Design and Engineering of Agni VI missile is finished

[AnantS]

Nope India had nuclear weapons in mid 80's. India started producing weapons in mid 80's themselves, program accelerated when China conducted tests for Pakistan in lop nor.

India had its first flower bloom in 1978 and the next in 1998. IIRC from reading somewhere one of the nuke tested in 98 was an old stock...

 

[warrior monk]

All these are built on one thing: you did enough actual tests and collected enough datas.

Actual test has been done what is currently being done is maintaining the plutonium pit in primary , testing of spark plugs in secondary , radiative transfer to the imploding capsule through the hohlraum also secondary , Checking the radiation shield , the tamper (Both fissile and non fissile ) , thermodynamics of radiation inside hohlraum and what kind of material it should be made up off so that it is perfectly opaque etc

Except the secondary problem of ignition all can be tested even without supercomputers in specialised labs . The secondary problem of ignition is highly calculation intensive like fissile core compression , implosion of the fusion fuel increases the density of the fuel mass as measured by neutron collision mean free paths. The neutrons released by the fusion reactions will thus undergo more collisions before they can reach the tamper , the starting of the reaction , the maintenance of radiative energy and shock waves from the primary as radiative energy needs to reach earlier, once the fuel start getting consumed energy is released then this is where the hydrodynamic phenomena begins , the most important part. All of these and more will be completely simulated in the lab and are being done except the hydrodynamic phenomena of implosion of secondary due to ablation heating and compression of tamper which will be done in 5 to 6 years when this ICF facility attains full power .
The only thing which India cannot do without testing is to change the design of warheads for say a megatonne yield weapon without consuming outrageous amount of of fissile material which will make it very very heavy which India cannot deploy .
From the POK1 design 200 kt warheads have already being designed many in number and many more will be made . Our 200 kt warhead will probably weigh 1 tonne or more while US W-88 475 kt warhead weighs 225 kgs only . That is the difference of testing between US and Indian warheads , though US has even larger warheads with increase in staging it will make it even difficult to maintain as simulations go more complicated.

 

[warrior monk]

Assuming your scientists already sort out all the above, you will still got a problem: how to do the service for an aged bomb. You know most of bomb components have been spoiled by radiation in one bomb. Since you don't want to dissemble the whole bomb and re-produce a new one because it will be too damn expensive, the best way is only replacing those serious enough. So, again, you need to actual explode an aged bomb, comparing to the explosion of the new bomb, analysing the results and develop the service procedure. Then exploding a bomb after the service, see if it reach the effectiveness expected. After all these, you now can extend your bomb's life without dissemble it.

Every bomb has an expiry date , nobody can prevent it . its between 30 to 50 years . After 40 years it becomes unreliable no amount of testing will save you and after 50 years you can only pray it doesn't fizzle .

 

[warrior monk]

No, you didn't start building your nuclear weapons until 1998. Before that, all you did was produce all the components necessary for a bomb and stored them as components in laboratory environment.

How did you know , PNE in 74 was an euphemism for non atmospheric testing or underground testing .We were looking for tamper material in early 1980s which can only mean one thing trying to reduce the weight of the already made bombs .

 

[no smoking]

Nope India had nuclear weapons in mid 80's. India started producing weapons in mid 80's themselves, program accelerated when China conducted tests for Pakistan in lop nor.

Do you have any source to support your claiming that India started producing weapons in mid 80's.

 

[no smoking]

Every bomb has an expiry date , nobody can prevent it . its between 30 to 50 years . After 40 years it becomes unreliable no amount of testing will save you and after 50 years you can only pray it doesn't fizzle .

So, now you agree that there is no need to dissemble a nuclear bomb after 12.5 years?

 

[no smoking]

Actual test has been done what is currently being done is maintaining the plutonium pit in primary , testing of spark plugs in secondary , radiative transfer to the imploding capsule through the hohlraum also secondary , Checking the radiation shield , the tamper (Both fissile and non fissile ) , thermodynamics of radiation inside hohlraum and what kind of material it should be made up off so that it is perfectly opaque etc

No one denied that India did actual test. All I am saying is that you need multiple turns of test to perfect your model.
I believe that Indian scientists have created the simulation model on your supercomputer. But no one, include themselves, knows how good this model is because they got only one chance to collect the data and these data are quite doubtful since the test was not 100% successful.

