coming from enemy craft so that naval vessels can get away, explained N. Raghavarao, senior scientist. The NSTL has developed a submarine-launched decoy. The Navy has inducted this decoy into service. The NSTL and the NPOL are working on another decoy called Mareech. The NSTL is developing Mohini, a rocket-launched anti-sonar decoy.

Mines in underwater warfare are lethal and cost-effective weapons. Capable of detecting targets, they can be launched from ships, submarines and air. They can stay under water in “sleep” mode for several months and, on sensing magnetic, acoustic and pressure signatures, wake up to detonate. The NSTL has delivered processor-based ground (that is, seabed) mine to the Navy, says S.M. Bhave, a senior scientist. It has developed moored mines, which will hang at certain depths in the sea.

A big programme under way at the NSTL is the building of an AUV. Manu Korulla, scientist, called the AUVs “a new class of intelligent underwater vehicles, which will operate without human supervision to carry out survey, surveillance and reconnaissance missions.” The AUV can be configured to drop and hunt for mines, lift underwater bodies, do counter-communication measures and change course on sensing obstacles. It will have cameras, sonars and image processors. “We know the technology to develop various sizes of AUVs for various applications,” Korulla said.

C.D. Malleswar, a senior scientist, said the laboratory had developed Panchendriya, a submarine-based fire-control system (FCS), which has been inducted into the Navy's Vela class of submarines. The FCS receives information from the boat's sonar on the target's bearing and presets the torpedoes for destroying the enemy craft. The NSTL has supplied three helicopter-based FCSs for torpedoes to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. “We have received production orders for seven FCSs for the integrated anti-submarine war complex,” Malleswar said. The NSTL has gargantuan facilities. There is a big hall with several state-of-the-art CNC [Computer Numerical Control] machines. R.V.S. Subrahmanyam, scientist, said the components used in torpedoes, mines and decoys were machined in CNC machines. “This is elite class work,” he said, showing a component where the clearance between a rotor and its cowl was just 0.5 mm.

The NSTL's High Speed Towing Tank is a huge building enclosing a water channel that is 500 m long, 8 m wide and 8 m deep. It holds 32,000 tonnes of water. NSTL scientists tow models of ships and submarines at high speed in the channel to study the resistance offered to them by water, the resultant drag, and the power required to overcome the resistance. “We study the resistance offered by water so that we can design the hull of these bodies more efficiently,” said P.K. Panigrahi, a senior scientist.

Another big facility is a cavitation tunnel. Here water is pumped on to a propeller to create flow conditions for the blades to study the phenomenon of bubbles formation. Amazing is the sea-keeping and manoeuvring basin, an artificial lake with a roof, which is under construction. Four giant borewells will pump 240 lakh litres of water over three months to form the lake, which will be 135 m long, 37 m broad and 5 m deep. Here, waves will be generated to study their impact on the seaworthiness and agility of vessels.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2905/stories/20120323290509800.htm





varunastra is already developed may be Takshak will be developed soon ...............
 
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syncro

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even the Italian Navy rejected the Black Shark, instead choosed Atlas Elektronik torpedo . (this is a fake)


Fincantieri wants to buy DCNS but I dont think they will sell it to any foreign company .................. french govt. has majority of shares & recently DCNS got 50 billion $ orders from Australia .

even after losses they will not sell it to any foreign company .
the story of german torpedo is a fake.

For Australia are 50 billion of australian dollar (about 34.5 billion euro) and the 50 billion is the total planned cost of the operating life in 50 years of the 12 submarines built in Australia (moreover the combat system is american and is about the 10% of that cost).

Estimates say that the consequences for the French industry are about around 8 billion euro (in 50 years)... and the first sub is planned for 2027 (10 years from now).
 
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airtel

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the story of german torpedo is a fake.
this is what they said (may be you are right ) ................Ajay Shukla is unreliable .

Seahake advocates argue that even the Italian Navy rejected the Black Shark, instead choosing Atlas Elektronik torpedoes. As its next-generation choice, Italy has plumped for the F-21 Future Heavyweight Torpedo, that Atlas Elektronik is co-developing with French company, Thales. France, too, rejected the Black Shark.

