Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

WolfPack86

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US Firms May Have An Edge Over In Big Deals

BANGALORE: Defence deals, unlike in most other sectors, are not sealed at open events but result from long-drawn negotiations, often involving two countries and seldom restricted to two companies. Yet, events like Aero India provide a platform to firms wanting to bag big deals and countries trying to woo the best in the business.
At the 11th Aero India beginning Tuesday, experts say, firms from the US are likely to hold the 'Trump' card as compulsions of global politics in general and aggression of the Donald Trump regime, in particular, sees India walking with the US in the coming years.
But the most spoken about defense deal in the country will be the IAF's single-engine fighter aircraft. The IAF in November 2016 floated a request for information (RFI) for the fighter plane which has already received a positive response.
Experts, however, say the two contenders, given IAF's requirements, will be the Lockheed Martin F-16 and the SAAB Gripen. Both the firms, US' Lockheed and Swedish SAAB, are offering planes better than they did for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal which Dassault's Rafale bagged. Lockheed is offering the F-16 block 70, while SAAB will bring the Gripen-E, its next generation aircraft.
Randall L Howard, F-16 business development head, had told TOI that the firm was not selling a dead aircraft and that the IAF would be getting the best in the class. Lockheed has also offered to move a production line to India as part of the deal. "...Not only will India be making for India, but also for the world," he had said.
Taking a dig at Lockheed, SAAB India Technologies chairman and MD Jan Widerstrom said last week: "We are not looking at shifting an old production line that will allow India to build 100 old aircraft. We are looking at forging a partnership that will see the country build capabilities to build a next generation aircraft that will serve its armed forces for the next 100 years."
While sources in the IAF said the Gripen is a new and better aircraft compared to the F-16, which has only been updated, experts say that the latter may still have an edge. Air Marshal BK Pandey (retd) said, "Given the present political scenario and the kind of ties we are looking at having with the US, the F-16 looks like the aircraft. Just buying that, however, would be foolish."
Another expert pointed out that if the F-16 deal has to come through then there needs to be some policy change in the US pertaining to Transfer of Technology (ToT) which may take years — but the IAF's need is immediate.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/us-firms-may-have-edge-in-big-deals.html
 

WolfPack86

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US, Indian Governments Talking On Making F-16 In India: Lockheed

BANGALORE: American defense major Lockheed Martin today said discussions are currently taking place between the US and Indian governments on the company's plans to set up manufacturing base for F-16 fighter jets in India.
"The conversation has progressed to the point that we are deferring at this point to the government-to-government conversation. And that conversation is ongoing," a top company official told reporters at Aero India 2017 air show here.
The comments from Randy Howard, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, Integrated Fighter, Director, Business Development, came when asked about its move to push ahead with its plan to move production of its F-16 to India, but that the Trump Administration is taking a "fresh look" at its proposal.
"We had really very strong support up to this point. We are deferring those questions and concerns over to governments who are having an ongoing conversation. The discussions have progressed to the point that the requirements need to be more fully articulated...," he said.
"There are a number of internal discussions going on here in India on strategic partners. Discussions between the two governments at this point. We will wait to hear from the two governments and Lockheed Martin is fully supportive of those decisions," he said.
Lockheed had said recently that its officials have briefed the Trump Administration on the current proposal, which was supported by the Obama Administration as part of a broader cooperative dialogue with the Government of India.
Trump has flayed US firms for having moved manufacturing overseas and then sell their products back to the US and asked them to produce in the US itself. Lockheed, however, does not plan to sell back F-16 in the US which has not placed fresh orders for it.
In August last, Lockheed had offered to move its lone production line of the latest version of F 16-Block 70 to India from Texas to meet Indian and global requirement.
However, the company has made it clear the proposal is "conditional" to Indian Air Force choosing the world's largest-sold fighter aircraft for its fleet.
"We understand that the Trump Administration will want to take a fresh look at some of these programs and we stand prepared to support that effort to ensure that any deal of this importance is properly aligned with US policy priorities," a Lockheed Martin official had said recently.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/02/us-indian-governments-talking-on-making.html
 

Tarun Kumar

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America has been referred to in the bible as the whore of babylon in the end times for a reason. Like a whore, she will take all your money and give u very little . If GOI is thinking that US will help India in AMCA, then it totally delusional. A better option is to offer Dassault and Elysee a sweet offer. MII for rafale + additional royalty in return for merging Neuron and AMCA programme. French cannot finance Neuron development on their own and we need the AI/sensor/radar tech. Its a marriage made in heaven and we jump to 6th gen directly.
 