Except the secondary problem of ignition all can be tested even without supercomputers in specialised labs ...... being done except the hydrodynamic phenomena of implosion of secondary due to ablation heating and compression of tamper which will be done in 5 to 6 years when this ICF facility attains full power.

Great, all P5 scientists only started their work on the similar projects after they accumulated 10-20 tests. And it still cost them almost 20 years and at least another 10 tests to set up the equipment. Now, you are telling us that Indian scientists already get enough knowledge about nuclear explosion in one shot and they can build the equipment without further tests?

Our 200 kt warhead will probably weigh 1 tonne or more while US W-88 475 kt warhead weighs 225 kgs only.

That is exactly why we suspect your warhead is atomic bomb instead of hydrogen bomb: too heavy with little power.
Here is some data of Chinese bomb:
The first atomic bomb of 1964: 220kt and weigh 1.55 tones;
The first hydrogen bomb in 1967: 3.3MT and weigh 8 tones;
The second hydrogen bomb in 1968: 2.7MT and weigh 2 tones.

That is the difference of testing between US and Indian warheads , though US has even larger warheads with increase in staging it will make it even difficult to maintain as simulations go more complicated.

Oh, no, that is the difference of accumulated knowledge/experience between US and Indian scientists. All P5 have the lighter MT warhead, i.e, the Megaton warhead on DF31 is around 500kg.

 

[garg_bharat]

@warrior monk, talking about nuclear warheads only causes more confusion. No conclusions can be drawn as no reliable data or information is in public domain.

The only certain thing is that the current government intends to abide by moratorium in tests.

Is it risky not to test? I think there are strategic implications of not testing. By not testing, the Indian government is reducing reliance on nuclear option.

 

[garg_bharat]

I my view, a large and complex country like India should not over-rely on nukes. Our strength is our people. We should do everything to harness our people.

Mass-killing is not Indian culture. Others have done that by India does not believe in such methods.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

It's not just the cities, nuke plants, reactors, missile launch stations, all need to be considered in order to prevent a retaliation.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Yes but they all are in Prithvi's reach. Prithvi with one ton fuel air explosive shall do a wonderful job.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I my view, a large and complex country like India should not over-rely on nukes. Our strength is our people. We should do everything to harness our people.

Mass-killing is not Indian culture. Others have done that by India does not believe in such methods.

Nuclear bombs are not only essential but inevitable as the deterrence.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

The Prithvi-2 (only Prithvi version currently in active service) will be phased out within the end of this decade. For finding it's replacement, the IA/SFC had considered three different missile systems of various types :

1) The PRAHAAR. A non-line of sight battlefield support missile (NLOS-BSM) with a 150km range and a 225kg payload of multiple types (HE, FAE, Incendiary, cluster munitions etc.), the principle use of this system (mounted in 2, 4 or 6-missile configurations respectively on 6x6, 8x8 and 10x10 high-mobility vehicles) was area-saturation. Much like rocket artillery on steroids.

2) The SHAURYA. A quasi-ballistic tactical battlefield missile with variable flight profiles (ballistic, lofted or depressed trajectories) and a minimum range of 750km. It was to be a weapon for attacking tactically-important targets like air bases, communication facilities, fuel & ammo dumps etc. from safe distances while being able to accompany an armored column if required. The missile was to be carried in a hermetically-sealed canister, much like the PLA 2nd Artillery Corps' DongFeng-16 and DongFeng-18 ballistic missiles that are deployed within Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR).

3) The PRITHVI-3. A much-improved, solid-fueled version of Prithvi-2 (SS250). Shares the dimensions of the earlier missile in the family (with the exception of foldable control fins to facilitate canisterization) but removes the drawbacks of liquid-fuel, and makes use of all-composite stages reducing the missile weight and potentially increasing payload capacity as well as range, thanks to advancements in guidance technologies. Could have maximum ranges of around 600-700km and nearly a 1-ton payload capacity.

