Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

WolfPack86

New Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,571
Likes
16,993
Country flag
Dogfight Over Security Of Indian Skies To Begin Anew

The dogfight over the choice of fighter jets – known as the Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) – that are to provide security for the Indian skies is beginning again, this time for a much larger number than the 2007 figure of 189 asked by the Indian Air Force (IAF), an estimated 400 for for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and 60 for and Navy.
While IAF has already issued a global request for single engine combat jets under the government’s Make in India programme, the Indian Navy is looking for about 60 twin-engine shipboard fighters for delivery to begin within five years. The navy’s first Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC 1) is due for delivery within the next couple of years, and the preferred choice this time is either the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet or French Rafale, which IAF has already decided to buy.
The two single engine aircraft being considered by IAF are US Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon and Swedish SAAB Gripen,
Boeing, which developed the F 18 as a shipboard fighter, has also offered to make it in India while sources in Dassault, which makes Rafale, told India Strategic recently that they are aware of the Indian requirements and should be submitting a proposal soon. Rafale was also developed as a shipboard fighter.
IAF is buying 36 Rafale Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) under a government-to-government basis and the first contractual payment of 15 percent was made in November to seal the deal. The first batch of six or so aircraft is to be delivered to IAF in 2019 as per the contract although India has requested the timelines to be advanced.
Notably, shipboard jets are strong as they virtually have to crash-land on carrier decks on full power and it is easier to adapt them for lighter air force requirements. Conversely, it is difficult.
Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba had recently stated that the navy had jettisoned the indigenous naval variant of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) because of low power. He did not specify the number or choice for the naval requirement but did say that only a couple of them are available in the market and that he wants them as fast as possible, say in about five years. He expressed confidence for speedy government approval.
As for IAF, it has been losing two squadrons of Soviet-vintage Mig series aircraft every year, and although the numbers are being made up to an extent by the licence-production of 272 Russian Su 30MKIs, the depletion process of IAF squadrons is continuing.
Notably, in 2007, the requirement for IAF was put at 126 plus 63 options (189) but their acquisition process under the MMRCA competition was scrapped in 2015 over price differences with the French Dassault whose Rafale was selected in 2012 against Eurofighter in the finals.
The government then opted for a small number of 36 aircraft, or two squadrons, in 2015 for nearly Euro 8 billion inclusive of about Euro two billion for India-specific modifications and missiles as part of the package.
Air Marshal VK Jimmy Bhatia (Retd), former Commander in Chief of the Western Air Command (WAC) and Air Marshal Ashok Goel (Retd), former Director General Inspection, say the Government should work towards both numbers and timelines. IAF needs to modernise 20 squadrons, or roughly 400 aircraft, as the need of the hour. An IAF fighter squadron, or Unit Establishment, has 18 aircraft for combat missions, and another two for training. At least three more are kept for Maintenance Reserve and Strike off Wastage (MRSOW).
Notably, the acquisition process in India takes five to seven years, and that has to be factored in while planning for new jets. An IAF proposal to upgrade some 100 1970s-generation Jaguars with more powerful Honeywell engines and better avionics to extend their lives by 10 to 15 years is also pending for rather long in the Ministry of Defence.
IAF’s operational strength of combat jets is around 700 aircraft, including the older Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguars. Its 25 to 30 year old Mig-29 and Mirage 2000 are however under upgrade, the latter by HAL in collaboration with the French Dassault, Safran and Thales which together make the Rafale.
Both the IAF and Navy are looking for 4.5gen capabilities, that is what was stipulated for MMRCA, and plus in newer technologies, to keep up with the developments after 2007.
Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had told India Strategic that Boeing, Saab and Lockheed Martin had had made “unsolicited” offers under Make in India programme. Dassault and even Eurofighter could do the same and it would be up to the Government to consider them.
All the five manufacturers took part in the aborted MMRCA competition along with Russian Mig 35.
The navy apparently needs twin engine aircraft, and if they are to be made in India, then some commonality with IAF is required.
IAF needs a combination of both.
On the other hand, single engine jets are much cheaper to buy and operate, and if the aircraft are needed in large numbers, then the overall price will matter a lot. India’s Ministry of Defence has a tough choice, but one hopes for early decisions.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/01/dogfight-over-security-of-indian-skies.html
 

Ved

New Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
37
Likes
17
Will we get choice of weapons of any origin if either of F16 or Gripen is selected? US would not agree for source codes of their AESA radar I believe. This is their limitation.

It will be interesting if SAAB would provide complete ToT of their AESA radar including source codes. It is doubtful too.

The recent RFQ or RFI by HAL for AESA radars for Tejas raises the same obvious question regarding complete ToT of AESA radars with source codes.

