F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[Blackwater]

I thought they will buy JF-17 lufunder,they are on 50% discount. BTW did they take permission from there master Pakistan to buy from ammerica

 

[ejazr]

I thought they will buy JF-17 lufunder,they are on 50% discount. BTW did they take permission from there master Pakistan to buy from ammerica

huh? Turkey already singed agreements back in 2007 to produces F-35 center fuselages under license from LM and an agreement to be a L3 partner along with Australia, Cannada and a few other countries. This is not an unexpected news given this background.

And Turkey is a NATO alliance partner and has the biggest NATO contingent of troops in Afghanistan after US and UK. While it has an uneasy relationship with China over the East-Turkic/Uighur population and its treatment which is a major voter issue in Turkey.

Its mainly Pakistanis dreaming that Turkey will be buying JF-17s while the reality is that the Turks probably aren't saying an outright no so as to not hurt their sensibilities. If you have a production license for F-35s INSIDE Turkey, it would be unlikely to expect Turks to purchase JF-17s from Pakistan let alone China.

 

[noob101]

huh? Turkey already singed agreements back in 2007 to produces F-35 center fuselages under license from LM and an agreement to be a L3 partner along with Australia, Cannada and a few other countries. This is not an unexpected news given this background.

And Turkey is a NATO alliance partner and has the biggest NATO contingent of troops in Afghanistan after US and UK. While it has an uneasy relationship with China over the East-Turkic/Uighur population and its treatment which is a major voter issue in Turkey.

Its mainly Pakistanis dreaming that Turkey will be buying JF-17s while the reality is that the Turks probably aren't saying an outright no so as to not hurt their sensibilities. If you have a production license for F-35s INSIDE Turkey, it would be unlikely to expect Turks to purchase JF-17s from Pakistan let alone China.

Why in the world would anyone buy jf 17 over F 35, even the pakistanis know that!

 

[Zebra]

[h=2]Turkey Authorizes Initial Purchase of 2 F-35s[/h]
By UMIT ENGINSOY and BURAK EGE BEKDIL , Published: 5 Jan 2012 16:21


ANKARA - Turkey's top decision-making body Jan. 5 paved the way for the country's formal participation in a U.S.-led program for the production of next-generation F-35 Lightning II fighter aircraft.
"The Defense Industry Executive Committee has authorized the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries [SSM] to conduct talks for the aircraft's purchase order," the committee said in a statement after its meeting. The committee's members include Prime Minister Recep Tayyip ErdoÄŸan, Defense Minister Ä°smet Yilmaz, Chief of the General Staff Gen. Necdet Ozel and procurement chief Murad Bayar.

SSM and Lockheed Martin, the plane's main manufacturer, now are expected to sign a formal document for Turkey's purchase order for a first batch of two F-35s. This decision enables Turkey to begin the reception of the aircraft in 2015.
Turkey is a member of the F-35 consortium, but until Jan. 5 had not been committed officially to buy the aircraft. Turkey plans eventually to operate about 100 aircraft. Other members of the consortium include the United States, Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Norway and Denmark.
Other countries have interest in the aircraft but are not part of the consortium, including Israel. A recent decision by Japan to buy the F-35 has been a major boost for the program. Japan and Israel are expected to receive deliveries as of 2016.
The committee also has chosen the U.S. Bell Helicopter Textron as the main producer of the Turkish police's next light helicopter type.
The committee's decision came at a time when the Turkish police are preparing to assume a larger role in the fight against the outlawed separatist Kurdistan Workers Party. The Security Directorate will buy up to 15 light helicopters, worth up to $100 million, in a first batch to bolster the force's capabilities.
Bell was competing against Italy's AgustaWestland and Eurocopter Deutschland, the Eurocopter's German arm.
Bell later is expected to lead the manufacture for the Turkish police of more light helicopters in planned follow-up batches. The company also is expected to cooperate in the production with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), Turkey's state-owned aerospace company.
The Turkish Security Directorate's helicopter fleet is primarily composed of U.S.-made MD600 light helicopters, which are getting older and more difficult to operate. The new light helicopters should be more effective at police tasks such as tracking suspected criminals and intervening in incidents that could erupt during mass demonstrations, industry sources said.
The committee also decided that SSM would buy 10 Anka UAVs from TAI. After the first three tests ended with crash landings, the final three flight tests were successful. TAI would have delivered three Ankas to the military this year, but the committee's decision paves the way for serial production of 10 platforms.