WolfPack86

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Gripen E Manufactures 5TH Generation Fighter Jets In India Says Manohar Parikar
 

WolfPack86

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Sweden's Defence Major Saab Offers Its Aircraft Gripen E Under The 'Make In India' Initiative
 

Bornubus

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Much better than Nutter crap 36 Rafale Deal.
 

Bornubus

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Why is the Rafale deal a Crap one is it because of the delivery schedule or the overall cost we paid for a 4th Generation fighter ??
With costly 36 Fighter you can't fight a one front let alone a two front. Even if Rafale will have 100 % serviceability.

The Serviceability rate of Rafale with french Air Force is 48 %
 

captscooby81

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Well i read post by a distinguished member of TeamBHP Forum giving the reason for the cost and the break up here i am copy pasting the same below Not sure if someone has posted the same before in DFI

Understanding India's $8 billion Rafale Deal:

Originally, India was supposed to buy 126 Rafales for $12 billion, but ended up buying jst 36 Rafales for $8 billion. Now that raised lots of eye-brows. Here is a breakup of the $8 billion deal -

1) Cost of 28 single seater & 8 dual seater Rafales: $3.8 billion ($105 million per aircraft)

2) Cost of Weapons: $700 million (includes Meteor long range air-to-air missiles and Storm Shadow Air-to-ground cruise missile).

Meteor is a long range (100 Km) radar guided fire-and-forget air-to-air missile, with an effective range (against a manoeuvring fighter aircraft) of 50 km. That makes it 3 times more effective than American AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. One unique feature about the Meteor is that the missile can control its speed based distance between it and the target. When the target is far away, the ECU will adjust the throttle so that the missile cruises at a speed that gives it maximum range . As it approaches the target, the missile reaches up to Mach 4 speeds.Storm Shadow is a 1.3 tonne Air Launched Cruise Missile with a maximum range of 600 kms. So it is lighter, has a longer range and carries a larger warhead than Brahmos air launched missile. However, unlike Brahmos, Storm Shadow is a sub-sonic missile

3) Performance based Logistics: $350 million over 5 years (Dassault guarantees serviceability of 80% for IAF's Rafale fleet). Dassault claims it takes just 30 minutes to 1 hour to replace an engine (as against 8 hrs of Su-30 MKI). Quick maintenance of Rafale means it is capable of carrying out up to 5 sorties per day (as against max 3 per day for Su-30 MKI

4) Infrastructure & Training: $1.4 billion (includes extra engines, training in France for 10 pilots, spare parts, bomb proof hangars, training simulators etc)

5) Customization: $1.7 billion -> modification for Rafales to suit IAF needs. Makes Rafale compatible with Indian nukes & Brahmos cruise missile, interoperability with Su-30 MKI and other Indian jets, installation of IFF, ability to fire Israeli/Indian missiles and modifications to allow Rafale to operate from high altitude airbases with full weapons load.

IAF spending $1.7 billion on customization implies that after 36 Rafales are delivered over the next 5 years, a bigger order for Rafales cannot be ruled out. Future Rafale orders are likely to cost only $105 million (plus inflation) because infrastructure & customization is already done.

I guess IAF would like to see how Sukhoi T-50 program turns out. Plus IAF needs to see the capabilities and absolute number of J31/J20 in Chinese Air Force. The two squadrons of Rafale are likely to be based in UP and West Bengal. Clearly, the Rafale is intended to deter the Dragon.

There is a 50% offset clause, which means Dassault needs to invest/procure $4 billion in or from India. Dassault has tied up with Anil Ambani (ugh, I know!) and will procure components worth $1.6 billion over the next 5 years. The remaining $2.4 billion will be invested in Indian defence aircraft industry - this is where the deal gets interesting.

* Snecma (engine maker) will help India develop Kaveri engine for Tejas/AMCA, with 30% higher power than the existing GE engine
* Dassault will help India develop HAL AMCA.
* MBDA (maker of Mica & Meteor missiles) will transfer thrust vectoring technology to DRDO for use in their missles
* Setting up a RAM (Radar Absorbing Material) coating center for Indian fighter aircraft, with technology transfer. Application of this coating will reduce Radar footprint of Tejas, Su-30MKI, AMCA etc.
* AESA radar technology transfer. Will be used for desi Uttam AESA radar.

This deal will basically speed up India's Defence R&D capabilities.



With costly 36 Fighter you can't fight a one front let alone a two front. Even if Rafale will have 100 % serviceability.