Who is willing to transfer what will be the key to decide which single engine fighter will get the contract.
 

WolfPack86

New Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,571
Likes
16,993
Country flag
F-16 Vs Gripen: Choice For Next Made In India Single Engine Fighter Jet Narrows Down To Two

Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar on Tuesday said a new line of production for single-engine fighter jets will be started in India under the Strategic Partnership model. Discussions on Strategic Partnership are in the final stage and will likely to be concluded by the end of January.
According to Industry experts, Parrikar’s announcement cuts down the competition to just two fighters - Lockheed Martin’s F-16 (Block 70) and Gripen E by SAAB. Both Lockheed Martin and SAAB have offered to move production lines to India and manufacture the aircraft in the country. Parrikar said few of the initial aircraft may come off the shelf but the “rest would be made in India increasing the Indian capability in aviation”.
This comes shortly after former Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said the 36 Rafale jets bought by India were not enough and more aircraft were needed in the medium weight category. According to Raha, India will need at least 200 more fighter aircraft in the next ten years.
Indian Air Force (IAF) is still nowhere close to operating the number of fighter jets it needs and has effectively lost its edge over Pakistan. IAF currently operates just 33 squadrons against a sanctioned strength of around 42 squadrons. The new single-engine fighter aircraft will fill the gap between the heavy, air superiority Su-30MKIs and India's indigenously manufactured Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.
Talking about Tejas, Parrikar said the navy will continue supporting the development of the naval version of the aircraft. As Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba informed earlier, it will just be a technology demonstrator and will not be operated by the navy. This confirms that the Indian Navy will float a separate competition for its own future (two engine) fighter.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/01/f16-vs-gripen-choice-for-next-made-in.html
 

WolfPack86

New Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,571
Likes
16,993
Country flag
Is India Buying 200 F-16 Fighter Jets?

India’s Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar announced on Tuesday that the government is finalizing guidelines for a global bid to select a new Western single-engine fighter jet for the Indian Air Force.
Speaking at a news conference in New Delhi on January 3, the defense minister said that the guidelines for a strategic partnership model under the framework of the Defense Procurement Procedure 2016 are “in the final discussion stage” and could be approved by the end of the month, according to The Hindu.
The Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) is slated to issue global competitive bids for 200 Western single engine fighter jets to be made in India. The strategic partnership model aims to facilitate the fast selection of domestic partners for the co-production of the new aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.
In October 2016, India already issued a Request for Information (RFI) to global aircraft manufacturers alerting international suppliers that there will be a new competition for a medium weight combat aircraft.
In late December, now retired Air Chief Marshall Arup Raha said that the service needs to add 200 to 250 new aircraft in the medium-weight fighter jet category to maintain its edge over China and Pakistan in the event of a conflict (See: “India: Air Force Chief Wants 200-250 New Combat Aircraft”).
The defense minister made clear that the Indian Air Force requires another single-engine fighter jet other than the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), a multirole light fighter aircraft which has been under development by the Aeronautical Development Agency in cooperation with HAL since 1983.
“The second line of single engine (fighter plane) is also required for which we are looking at the strategic partner route and very soon once the strategic partner chapter is finalized we should start moving in that direction,” Parrikar said at the press conference The Economic Times reports. “During the current year the decision…should be tentatively over. May be few of them will come in ready-made status but the rest will be made in India.”
The defense minister’s announcement for now rules out double engine aircraft like the F/A 18 Super Hornet by Boeing and the Rafale by Dassault Aviation. Indeed, India has already received proposals from Lockheed Martin to build the F-16 Block 70 and Saab Gripen E fighter aircraft locally. It is likely that the Indian government will select one of the two Western-made single engine fighter jets.
The final selection will depend on “who gives the best offer, transfer of technology and many other things and price. Weightage will be given to both,” Parrikar said. He also noted that the selection will occur through normal process and government- to-government contract: “[The] government-to-government agreement will be a protective umbrella agreement, while the actual dealing will be with the company.”
Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Dassault Rafale, however, could still be in the runs to become the mainstay of Indian naval aviation. As I explained elsewhere: “Representatives of French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation pitched the naval version of the Dassault Rafale twin-engine, fourth generation multirole fighter to the Indian Navy in early 2016. (The United States has been quietly pushing Lockheed Martin’s F-35c Lightning II and McDonnell Douglas F/A 18 Hornets).”
Given the Indian Navy’s preference to install a catapult assisted take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) aircraft launch system on its new carriers will make it unlikely that the new ship will carry lighter Russian-made MiG-29K Fulcrum fighter jets (See: “Confirmed: India’s Next Aircraft Carrier Will Be Nuclear”). Meanwhile, India will continue to test the naval version of the Tejas LCA as a technology demonstrator, although the Indian Navy has already ruled out the aircraft for its new carrier class.
The final government-to-government deal for the new IAF single engine fighter jet is expected to be inked in 2021.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/01/is-india-buying-200-f-16-fighter-jets.html
 

harsh

New Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
319
Likes
437
Country flag
Another single engine fighter to be made in India: Parrikar

Cutting down competition as of now to just two fighters -- F-16 by Lockheed Martin and Gripen by Saab -- Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Tuesday said India will select one more single engine aircraft other than Tejas for indigenous manufacture under 'Make in India' route.