Turkey Authorizes Initial Purchase of 2 F-35s - Defense News

 

[asianobserve]

[h=1]USMC's First 2 F-35Bs Arrive at Eglin AFB.[/h]
http://defensetech.org/2012/01/11/usmcs-first-f-35b-jsfs-arrive-at-eglin/

 

[Zebra]

Norway, Netherlands Look to F-35 Cooperation

By DAVE MAJUMDAR and MARCUS WEISGERBER , Published: 12 Jan 2012 18:13

European nations that expect to buy F-35 Joint Strike Fighters are looking to jointly train crews and maintain and upgrade aircraft, much as some countries that fly F-16s do.

Various governments are already meeting to discuss a "smart defense" program built around the new Lockheed Martin jet, Norway Defense Minister Espen Barth Eide said Jan. 12 at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

Potential partners include Italy and Turkey, but the nations' varying purchase schedules make coordination difficult, Barth Eide said.

Still, other countries share Norway's vision.

"I have asked Denmark and Norway to think about cooperation regarding the fighter plane that will replace our F-16," Netherlands Defense Minister H.E. Hans Hillen said the same day at the Atlantic Council.

"By doing so, we, the three countries, can build on the existing cooperation between F-16 nations that are also considering the Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35, as its successor," Hillen said. "So we can hopefully continue to achieve higher levels of cooperation in the fields of acquisition, maintenance and perhaps even in the field of operations."

Hillen spoke of potential F-35 partnerships with Italy and Belgium.

"This is one example of how far the Netherlands is prepared to go in cooperation with other countries in order to keep up NATO military capabilities," he said.

Barth Eide said Oslo has made a "decision in principle" to buy four initial F-35s, and plans a fleet of 48.

Norway made a "complex set of simulations" that showed that while conventional non-stealthy aircraft like the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and next-generation Saab Gripen are adequate for wars like Afghanistan where there is a permissive threat environment, only the F-35 was suitable to fight a high-end adversary. Barth Eide, without mentioning a country by name, said that such a high-end threat existed in Norway's vicinity.

"There was only one aircraft that would do," he said.

Barth Eide said that while such a conflict may not be likely, it is still theoretically possible, and as such, Norway needs to invest in weapons that could fight a sophisticated foe.

The concept of "smart defense" - which calls for European nations to pool their resources to become a larger buyer of a particular system, lowering the unit cost - is gaining ground in Europe as defense funding levels decline and other economic problems mount.

But the idea is not new.

Barth Eide cited the F-16 fighter flown by Belgium, Denmark, Portugal, Netherlands and Norway. The governments cooperate extensively on logistics, upgrades and training.

And he said that was simply one example of a host of procurements where Norway is partnering with allied nations.

Barth Eide said the shared experience showed its worth over Libya, where it was apparent which allies regularly trained together. During that campaign, NATO provided air support for Libyan rebels seeking to topple the government.

However, the defense minister said he was not optimistic that "smart defense" could be achieved in the near term because there is an upfront cost. Moreover, it could take more than a decade for the concept to yield dividends, he said.

Norway, Netherlands Look to F-35 Cooperation - Defense News

 

[SpArK]

BAE Systems Taps Australia for Titanium Component of F-35 Jet

Aircraft manufacturer BAE Systems will taps its Australian unit to put in place an aerospace component manufacturing operation in Adelaide which would produce titanium parts for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

The fighter jet, which is being developed in the U.S., will have titanium parts for its vertical tail fin.

The JSF programme is expected to manufacture over 3,000 aircraft in the next five years for the U.S. and other countries. The South Australian (SA) government is supporting BAE Systems Australia's new manufacturing operations expected to be worth $177 million.

As part of the SA support, Premier Jay Weatherill is in Fort Worth, Texas to visit the JSF production plant. He said with the facility to rise in the state, SA will have defence as the foundation of its manufacturing sector which would also generate jobs for highly skilled residents.

The premier added that the new capabilities open more opportunities in aerospace, commercial and defence projects.

To complement the BAE System Australia operations, Rosebank Engineering would put up a specialised metal finishing facility in Adelaide, said SA Defence Industries Minister Jack Snelling. The minister said that the combined capability currently does not exist in Australia.

