Britain no longer a naval power, fleet strength depleted

[Apollyon]

One in Diego Garcia, one in Mauritius, One in Madagascar, we are making one in Indonesia and Australia.

Sarcasm ...

NAGAN is a low frequency sonar, but it is not an ultra low frequency ATAS as France has developed. We are talking in differences of 2-3X more range with the Thales ATAS than low freq Nagan.

But you can figure it out it's better than any thing we are getting from France or other Nations as we are going to use it on our latest warships (Kamotra Class Corvette is for Anti Sub Warfare in Arabian Sea and BoB) ..

 

[Yusuf]

huh... what? Can you give clarification as I know of no such military bases.

It was in response to question.

 

[Ray]

Given the state of economy, Britain has had no option but to downsize her military to include all the services.

However, it does have a need to have a larger Navy than current to protect its overseas territories, even if NATO can protect the British Isles if the chips are down!

 

[Apollyon]

Given the state of economy, Britain has had no option but to downsize her military to include all the services.

However, it does have a need to have a larger Navy than current to protect its overseas territories, even if NATO can protect the British Isles if the chips are down!

a strong Navy for Britain is a must, more important than a Good AF and Army so that they can comply with NATO operations
next decade might see a change in once view of Royal Navy with commissioning of 2 Aircraft Carrier and Type 26 Frigates (hopefully .. ) with already commissioned Astute SSN and Darling Class ...

 

[Yusuf]

History is a witness to the fact that the most powerful navy has ruled the world, right up to modern day!

 

[Armand2REP]

It was in response to question.

Is it such a facepalm question though? Isn't India working on bases to fight piracy?

 

[Yusuf]

Is it such a facepalm question though? Isn't India working on bases to fight piracy?

Well, the answer probably will hold good in 25 years. The question was how many bases we have in the IOR and it was really funny as we can afford none at the moment. We are not yet that powerful. We don't have enough boats and modern boats at that though we are working towards it. Yes we will have bases in the future and that depends on how meek or strong the mindset of the people ruling the country is.

Logistic and berthing agreements don't mean bases.

 

[p2prada]

I often wonder why I never see MKI with fuel tanks. If IAF hasn't ordered them it makes buddy refueling much less effective.

MKI currently has no wet points. The BM has two wet points carrying 2 2000L tanks. The Su-34 carries 3 3000L drop tanks. It may be part of the Super 30 upgrade, but we don't know.

The MKI may not need it for buddy refueling anyway. Other than that we can have 6 MKIs charged for refueling with refueling from the 2 IL-78s. 2 or 3 squadrons tasked with taking out the Typhoons can take turns refueling from the 2 IL-78s or the 6 buddy MKIs. The IL-78s can refuel 3 MKIs at once and takes a few minutes per aircraft. As for buddy refueling, 9.5 tons of fuel is a lot of fuel. Transferring even 3/4th of it would mean the other MKI has the capability to fly over Andaman for atleast an hour and still get back. Plenty to run ops. Once in the air the MKI can double range with just one refueling or triple it with a second. Operations can be run from South India as well.

The endurance of a 100% fueled MKI is 3 hours 45 minutes. At 500Knots, it will take an hour to get to Andamans from Kalaikunda AFB. At a distance of 1000Km, the MKI is at 60-70% internal fuel which allows leaves an ample amount to execute OCA operations. Ops far from base is what the Flanker was designed for. Andaman and DG are well within range. Heck I am sure we can even engage Middle Eastern forces with mid air refueling if needs be.

EF's may operate at it's best range of 300Km to maintain superior performance and a way to save precious fuel. So, there will be little or no threat to the refuelers. Even if they did try, I am pretty sure there will be a big wall of defences waiting for them while the support aircraft retreat to a safer location.

In an operation in DG or Andaman, the air will be controlled by us, regardless of how many Typhoons are parked there. A squadron of Typhoons will not be able to keep up a steady tempo of operations against a stronger enemy anyway. You can say 2 sorties a day at max for each of the 18 Typhoons while flying 300Km from base. Even lesser if they are doing it far from home base, considering replenishment tankers are difficult to come by. Comparatively IAF can run an endless amount of sorties from multiple air bases against such a small number.

Heck a single squadron against squadron push in a single op can result in losses for both sides and make it a war of attrition.

 

[Armand2REP]

DG is 2000km from the nearest IAF base. How is MKI with 1500km combat radius going to get down there in any large number with only a few available IL-78s? You would wish you have A330 MRTT.