Concept image of P-III. Representation only.

Given whatever sources I have available, the Prithvi-3 has been selected for production. The Army might never order the Shaurya although Prahaar still has hope in a different role to support artillery fire-assaults. But regardless, DRDO has already made the Prahaar a possible export prospect (hence the "Pragati" missile at the South Korean defence expo), while the Shaurya went on to serve as the basis for validating SLBM technologies in the guise of the K-15/B-05 SLBM.

Pragati NLOS-BSM

Shaurya-based K15/B-05 SLBM in maiden underwater launch test

Not a maiden test. This is test no 13.

 

[Gessler]

Not a maiden test. This is test no 13.

Ah yes, there were many tests before this from pontoon. This was the first time launch pictures were released.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

MIRVs don't have their own propellants. 1000 kms too much distance to glide down.

I herd this information from one interview of Avinash chander on Bharat defense kavach .com.

Do you know that a heavy bomb dropped from plane can glide 100 KM even with the shity kinetic energy it received from plane. Here MIRV shall be released at a very great height with a speed in excess of Mach 20.

 

[no smoking]

How did you know , PNE in 74 was an euphemism for non atmospheric testing or underground testing.

Because that is the standard procedure of the test of new nuclear bomb: you only start to assemble it when top boss makes the final decision. After you assemble the bomb, some of components will start being affected by radiation, which may increase the risk and uncertainty of your test. Especially if the test fails, this will make it more difficult to find out the real cause of failure.

We were looking for tamper material in early 1980s which can only mean one thing trying to reduce the weight of the already made bombs .

That is not right! You will never use the new material to replace the weight of the already made bombs.
The already made bomb was designed based on the existing materials, every chemical and physical parameters, interactions, size, weights, shapes, etc, even the internal patterns, were carefully calculated and tested. You already spent massive time and resources on it. All you need is a test checking if it works. Before you test it, you try to replace some part of this bomb, which will significantly change the structure of an untested bomb. That means you have to go through all the calculations and tests again since you are actually developing a new design, which means you just wasted most if not all your work on the already made bombs.

The only way you can use the new material is to build a new bomb. But I doubt your scientists would like to jump into stage 2 without testing stage 1.

 

[AnantS]

Do you have any source to support your claiming that India started producing weapons in mid 80's.

in 1989 weaponization was given go ahead. by 1990 India had fissile material for okayis number of weapons. A Good primer for you would be to read Raj Chengappa 's boook

Do you have any source to support your claiming that India started producing weapons in mid 80's.

Search for Weapons of Peace by Raj Chengappa. There is no online print available. In 1989, green signal was given digging shafts to carry out test by Rajiv Gandhi himself. There are several other old articles which appeared in print without online edition, that point to weaponzation process given green signal, due criminal nuclear proliferation between china and pak and West playing blind! Mirage 2000 were purchased because of "strategic role" as missile development had not yet fully taken off in India

 

[garg_bharat]

Nuclear bombs are not only essential but inevitable as the deterrence.

Every weapon ever devised has been used for war-fighting and will be used in future.
If India has the weapons, then it is must that India is able to deploy.

 

[warrior monk]

Do you have any source to support your claiming that India started producing weapons in mid 80's.

Read perkovich or chengappa India procured DPSA Jaguars for gravity drop weapons in late 80s the shaft in which India tested in 98 was created in 83 for new tests then as new weapon designs were ready by then , we had successfully made our own beryllium from our own plant by mid 80s before that we bought this material from a particular European state enough for 2 dozen weapons though how many we made no one knows . But by mid 80s we started making our own pure beryllium reflectors .
Indira Gandhi was assassinated in 84 which slowed down our program for 6 years . Mirages were also insulated for this particular use by late 80s or early 90s.
Thanks to this beryllium we have now reduced the weight of our implosion type warhead and FBF warhead by 80 % now a 25 Kt fbf warhead probably will weigh 250 kgs max.

No one denied that India did actual test. All I am saying is that you need multiple turns of test to perfect your model.
I believe that Indian scientists have created the simulation model on your supercomputer. But no one, include themselves, knows how good this model is because they got only one chance to collect the data and these data are quite doubtful since the test was not 100% successful.