Mr Snelling added that the establishment of such a capability in Adelaide would provide long-term growth and job security in SA.

The BAE plant will produce thin-wall aerospace components and the Rosebank operation will perform metal finishing processes. The two facilities would be built in Edinburgh Parks.

Besides aircraft, BAE Systems is also a leading provider of soldier protective and load carrying equipment in the U.S. It produces a significant portion of the U.S.'s body armour, tactical vests, combat helmets and load-carrying systems.

Last week, BAE Systems in Phoenix, Arizona received a $15.8-million award from the U.S. Army to produce side ballistic insert plates. The XSBI hard body armour is worn inside a soldier's vest as protection against different ballistic threats. It is worn on both sides of the torso.

BAE Systems has presence in Australia, India, Saudi Arabia, the United Kingdom and U.S. It has customers and partners in over 100 countries.

BAE Systems Taps Australia for Titanium Component of F-35 Jet - International Business Times

 

[Armand2REP]

F-35 Will Miss Acceleration Goal

The F-35 Lightning II's transonic acceleration may not meet the requirements originally set forth for the program, a top Lockheed Martin official said.

"Based on the original spec, all three of the airplanes are challenged by that spec," said Tom Burbage, Lockheed's program manager for the F-35. "The cross-sectional area of the airplane with the internal weapons bays is quite a bit bigger than the airplanes we're replacing."

The sharp rise in wave drag at speeds between Mach 0.8 and Mach 1.2 is one of the most challenging areas for engineers to conquer. And the F-35's relatively large cross-sectional area means, that as a simple matter of physics, the jet can't quite match its predecessors.

"We're dealing with the laws of physics. You have an airplane that's a certain size, you have a wing that's a certain size, you have an engine that's a certain size, and that basically determines your acceleration characteristics," Burbage said. "I think the biggest question is: are the acceleration characteristics of the airplane operationally suitable?"

A recent report by the Defense Department's top tester, J. Michael Gilmore, says that the Navy's F-35C model aircraft, which has larger wing and tail surfaces, is not meeting requirements for acceleration.

F-35 May Miss Acceleration Goal | Gannett Government Media | defensenews.com

 

[trackwhack]

According to plans, by 2035, Six Thousand F 35's are supposed to be in active service. :drunk:

There are several defence contractors on DFI trying to sell the plane to India . As per the latest, the final schedule for the F 35 testing is in 2016 and the Pentagon has pushed the first lot of 176 production F 35's to start in 2017. This is a thread dedicated to the Hanger Queen. Lets see if she makes it. The first in this series is an article on the Time Magazine posted Jan 30th 2012.

No program better illustrates the pathologies of the weapons acquisition process as it is currently practiced by the Military – Industrial – Congressional Complex (MICC) than the entirely predictable, and in this case, predicted, problems dragging the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter into a dead man's spiral.

The F-35 in on track to be the most expensive program in the history of the Defense Department, and it has repeated just about every mistake we invented since Robert McNamara concocted the multimission, multi-service TFX — a program conceived with the same kind of fanciful one-shoe fits all imaginings as the F-35.

Technical problems, cost overruns, and schedule slippages caused the TFX to implode into one of the most infamous debacles in Pentagon's history. The result was the super-costly single-mission (deep strike), single service, swing-wing F-111. Planes were delivered without mission essential avionics and sat on the runway for two years awaiting parts. Production rates were slowed and total production quantities were reduced from 1,500 to 500. That cutback would have worked materially to wreck tactical fighter aviation in the Air Force, had it not been for the intervention of a brilliant iconoclastic band of military officers and civilians, who became known in the Pentagon and industry as the Fighter Mafia (their exploits are described here).

The Fighter Mafia began its operation by saving the F-15 from going down the same pathway to swing-wing oblivion as the F-111, and then conceived the lower cost, high-performance F-16 and the lethal A-10 attack aircraft. Together these three airplanes were produced at sufficiently high production rates to modernize and expand the tactical fighter force in the late 1970s through the mid 1980s — something not achieved by any other major category of force structure. Ironically, the bulk of these airplanes were purchased with money appropriated during the Carter Administration. Costs skyrocketed and production rates declined as soon as the Reagan Administration began to flood money into Pentagon, because the contractors loaded these planes with bells and whistles "¦ and raised prices, sometimes quite arbitrarily, according to official data I assembled while working in the Pentagon in the 1980s.