 

[p2prada]

The question to ask will be how the two Navies will fare in a war at sea. By 2016, we plan on inducting quite a lot of big boats. RN will have 3 new Astute class subs by then along with 5 or 6 older classes. That's a big advantage to have. However we have 1 Akula II, 16 Kilos, 4 hopefully upgraded HDWs and maybe 2 Scorpenes. The Astutes are a big advantage, but if the RN surface fleet is lost, they won't be able to do much with just the Astutes.

Destroyers, they will have 6 Type 45 destroyers compared to 3 equivalent Kolkata class and 11 older Destroyers. To match the lopsided numbers in technology, they will have 13 ancient Frigates while we will have 9 new stealth Frigates, 3 relatively modern Frigates and 3 older Frigates.

We have plenty of Corvettes that the British cannot bring to the IOR apart from whatever Blue water ships they do manage to bring to the IOR. I doubt they can manage to bring their entire fleet here.

Finally, we have carriers too. Both will be operational considering both are very new. Tu-145s and P-8Is too.

This would mean our Navy has most of the advantages. Consider the fact that we will have MKIs shooting Brahmoss' left, right and center the RN will be hard pressed fighting us.

Overall we have the numbers advantage and maybe capability advantage too. How we use this tactically and strategically, I have no friggin idea. One thing is for sure, Russia won't be coming to RN's rescue like France did by providing Exocet's frequencies during Falklands. Falklands will be a tiny battle compared to a IN vs RN scenario.

 

[afako]

DG Lease expires in 2016. What is the future afterwards?

India should be supporting Mauritius's Claim over DG.

 

[p2prada]

DG is 2000km from the nearest IAF base. How is MKI with 1500km combat radius going to get down there in any large number with only a few available IL-78s? You would wish you have A330 MRTT.

Kalaikunda AFS is in West Bengal, North India. The base is the closest to Andamans.

As for DG, buddy refueling with more MKIs can handle the increase in range for the OCA fitted MKIs. We have 4 major AFS in South India apart from two in Bangalore. One of these, I think Sulur, will have a squadron of MKIs stationed there eventually.

The MKIs range of 3000Km can be increased to 5500Km with just one refueling. Plenty for any mission in IOR. We don't really need the big refuelers in massive numbers because of the MKIs already large fuel capacity, which may eventually increase by another 3 tons. Three supporting refuelers can manage a large number of MKIs(18-24) along with the extra capability when it comes to buddy refueling.

In case drop tanks are added during the upgrade, a lot of the problem is already solved. The drop tanks add an extra 3 tons of fuel, 4.5 tons if we end up using the 3000L tanks instead of 2000L, pushing the range up by 1500-2000Km.

A new contract is being readied for the IL-78, A-330 and maybe the KC-46.

 

[Armand2REP]

They can make it to Andamans alright but without tankers they can't operate over DG. GoI keeps screwing around with the tanker contract it just doesn't seem to be a priority.

 

[SATISH]

DG Lease expires in 2016. What is the future afterwards?

India should be supporting Mauritius's Claim over DG.

I think that will be one of the worst ideas ever strategically and economically...2 is always better than one. THe whole burden of IOR will come on our head and with our situation it is not wise.

 

[Ray]

DG Lease expires in 2016. What is the future afterwards?

India should be supporting Mauritius's Claim over DG.

The lease will be renewed in any case.

The UK forcibly evacuated the island of all its natives when handing it over to the US. The human rights violation case has been rotting in the UK courts for donkeys years with nothing in sight.

Mauritius has been financially compensated.

No matter what is India's aircrafts' reach, it will make no difference since the Diego Gracia is a very critical area for US strategy and therefore it will be defend with all the US' might.

India is in no position to take on the US!

What is OCA?

 

[Ray]

Diego Gracia is an atoll.

The atoll is approximately 1,800 nautical miles (3,300 km) east of the coast of Africa, 1,200 nautical miles (2,200 km) south of the southern tip of India and 3,467 nautical miles (6,400 km) west of Darwin, Australia.

Mauritius sought to regain sovereignty, lost just before independence in 1968, over the Chagos Archipelago. Forty years ago its population, then numbering some 2,000 people, were expelled by the British government to Mauritius and Seychelles to allow the United States to establish a military base on the island. Today the exiled Chagossians are still fighting to go back to their homeland, claiming that the forced expulsion and dispossession (see Depopulation of Diego Garcia) was illegal.

Strategic Air Command began deploying Boeing B-52 Stratofortress bombers and aerial refueling aircraft to the newly completed airfield facilities in 1987.

Following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in August 1990, three ships of COMPSRON 2 sortied, delivering a Marine Expeditionary Brigade to Saudi Arabia to defend that kingdom and ultimately liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation. Other COMPSRON 2 ships offloaded the munitions, bombs, and fuel on Diego Garcia that were required for the US bomber fleet that deployed to airfield. Subsequently, B-52G bombers flew more than 200 17-hour bombing missions over 44 days and dropped more than 800,000 short tons (730,000,000 kg) of bombs on Iraqi forces in Iraq and Kuwait. One of the B-52s crashed from mechanical failures just north of the island with the loss of three of its six-man crew.