His making it clear that the aircraft would be single engine means that double engine aircraft like F/A 18 by Boeing and Rafale by Dassault Aviation, both preparing for India's next round of multi-billion deal for fighters, are out of the race.

Just-retired Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha had said India required about 200 medium weight category aircraft besides the 36 Rafale fighters.

Parrikar also made it clear that navy will continue supporting the development of naval version of Tejas but the current one will be just a technology demonstrator. He said that the navy is seeking a double engine aircraft.

He said when India decides to go for a twin-engine fighter to be made here, the government will also consider the Rafale.

But as of now there are no plans to procure any additional aircraft, he added.

Talking about the next fighter competition of India, Parrikar said the need for a second production line for single engine aircraft is felt besides the one for Tejas.


"The second line of single engine requirement is also felt for which we are thinking of using the strategic partnership route," he said.

The defence minister said once the chapter on strategic partnership is finalised this month, his ministry will start moving in the direction of single engine fighter aircraft.

He said by the end of this year, decisions on the next aircraft should be tentatively finished.

Parrikar said few of the initial aircraft may come off the shelf by the "rest would be made in India increasing the Indian capability in aviation".

He said the process for the next fighter aircraft will include both selection through normal process and government-to-government contract.

"Selection of the local partner would be through a transparent and well defined process," he said, adding that capabilities and financial strength would also be looked into.

"Once you select the local partner, the OEM obviously will be selected through a process of the way we do it. It means who gives the best offer, Transfer of Technology and many other things and price. There will be weightage to both to both," he said.

Parrikar added that once the company is selected, there will be a government-to-government contract to ensure that the other government stands guarantee to the promises made by the firm in terms of technology transfer and other issues.


http://m.rediff.com/news/report/ano...ter-to-be-made-in-india-parrikar/20170104.htm
 

Rahul Singh

New Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
"The second line of single engine requirement is also felt for which we are thinking of using the strategic partnership route," he said.
A concealed entry of some strategically important ToTs packed in a box with label saying "a single engine fighter". F-16XX coming all the way.

100 F-16s won't hurt but 200 will kill Tejas. I am sure government is smart enough to know this.
 
Last edited:

Tactical Frog

New Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2016
Messages
1,542
Likes
2,279
Country flag
Two thing beats me.

First thing : MMRCA trials put Eurofighter and Rafale ahead of F16 and Gripen in terms of performance. Now MoD considers a new competition between two inferior solutions for IAF. Why not stick with original MMRCA plan or at least an 80-90 Rafale force ?

Second thing : India has on the drawing board a potential competitor to both F-16 and Gripen, namely the Tejas Mk II. Buying either F-16 or Gripen is sending the wrong message : we don't trust our own products.
 

wuzetian

New Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
194
Likes
166
A concealed entry of some strategically important ToTs packed in a box with label saying "a single engine fighter". F-16XX coming all the way.

100 F-16s won't hurt but 200 will kill Tejas. I am sure government is smart enough to know this.
What could be those concealed technologies from F-16 ?? IRST technology? Conformal fuel tanks? Highly Enriched Uranium marine nuclear reactors
 

Rahul Singh

New Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
What could be those concealed technologies from F-16 ?? IRST technology? Conformal fuel tanks? Highly Enriched Uranium marine nuclear reactors
Green is could be, red is should be. But key technologies that i am expecting is EMLS and turbofan tech (won't be 100 % of it but whatever it will be, will be greater than what we have). Besides a strengthened strategic partnership for (now) a very dynamic geopolitical world.
 

Rahul Singh

New Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
Two thing beats me.

First thing : MMRCA trials put Eurofighter and Rafale ahead of F16 and Gripen in terms of performance. Now MoD considers a new competition between two inferior solutions for IAF. Why not stick with original MMRCA plan or at least an 80-90 Rafale force ?
Idea is to buy fillers and invest the money saved into real future which is AMCA.