Today there is no Fighter Mafia to rescue tactical aviation form the predators in the MICC. But the boondoggles remain: Like the ill-fated TFX, the F-35 is planned to be produced in high quantities for all three services. Like the TFX, the future of fighter aviation is dependent on the high F-35 production rates. Like the TFX the F-35 has suffered from chronic requirements creep, technical problems (engineering change proposals are now flooding in like water going over Niagara Falls — an official summary of the current technical problems can be found here). Like the TFX, the F-35 is suffering severe cost overruns, and horrendous schedule slippages as production rates are cut back. And like the TFX, the F-35, now entering its sixth year of low rate production, was put into production way before before its technical/cost problems were solved, a process known as concurrent engineering and manufacturing development that guarantees costly backfits and/or specification relaxations (known in the trade as 'managing to a rubber baseline).

But the F-35 program is not at serious risk, despite all the hysterical hype in the trade press — not by a long shot. The F-35"²s political safety net has been front- loaded and politically engineered (the general practices of the power games are explained here) with exquisite malice of forethought. Domestically, the F-35 employs 130,000 people and 1300 domestic suppliers in 47 states and Puerto Rico. The only states missing the gravy train are Hawaii, Wyoming, and North Dakota. Internationally, there are already cooperative development/production plans involving nine countries, and more are in the offing. Given the intensity of the geographic carpet-bombing of contracts around the globe, can there be any question why the Secretary of the Air Force said in September, ""Simply put, there is no alternative to the F-35 program. It must succeed." If you think that is an accident, dear reader, I have a Brooklyn Bridge to sell you.

I will be writing more about many of these problems in the future, but today I want to concentrate on the gold-plating process at the front the end — by introducing a remarkable discussion of requirements creep.

At issue is the short take off and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35B for the Marine Corps to replace its AV-8B Harrier jump jets and its F-18C/D fighter/bombers. My friend Bob Cox, a senior reporter for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram posted an amazing entry by a serving Marine on his blog. Cox has given me permission to reproduce it below.

In addition to being a thoughtful critique, it is an inspiring example of an officer's integrity on the one hand and a telling discussion of the problems with the basic STOVL requirement the Marine Corps is wedded to, on the other. I have heard many Marines utter similar critiques in hushed tones behind closed doors since the late 1970s, but few have stated them openly. This requirement is not a minor issue, because the STOVL specifications have caused untold compromises in the already heavily compromised F-35 design. After reading it, I urge interested readers to check out commenters' reaction to the Marine's assertions at this link. Attached herewith is Cox's blog entry:

JANUARY 27, 2012
Marine questions value of STOVL jets, Harrier and F-35B
Occasionally someone in the active duty military has the courage to go off the script and say what they really think about their service's dogma and pet projects.
Here's a piece by a Marine aviator questioning the value and purpose of the Marine Corps love and commitment to the STOVL fighter-attack airplane, the Harrier and now the costly and complex F-35B.
Other analysts and experts have said it before, probably some Marines too, but in his blog "Boats Against the Current," Peter J. Munson, an active duty officer and KC-130 commander, lays out much of the case against the F-35B. Marine generals love to argue it gives them the capability to go fight close to the front lines, without air bases, but never bother to add how many truckloads of fuel and supplies and men and defense weaponry will have to be hauled over land to that forward base, and at what cost and vulnerability to enemy attack.
Munson writes:
The Harrier has surely been a large part of Marine aviation since 9/11, but its STOVL characteristics were rarely, if ever, critical to the conduct of operations. If anything, the capability was a liability when it came to the requirement for long on-station times, multiple ordnance options, and tedious scanning of compounds and cities with targeting pods in support of troops on the ground.
While Harriers have conducted some forward rearming and refueling at shorter strips, these were more driven by the Harrier's limitations and the desire to validate its expeditionary capability than a value added to the fight. That is, while a Harrier was rearming and refueling, a Hornet would be overhead, sensor still on target, refueling from a KC-130, more weapons still on the wing.
So, when the program hits a rough spot again, which I think it will, and when the budget adjusters come knocking, the Marine Corps needs to be honest about how much STOVL capability it really needs to maintain its close air support capability aboard amphibious shipping, how soon unmanned aerial systems can fill that gap, and what the best option is for the rest of our close air support needs.
[Back to Cox:]
One can't help but suspect that when former Defense Secretary Bob Gates put the F-35B on probation last January that he had some of these same arguments in mind, but didn't want to fight a war with the Marines in his final months in office. Secretary Panetta last week swooped in and freed the "B," winning friends in USMC HQ and Lockheed Martin, among othe places.
The extraordinary complexity and demands of the F-35B have undoubtedly hampered the whole F-35 problem, creating technical problems and sucking up limited (in Pentagon terms) development dollars and engineering resources. The need to redesign the whole aircraft (all three models) to take out weight was largely an effort to salvage any combat payload for the B-model. Now, with the airframes of early planes showing cracks and wear and tear early in their lives one has to wonder how much of those and future problems will be due to weight reduction for the F-35B.
- Bob Cox

