High Speed Railway Corridor

[archie]

From wikipedia

"The maximum operating speed is 320 km/h (200 mph) (on a 387.5 km section of the Tōhoku Shinkansen). Test runs have reached 443 km/h (275 mph) for conventional rail in 1996, and up to a world record 581 km/h (361 mph) for maglev trains in 2003"

Records are a diffrent story Further Transportation Industry has to move forward... we have to pay a lot because Indian railways did not invest in to make it better in speed / comfort in the last 20 years..

Bringing in Bullet trains will also make airlines offer better facilities and lower cost or airlines will milk us.. Anyone Remember the times when a ticket to Delhi could cost 15k or more?

 

[pmaitra]

Making a high speed train investment does not mean you create tracks which a completely diffrent it only means you used better tracks and account for signalling system that allows sustanined high speed trains... this system is very much needed as this will also bring in High speed frieght movemnent (where most of the money is made for Indian Railways) its not always passengers ..

We don't need any significant improvement in tracks. We need improvement in bogie technology. One of the major challenges to high speed trains is with the conical wheels and the associated lateral space that are meant to handle curves. In case of high speed trains, this is going to cause lateral lurching and result in derailment. Some CLW made WAP series locomotives are capable of >200 kmph speeds, but we do not have suitable bogies.

 

[Mad Indian]

You are actually supporting my argument. European distances are small and hence value for high speed travel.

Who sits for 2 days in the train? People who cannot afford a flight i.e. people who cannot afford 4000-5000rs going from Delhi to Bangalore. Now how does a fast train helps if its cost remain ~5000rs? I do not have problem with fast trains but with bullet trains that need dedicated tracks. And given the cost of bullet trains they cannot be poor man's bulk transportation.

I don't know how you came up with cost and ROI figures. Fuel costs are substantial part of flight traffic but that would be true for any transportation medium.

The only way I see bullet trains being commercially viable is if the petroleum prices skyrocket and we are forced to use as little of it as possible and hence forcing us to go nuclear generated cheap electricity driven bullet trains. Even then, I am not saying bullet train costs will come down, only that airway tickets prices will go up to make the bullet trains more economically viable.

I think the reason for the present cost effectiveness of the aircraft comes from the fact that the air density at 15-30 km is very low thus offering lower resistance to high speed travel at that altitude compared to the bullet trains . This physics is not going to change and that is why I think bullet trains wont be economically feasible for anytime soon

 

[archie]

The so-called bullet trains will work viably if

a. Distances are in the range of 500-600 km that translate into effective journey time of 2-2.5 hours

and

b. There is substantial business traffic to support allow for high occupancy.

In other words,they will be profitable between cities where one may expect a large number of travellers to frequently move back and forth preferably in the same day.

Now which cities in India can sufficiently satisfy this criteria?

Typically long distance High speed trains Act like multiple short distance trains.. Chennai - Delhi Line will essentially act like

Delhi- Agra
Agra -Bhopal
Bhopal- Vijayawada
Vijayawada-Chennai
And vise versa

Interconnecting the major metro centers is what is being envisaged making people and material move faster and The corridors chosen is Prudent.. if someone says connect Srinagar and Kanyakumari with High speed thats waste of money

 

[Kay]

The fastest trains in the world can be levitation-based, tunneled, and operating in absolute/partial vacuum. Then there is the hyper-loop concept by Elon Musk, again operating in near vacuum. Then there is standard western levitation. There are non-levitation no-fish-plate welded rails fast trains. There s the discarded French hovercraft style aero-train and the Japanese ground-effect train. Even among high-speed train, the rail gauges vary. So, there are plenty of technologies to choose from.
GOI has only plans to incrementally increase speed.
The Japanese ground-effect train is very promising for its low cost of track maintenance and running. Hope GOI looks into it.

 

[archie]

We don't need any significant improvement in tracks. We need improvement in bogie technology. One of the major challenges to high speed trains is with the conical wheels and the associated lateral space that are meant to handle curves. In case of high speed trains, this is going to cause lateral lurching and result in derailment. Some CLW made WAP series locomotives are capable of >200 kmph speeds, but we do not have suitable bogies.

Thats Exactly the point .. the Infrastructure is needed .. WAP maybe capable of that speed (Not sustained) Energy spent to counter airfriction and assocated losses make it inefficient at that speed . thats why the aerodynamic train sets are needed to make it efficient . Conical wheels along with welded tracks with safe banking gradients during turns with rail crossings that are secued .. These not available in the current system makes so much that Indian Railways have been neglected for so long..