The Serviceability rate of Rafale with french Air Force is 48 %
 

IndianHawk

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* Dassault will help India develop HAL AMCA.
* MBDA (maker of Mica & Meteor missiles) will transfer thrust vectoring technology to DRDO for use in their missles
* Setting up a RAM (Radar Absorbing Material) coating center for Indian fighter aircraft, with technology transfer. Application of this coating will reduce Radar footprint of Tejas, Su-30MKI, AMCA etc.
* AESA radar technology transfer. Will
Do we have any confirmation regarding the above?? There are talks maybe but they are separate from rafale deal IMO.
 

Bornubus

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Well i read post by a distinguished member of TeamBHP Forum giving the reason for the cost and the break up here i am copy pasting the same below Not sure if someone has posted the same before in DFI

Understanding India's $8 billion Rafale Deal:

Originally, India was supposed to buy 126 Rafales for $12 billion, but ended up buying jst 36 Rafales for $8 billion. Now that raised lots of eye-brows. Here is a breakup of the $8 billion deal -

1) Cost of 28 single seater & 8 dual seater Rafales: $3.8 billion ($105 million per aircraft)

2) Cost of Weapons: $700 million (includes Meteor long range air-to-air missiles and Storm Shadow Air-to-ground cruise missile).

Meteor is a long range (100 Km) radar guided fire-and-forget air-to-air missile, with an effective range (against a manoeuvring fighter aircraft) of 50 km. That makes it 3 times more effective than American AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. One unique feature about the Meteor is that the missile can control its speed based distance between it and the target. When the target is far away, the ECU will adjust the throttle so that the missile cruises at a speed that gives it maximum range . As it approaches the target, the missile reaches up to Mach 4 speeds.Storm Shadow is a 1.3 tonne Air Launched Cruise Missile with a maximum range of 600 kms. So it is lighter, has a longer range and carries a larger warhead than Brahmos air launched missile. However, unlike Brahmos, Storm Shadow is a sub-sonic missile

3) Performance based Logistics: $350 million over 5 years (Dassault guarantees serviceability of 80% for IAF's Rafale fleet). Dassault claims it takes just 30 minutes to 1 hour to replace an engine (as against 8 hrs of Su-30 MKI). Quick maintenance of Rafale means it is capable of carrying out up to 5 sorties per day (as against max 3 per day for Su-30 MKI

4) Infrastructure & Training: $1.4 billion (includes extra engines, training in France for 10 pilots, spare parts, bomb proof hangars, training simulators etc)

5) Customization: $1.7 billion -> modification for Rafales to suit IAF needs. Makes Rafale compatible with Indian nukes & Brahmos cruise missile, interoperability with Su-30 MKI and other Indian jets, installation of IFF, ability to fire Israeli/Indian missiles and modifications to allow Rafale to operate from high altitude airbases with full weapons load.

IAF spending $1.7 billion on customization implies that after 36 Rafales are delivered over the next 5 years, a bigger order for Rafales cannot be ruled out. Future Rafale orders are likely to cost only $105 million (plus inflation) because infrastructure & customization is already done.

I guess IAF would like to see how Sukhoi T-50 program turns out. Plus IAF needs to see the capabilities and absolute number of J31/J20 in Chinese Air Force. The two squadrons of Rafale are likely to be based in UP and West Bengal. Clearly, the Rafale is intended to deter the Dragon.

There is a 50% offset clause, which means Dassault needs to invest/procure $4 billion in or from India. Dassault has tied up with Anil Ambani (ugh, I know!) and will procure components worth $1.6 billion over the next 5 years. The remaining $2.4 billion will be invested in Indian defence aircraft industry - this is where the deal gets interesting.

* Snecma (engine maker) will help India develop Kaveri engine for Tejas/AMCA, with 30% higher power than the existing GE engine
* Dassault will help India develop HAL AMCA.
* MBDA (maker of Mica & Meteor missiles) will transfer thrust vectoring technology to DRDO for use in their missles
* Setting up a RAM (Radar Absorbing Material) coating center for Indian fighter aircraft, with technology transfer. Application of this coating will reduce Radar footprint of Tejas, Su-30MKI, AMCA etc.
* AESA radar technology transfer. Will be used for desi Uttam AESA radar.

This deal will basically speed up India's Defence R&D capabilities.
What you are telling here is the specs and Loadout of Rafale which is in common knowledge.
 

warrior monk

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The amount of speculation by Rafale fanboys with all due respect to them is astounding it will put to shame even the most hardcore speculators on Wall street.
 

IndianHawk

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With costly 36 Fighter you can't fight a one front let alone a two front. Even if Rafale will have 100 % serviceability.

The Serviceability rate of Rafale with french Air Force is 48 %
I agree 100% unless they order 36 or 72 more birds rafale won't be able to turn the tide.

But if we could field 72 rafale + 120 sukhoi against china in Northeast theatre that is some serious airpower.
 

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