With the Italian, French and German navies having rejected the Black Shark, this torpedo is fielded by only five small navies - those of Chile, Ecuador, Malaysia, Portugal and Singapore. In contrast, Atlas Elektronik is the largest international supplier, having supplied torpedoes to 18 navies worldwide.

http://wap.business-standard.com/ar...o-build-domestic-industry-115040900032_1.html
 

syncro

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is the usually asian FUD... no problems.

Among other things Germany is buying lightweight torpedo MU-90 from Italy and special shoulder luancher mini torpedoes for frogmen ... always produced by WASS.

To say also that Chile has a small marina is also a bit simplistic ... Chile has one of the most powerful armed forces in South America and bought 100 Black Shark ... more than the 80 for the Italian Navy and of the 98 planned for India .for the record :)
 
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Tarun Kumar

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We should thank madame sonia and SP Tyagi for their wonderful gift to the country. We should also thank Parrikar who has brains of a thanedar for further complicating the torpedo mess. Sea Hake torpedo is not an option as it is used by pakiland and adapting it to Subtic system of scorpene will cost 30million dollar per submarine. The french torpedo is still in development . India is not even ready to test a wire guided sub launched torpedo, please forget about building a 4th gen system anytime soon. The scorpene leak has a minimal impact as no vital data was compromised. The best option for MOD is to fine Finmeccanica and purchase black sharks asap. Scorpene is our most potent sub and can be produced in large numbers so it is beyond senseless to keep it without a modern torpedo.
 

airtel

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The best option for MOD is to fine Finmeccanica and purchase black sharks asap. Scorpene is our most potent sub and can be produced in large numbers so it is beyond senseless to keep it without a modern torpedo.

LOL fine Finmeccanica ??

that is not possible .....................there will be a ban for few years .
 

BON PLAN

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Does it make sense to buy the same Torpedoes that Pakis use?
I think it's like with AtoA missile : you can change the seeker, or at least the wavelengh the seeker used.

For torpedoes, if you use the wire guided mode, you can use the same model the foe in front of you ! the first to see (hear) the other will win the game.
 

airtel

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F21 and See Hake.
or Mark48 US model.....
India need a Torpedo which can be used in french , german , Indian & russian Submarines ...................so M48 is out of question , french are not ready to let us use F-21 on Russian submarines .

so only option = German torpedo or we develop Takshak HWT .
 

lcafanboy

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Does it make sense to buy the same Torpedoes that Pakis use?
By that logic, Does it make any sense to buy F-16s which are being used by Pakis for last 30 years?

Only a handful of nations and companies make weapons and you have to choose between them. Previous khangress govt.'s policy of doing scams after scams in weapons deal and then black listing these companies have lead to this situation where what we want (Black Shark) that company (finmacanica) is black listed then what options we have to buy from another company which is not black listed now his company maybe supplying weapons to pakis too what can be done. The only option to avoid his is to increase R&D and make all weapons in house.
 

Tarun Kumar

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By that logic, Does it make any sense to buy F-16s which are being used by Pakis for last 30 years?

Only a handful of nations and companies make weapons and you have to choose between them. Previous khangress govt.'s policy of doing scams after scams in weapons deal and then black listing these companies have lead to this situation where what we want (Black Shark) that company (finmacanica) is black listed then what options we have to buy from another company which is not black listed now his company maybe supplying weapons to pakis too what can be done. The only option to avoid his is to increase R&D and make all weapons in house.
Congress alone is not be blamed. parrikar and fenku are equally responsible. For operational necessity, it is possible to ban augusta westland and go for G2G deal with Italy for Black Sharks but Parrikar and fenku want Congress mukt bharat over torpedo mukt IN. The hard work of nearly a decade is waste if scorpene goes with old torpedos which are being used in shishumar class subs which are wire guided. Scorpene needs new black shark torpedos and it needs it now.
 

Tarun Kumar

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Also the F16 logic is incorrect.The F16s that India is getting have a completely different sensor profile and radar compared to PAF F16 . The sea hake that scorpene will be using is exactly similar to paki ones and pakis would have built their tactics around it.
 

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