To point a few .. We have technology avaiable to track a car anywhere any place.. still none of the trains are updated to fleet managemet systems / Central Rail monitoring systems nor colision avoidance systems .. all thse tecnologies will be by products if we start investing for bullet trains then will naturally follow down to other routes

 

[mayfair]

Typically long distance High speed trains Act like multiple short distance trains.. Chennai - Delhi Line will essentially act like

Delhi- Agra
Agra -Bhopal
Bhopal- Vijayawada
Vijayawada-Chennai
And vise versa

Interconnecting the major metro centers is what is being envisaged making people and material move faster and The corridors chosen is Prudent.. if someone says connect Srinagar and Kanyakumari with High speed thats waste of money

That is correct. Indeed worldwide, HSRs are envisaged like that. But as you say the corridors need to be prudent. For instance, Delhi-Pune via Ahmedabad-Mumbai will be prudent, but extending it to Bangalore may not be, even though these are major centres because of the lack of substantial traffic in the intervening sections.

Take the example of the Delhi-Chennai line you've posted above. The middle section, Agra to Viajyawada via Bhopal is unlikely to attract major business traffic. Chennai-Hyderabad on the other hand, will be a money spinner from the word go.

 

[pmaitra]

Thats Exactly the point .. the Infrastructure is needed .. WAP maybe capable of that speed (Not sustained) Energy spent to counter airfriction and assocated losses make it inefficient at that speed . thats why the aerodynamic train sets are needed to make it efficient . Conical wheels along with welded tracks with safe banking gradients during turns with rail crossings that are secued .. These not available in the current system makes so much that Indian Railways have been neglected for so long..

To point a few .. We have technology avaiable to track a car anywhere any place.. still none of the trains are updated to fleet managemet systems / Central Rail monitoring systems nor colision avoidance systems .. all thse tecnologies will be by products if we start investing for bullet trains then will naturally follow down to other routes

We need less conical wheels, that are almost flat. On top of that, we need axle-less bogies. Check out the Talgo technology. We already have welded tracks. WAP series is capable of sustained speeds of above 200 kmph with short trains. This is achieved by changing the gearing ratios of the newest WAG series locomotives.

 

[archie]

That is correct. Indeed worldwide, HSRs are envisaged like that. But as you say the corridors need to be prudent. For instance, Delhi-Pune via Ahmedabad-Mumbai will be prudent, but extending it to Bangalore may not be, even though these are major centres because of the lack of substantial traffic in the intervening sections.

Take the example of the Delhi-Chennai line you've posted above. The middle section, Agra to Viajyawada via Bhopal is unlikely to attract major business traffic. Chennai-Hyderabad on the other hand, will be a money spinner from the word go.

The Answer to which route is profitable is obtained by simple ticket sales statistics with additional 20% due to interst generated .. By the way Chennai -Delhi has 3 trains currently 3 Super fast and one normal..(Rajdani,Duronto, Tamilnadu Express, GT) Every day Do you really think its not profitable?? and if you need tickets in anyone of them better be atleast 2-3 weeks in advance that is not counting pass through of Madurai delhi and few more weekly ones

Chennai Banglore same situation
3 Morning Trains(one Double Decker) alone starting from chennai.. and Night trains Shathabdi runs twice in one direction everyday

Its one of the most profitable routes with lot of software people travelling between the two centers

full list 23 trains
MAS / Chennai to SBC / Bangalore City - 22 Trains - India Rail Info - A Busy Junction for Travellers & Rail Enthusiasts

The Golden Quad is a very very profitable and buisness oriented traffic .. This rail plan to me seems the Most prudent .. Just hoping they implement it proper .. since the devil lies in the implementation

By the way Andhra's new capital is expected around that region.. im sure that region is going have a lot more growth

 

[archie]

We need less conical wheels, that are almost flat. On top of that, we need axle-less bogies. Check out the Talgo technology. We already have welded tracks. WAP series is capable of sustained speeds of above 200 kmph with short trains. This is achieved by changing the gearing ratios of the newest WAG series locomotives.

I am aware of conical Wheels and stability

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZfikEpxO0k

All stretches are not welded tracks yet.. You can easily make it out by the rythm when you travel on trains. The chunk-clunk sound is when the wheels jump the distance between the rails.. thats just few mm accross but enough tp cause a small drop in height and flex when the weight of the train passes.. to have Proper high speed all the aspects of it has to be controlled along with mastering of wheel dynamics.. We are just starting to do that like the part of the network that is cleared to run at 160Km there are still lot of places where is speed is limited you can identify that by the speed boards on the railway network Like Turnouts where its limited to 30-40 Km/hr.

Any Train is capable of that speed based on gearing ratio.. WAP has close to 7000 HP and max speed of 180 Thats not sustained(most efficient) its most efficent probably is around 140 ish and the spped will be affected based on crosswind and other factors.. A proper train set will be able to handle all that

 

[pmaitra]

Any Train is capable of that speed based on gearing ratio.. WAP has close to 7000 HP and max speed of 180 Thats not sustained(most efficient) its most efficent probably is around 140 ish and the spped will be affected based on crosswind and other factors.. A proper train set will be able to handle all that

You are talking about WAP7, which is a modified version of WAG9. WAG9's gear ratios were modified to have a sustained speed of 184 kmph with 20+ coaches. The gear ratios can be modified to have a sustained speed of >200 kmph with a shorter rake.