Yes as well as no , the fission warheads were successful and weight and yield control can be done , coming to the fusion warhead the simulation will only test the unclean design in lab many many times , we needs testing if we want to reduce the weight , add another stage to increase the yield and probably reduce the amount of consumption of fissile material though use of ample amount of tritium which India makes by boat loads and fissile tamper can increase the yield . If we want to increase the yield or reduce the weight reliably then we will test but till then the unclean device with little more than 50 % burn of secondary which Santhanam himself said will give us 200 kt +/- 50 kt yield and sadly will weigh around 1 tonne .

Now, you are telling us that Indian scientists already get enough knowledge about nuclear explosion in one shot and they can build the equipment without further tests?

Yes , actually people around the world are worried that some country may endup making a fissionless trigger in the future a pure fusion bomb not the weird ones built around the world.

The first atomic bomb of 1964: 220kt and weigh 1.55 tones;

I think it is wrong your 596 test was a 22 kt bomb of gun type probably and weighed 1.55 tonnes.

the Megaton warhead on DF31 is around 500kg.

Whom are you kidding with this figure have you seen the YTW ratio what kind of super duper tamper did you use .

That is not right! You will never use the new material to replace the weight of the already made bombs.
The already made bomb was designed based on the existing materials, every chemical and physical parameters, interactions, size, weights, shapes, etc, even the internal patterns, were carefully calculated and tested. You already spent massive time and resources on it. All you need is a test checking if it works. Before you test it, you try to replace some part of this bomb, which will significantly change the structure of an untested bomb. That means you have to go through all the calculations and tests again since you are actually developing a new design, which means you just wasted most if not all your work on the already made bombs.

We were supposed to test in early 80s of a new design . Tamper /reflector testing can be done in labs and currently every country making new warheads or replacing old warheads does that , US even accused Iran for having such a facility and brought the facility under safeguard regime in JCPOA .

 

[warrior monk]

So, now you agree that there is no need to dissemble a nuclear bomb after 12.5 years?

Only those containing tritium for boosting either in primary or secondary or both or none for those who have different neutron source they need not worry though this is the best way.

 

[Bornubus]

Read perkovich or chengappa India procured DPSA Jaguars for gravity drop weapons in late 80s the shaft in which India tested in 98 was created in 83 for new tests then as new weapon designs were ready by then , we had successfully made our own beryllium from our own plant by mid 80s before that we bought this material from a particular European state enough for 2 dozen weapons though how many we made no one knows . But by mid 80s we started making our own pure beryllium reflectors .
Indira Gandhi was assassinated in 84 which slowed down our program for 6 years . Mirages were also insulated for this particular use by late 80s or early 90s.
Thanks to this beryllium we have now reduced the weight of our implosion type warhead and FBF warhead by 80 % now a 25 Kt fbf warhead probably will weigh 250 kgs max.



Yes as well as no , the fission warheads were successful and weight and yield control can be done , coming to the fusion warhead the simulation will only test the unclean design in lab many many times , we needs testing if we want to reduce the weight , add another stage to increase the yield and probably reduce the amount of consumption of fissile material though use of ample amount of tritium which India makes by boat loads and fissile tamper can increase the yield . If we want to increase the yield or reduce the weight reliably then we will test but till then the unclean device with little more than 50 % burn of secondary which Santhanam himself said will give us 200 kt +/- 50 kt yield and sadly will weigh around 1 tonne .



Yes , actually people around the world are worried that some country may endup making a fissionless trigger in the future a pure fusion bomb not the weird ones built around the world.



I think it is wrong your 596 test was a 22 kt bomb of gun type probably and weighed 1.55 tonnes.



Whom are you kidding with this figure have you seen the YTW ratio what kind of super duper tamper did you use .



We were supposed to test in early 80s of a new design . Tamper /reflector testing can be done in labs and currently every country making new warheads or replacing old warheads does that , US even accused Iran for having such a facility and brought the facility under safeguard regime in JCPOA .

What is the weapon package for delivering a nuke,is it a gravity bomb or missile launch from Jaguar or Mirage ?