http://battleland.blogs.time.com/2012/01/30/f-35-out-of-altitude-airspeed-and-ideas-but-never-money/

I will update this thread regularly

 

[LurkerBaba]

A similar thread exists http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-air-force/27696-f-35-not-ideal-choice-india-6.html

 

[trackwhack]

A similar thread exists http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-air-force/27696-f-35-not-ideal-choice-india-6.html

Please dont merge it LB, I want this exclusively to record how this junk platform meets its end

 

[KS]

F-35 is junk..? Holy smoke. That is news to me.

It is not suitable for India agreed. But in the hands of USMC, JSDF etc they are one mean deadly machine that can smoke out anything (expect perhaps the Raptor, T-50 when it arrives) out of the sky.

 

[trackwhack]

F-35 is junk..? Holy smoke. That is news to me.

It is not suitable for India agreed. But in the hands of USMC, JSDF etc they are one mean deadly machine that can smoke out anything (expect perhaps the Raptor, T-50 when it arrives) out of the sky.

We shall see if and when it reaches production.

I'm betting an F 22 revival and an SH based system for the CBG's after the F 35 is scrapped/produced in limited numbers.

 

[asianobserve]

That's too speculative to claim that the F-35, which has tied up the future of a lot of major air forces will be scrapped. For some concrete articles on the matter here are some links:

"The Air Force would buy fewer of its new fighter, the F-35, and scrap 92 cargo planes and jets. The Navy would lose seven cruisers." (In other words it will still buy F-35) Defense Secretary Leon Panetta defends a leaner military - ABC News

"Some weapons buys will continue, but be delayed by a few years, notably the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter which is intended to replace most of the fighter jets in the Army, Navy and Marines." Pentagon: Fewer Soldiers, More Drones Will Save Money - ABC News

"Japan's Defense Minister Naoki Tanaka said Friday that he saw no change in the schedule for the United States to deliver its F-35 fighter jets by fiscal 2016 despite U.S. defense spending cuts." Japan confident F-35 jets will be delivered on schedule despite U.S. defense cuts

The point that cannot be overlooked is that the US and other major air forces will not fight future wars with past weapons systems. The USAF cannot sustain its F16 fleet much longer as most of these units are nearing their serviceable lives. The same goes with their allies.

The question is, will the IAF fighter future war with China using large numbers of 4.5 gen fighter (Rafale)?

 

[asianobserve]

(deleted: double post)

 

[KS]

We shall see if and when it reaches production.

I'm betting an F 22 revival and an SH based system for the CBG's after the F 35 is scrapped/produced in limited numbers.

It will arrive. Too much has been invested into it for it NOT to arrive.

F-22s will be revived in a limited way and SH's will be kept as reserves after the Lightening is introduced.

 

[nitesh]

Calling F 35 a junk is bit over kill. We don't know may be we will see it in our carriers too.

 

[Armand2REP]

I would rather have stealth UCAVs than F-35. Far cheaper, safer and just as strike effective.

 

[SpArK]

I would rather have stealth UCAVs than F-35. Far cheaper, safer and just as strike effective.

something like this..

Note: The sight of this in IAF fleet can cause nausea and dizziness for certain geographic region due to its historical interference and operational easeness inside their territory.

 

[pankaj nema]

I dont understand WHY people FORGET The huge waiting list for F 35

S0me 2500 planes have been already ordered

We can surely have the F 35 but in 2030 Not before that