 

[Barak2]

I am sure that would be an amazing thing especially for tourists. You have shared such an useful thing surely.

 

[shekhar]

Population matters less than money. Chennai-Bangalore is feasible. So is Mumbai-Pune. These routes which are in the map and have "high population" are very poor and though they can generate the highest rail traffic in the country for Indian railways, they are not capable of patronizing expensive bullet trains.

If only population is issue...thn...why not in bihar & UP

 

[Rashna]

Written by Avishek G Dastidar | New Delhi | Published on:April 13, 2015
India will have to spend approximately Rs 1 lakh crore for its first bullet train corridor between Mumbai and Ahmedabad, preparatory work for which has gained speed.

In its latest interim report submitted last week, Japan has factored in the cost escalation through the years that it will take to finish the project. The amount, around Rs 98,000 crore, could rise a bit more.

Based on estimates from the Japanese team working on the feasibility study for the proposed 550-km corridor, Railways has circulated a 21-page inter-ministerial concept note detailing the way it intends to go about implementing the project.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/bullet-train-project-to-cost-rs-1-lakh-cr/

 

[Ankit Purohit]

who will take care of following??

terrorist
cow
buffalo
rickshaw wala
dog
tractor trolley
drugi bus wala


so not possible in India

Paji Nothing is Impossible .

 

[Anikastha]

they will give it to private players,also high speed rails.state might not have that amount of money

It needs robust Infrastructure. We are not able take care of present railways how can we play with bullet trains?
Ok instead of developing infrastructure of BT we can connect N-E regions with best road and rail services.Have you ever been to Shimla?? My god most dangerous roads in the world.

 

[cobra commando]

NEW DELHI: The project to bring bullet trains to India was on the right track and the government was also trying to increase the speed of express trains, Railway Minister Suresh Prabhu said on Thursday. "Bullet train is one big project that we are working on Feasibility studies are being done for Ahmedabad-Mumbai route with the help of Japan and Delhi- Chennai route with the help of China. The project is on the right track," Prabhu said at the 'Manthan' conclave organised by Aaj Tak here. He, however, added that such big projects take time as a lot of investment and technical expertise is required. Prabhu said his government was also working on a plan to improve speed of all kinds of trains, besides improving schedule of freight trains that was the backbone of Indian Railways. "For freight, which gives two- thirds of our revenues, we are building dedicated freight corridor that will not only improve our income but also decongest our tracks, thus leading to more efficiency," he added. The minister said apart from modernisation of India's railway network, the focus was also on providing better amenities to almost three crore passengers that use railways every day. "We have also created a customer service portal through which passengers can get their grievances redressed while accountability of our staff will also be fixed," he added.

Bullet Trains Project on Right Track, Says Railway Minister

 

[nimo_cn]

NEW DELHI: The project to bring bullet trains to India was on the right track and the government was also trying to increase the speed of express trains, Railway Minister Suresh Prabhu said on Thursday. "Bullet train is one big project that we are working on Feasibility studies are being done for Ahmedabad-Mumbai route with the help of Japan and Delhi- Chennai route with the help of China. The project is on the right track," Prabhu said at the 'Manthan' conclave organised by Aaj Tak here. He, however, added that such big projects take time as a lot of investment and technical expertise is required. Prabhu said his government was also working on a plan to improve speed of all kinds of trains, besides improving schedule of freight trains that was the backbone of Indian Railways. "For freight, which gives two- thirds of our revenues, we are building dedicated freight corridor that will not only improve our income but also decongest our tracks, thus leading to more efficiency," he added. The minister said apart from modernisation of India's railway network, the focus was also on providing better amenities to almost three crore passengers that use railways every day. "We have also created a customer service portal through which passengers can get their grievances redressed while accountability of our staff will also be fixed," he added.

Bullet Trains Project on Right Track, Says Railway Minister

why is India letting Japan and China to do the feasiblity study instead of doing it on your own?

it may save you some mony, but is it wise to have such an important job done by some foreign companies?

来自我的 HUAWEI P7-L07 上的 Tapatalk

 

[ezsasa]

why is India letting Japan and China to do the feasiblity study instead of doing it on your own?

it may save you some mony, but is it wise to have such an important job done by some foreign companies?

来自我的 HUAWEI P7-L07 上的 Tapatalk

Because we don't have expertise on this subject and money is not an issue. This protocol of getting it done by foreign companies has been done in all greenfield projects. Delhi metro for example was a collaboration, but other metros are domestic.

 

[Rowdy]

why is India letting Japan and China to do the feasiblity study instead of doing it on your own?

it may save you some mony, but is it wise to have such an important job done by some foreign companies?

来自我的 HUAWEI P7-L07 上的 Tapatalk

apart from the above point, it may be that YOUR technology needs some parameters that ONLY you can understand, like terrain etc. So you can do the report and we can decide if India can afford it or not.