Second thing : India has on the drawing board a potential competitor to both F-16 and Gripen, namely the Tejas Mk II. Buying either F-16 or Gripen is sending the wrong message : we don't trust our own products.
Tejas MK-2 though similar in performance to Gripen E but short of F-16 in range and payload. But still a valid question. Answer to which is not that clear but translucent enough to get a hint. India is looking to build a strategic partnership with USA and purchase of F-16 is a sacrifice. Apart from it there is understanding that manufacturing another proven single engine platform simultaneously to that of Tejas will perfect the existing aerospace ecosystem, specially in domain of production. Also, there is necessity of a 120KN class engine for AMCA which we think can be developed with necessary help from USA. All in all, If this deal is exactly how it sounds then we are getting more than mere F-16s. Most of them are critical for many of our future projects.
 
Last edited:

airtel

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
3,430
Likes
7,815
Country flag
Also, there is necessity of a 120KN class engine for AMCA which we think can be developed with necessary help from USA. All in all, If this deal is exactly how it sounds then we are getting more than mere F-16s. Most of them are critical for many of our future projects.

AMCA is a 25 tonne class Fighter jet ...............same as Rafale or Typhoon .

does it need two 120 Kn Engines ? we can use GE414 =98 kn or improved kaveri with 100kn thrust .

however we need American help in many other 5th gen. technologies ..................which only USA can provide .
 

square

Strategic Issues
New Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
1,636
Likes
1,464
AMCA is a 25 tonne class Fighter jet ...............same as Rafale or Typhoon .

does it need two 120 Kn Engines ? we can use GE414 =98 kn or improved kaveri with 100kn thrust .

however we need American help in many other 5th gen. technologies ..................which only USA can provide .
thats a valid point , but could drdo/iaf had other specifications.
 

wuzetian

New Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
194
Likes
166
AMCA is a 25 tonne class Fighter jet ...............same as Rafale or Typhoon .

does it need two 120 Kn Engines ? we can use GE414 =98 kn or improved kaveri with 100kn thrust .

however we need American help in many other 5th gen. technologies ..................which only USA can provide .
Americans can't be expected to provide crucial technologies. They had an agreement with South Koreans for the KFX 5th gen fighter project , but finally they refused to share crucial technologies like IRST etc
http://www.forbes.com/sites/donald...-of-making-its-own-kfx-fighter/#5aa2e2fa1bea
 

indiazain

New Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2016
Messages
251
Likes
404
Country flag
I dont know why the IAF is hell bent on a single engine platform when they have tajas and can easily develop and enhance its existing capabilities.36 Rafael can be made into about 70 Rafael as a stop gap. su 30 MKI to super Sukhoi and work on more modern platforms such as amca and t50. To me personally F16 is pure junk whatever block since they are no match when compared to a fully capable F35 .Junk f16s are sold to UAE airforce . Why dont they simply offer us a production line of f35 (i know this will not happen).Gripen will be good however as will have access to a state of the art avionics which can be transferred to tajas and at the same time the Americans will not be all that pissed as the engine is from GE.
 

Tactical Frog

New Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2016
Messages
1,542
Likes
2,279
Country flag
Gripen looks awesome and the Swedes videos are awesomely cool to watch :)

But in the end 2 Rafale = 3 Gripen

Rafale will carry more AAM, more AGM , and strike deeper than Gripen no matter how you look at it.
And then again adding another type to IAF inventory is adding another animal in the zoo. New logistic chain, new simulators for training,

It seems Raha was fond of Gripen. Let's see if Dhanoa shares the same fondness !
 

WolfPack86

New Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
10,571
Likes
16,993
Country flag
I dont know why the IAF is hell bent on a single engine platform when they have tajas and can easily develop and enhance its existing capabilities.36 Rafael can be made into about 70 Rafael as a stop gap. su 30 MKI to super Sukhoi and work on more modern platforms such as amca and t50. To me personally F16 is pure junk whatever block since they are no match when compared to a fully capable F35 .Junk f16s are sold to UAE airforce . Why dont they simply offer us a production line of f35 (i know this will not happen).Gripen will be good however as will have access to a state of the art avionics which can be transferred to tajas and at the same time the Americans will not be all that pissed as the engine is from GE.
Then we must replace GE engines with Kaveri engines in Gripen fighter . France offered to help us to finish kaveri engines within 18 months.
 

Mikesingh

New Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
7,353
Likes
30,450
Country flag
The article says that the Gripen E is a spectacular machine that could hold its own against the PAK-FA.

Seriously? :confused1:
 

IndianHawk

New Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
9,058
Likes
37,675
Country flag
The article says that the Gripen E is a spectacular machine that could hold its own against the PAK-FA.

Seriously? :confused1:
Paid article :biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:
 

Articles

Top