Beginning on 7 October 2001, the US again commenced military operations from Diego Garcia using B-1, B-2, and B-52 bombers to attack enemy targets in Afghanistan following the attacks on New York City and the Pentagon

Naval Support Facility Diego Garcia

The Naval Support Facility Diego Garcia provides Base Operating Services to tenant commands located on the island. The command's mission is "To provide logistic support to operational forces forward deployed to the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf AORs in support of national policy objectives."

As of January 2012, the facility supported the following tenant commands:
Maritime Pre-Positioning Ships Squadron TWO
Branch Health Clinic
NCTAMS Pacific Det Diego Garcia
Naval Mobile Construction Battalion Detachment
Naval Media Center Detachment Diego Garcia
Military Sealift Command Office Diego Garcia
Mission Support Facility
FISC Yokosuka
NAVFAC FE
36 MXG Pacific Air Force
Det 1, 715th AMOG (AMC)
AFSPC Det 2, 22nd Space Operations Squadron (ARTS & GPS)
AFSPC Det 2, 18th Space Surveillance Squadron (GEODSS)
Additionally, the USS Emory S. Land (AS-39) is forward deployed to Diego Garcia.

US pre-positioned vessels

The atoll shelters the ships of the US Marine Pre-positioning Squadron Two. These ships carry equipment and supplies to support a major armed force with tanks, armoured personnel carriers, munitions, fuel, spare parts and even a mobile field hospital. This equipment was used during the Persian Gulf War, when the squadron transported equipment to Saudi Arabia.

The ship composition of MPSRON TWO is dynamic. During August 2010 it was composed of:
MV Capt. Steven L. Bennett (T-AK-4296)
USNS SGT William R. Button (T-AK-3012),[114]
MV SSG Edward A. Carter, Jr. (T-AK-4544),[115]
MV Maj. Bernard F. Fisher (T-AK-4396)
USNS Lawrence H. Gianella (T-AOT-1125)
USNS SGT Matej Kocak (T-AK-3005),[116]
USNS 1st LT Baldomero Lopez (T-AK-3010),[117]
MV LTC John U. D. Page[118]
USNS GYSGT Fred W. Stockham (T-AK-3017)

Five of these vessels carry supplies for the US Marine Corps sufficient to support a Marine Air-Ground Task Force for 30 days: USNS Button, USNS Kocak, USNS Lopez, USNS Stockham, and USNS Fisher.

Prior to 2001, COMPSRON 2 consisted of up to 20 ships, including four Combat Force Ships which provided rapid-response delivery of equipment to ground troops in the US Army. Three are Lighter aboard ships (LASH) which carry barges called Lighters that contain Army ammunition to be ferried ashore: MV American Cormorant, SS Green Harbour, (LASH), SS Green Valley, (LASH), MV Jeb Stuart, (LASH). There were Logistics Vessels to service the rapid delivery requirements of the US Air Force, US Navy and Defense Logistics Agency. These included container ships for Air Force munitions, missiles and spare parts; a 500-bed hospital ship, and floating storage and offloading units assigned to Military Sealift Command supporting the Defense Logistics Agency, and an offshore petroleum discharge system (OPDS) tanker ship. Some ship names were MV Buffalo Soldier, MV Green Ridge, pre-position tanker USNS Henry J. Kaiser, and tanker USNS Potomac (T-AO-181).

Satellite and Communication Facilities

This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2012)

Air Force Satellite Control Network station

The US Air Force operates a Remote Tracking Station on Diego Garcia. Its call sign is REEF. This facility became more vital after the closure of the Indian Ocean Station in 1996.

GEODSS Station

Diego Garcia GEODSS station.

The US Air Force Operates a station of the Ground-based Electro-optical Deep Space Surveillance system on the southern end of the atoll.[citation needed]7.41173°S 72.45222°E

Global Positioning System monitoring station

Diego Garcia is one of the five control bases for the Global Positioning System, operated by the United States military. The US Air Force also has monitoring stations in Hawaii, Kwajalein, Ascension Island, and Colorado Springs. The stations synchronise and update the atomic clocks on the 24 orbiting satellites that emit the signals used by GPS receivers. 7.26654999°S 72.36312094°E.

HF Global station

The US Air Force operates a High Frequency Global Communications System transceiver site located on the south end of the atoll near the GEODSS station. The transceiver is operated remotely from Joint Base Andrews and locally maintained by NCTS FE personnel.

Naval Computer and Telecommunications Station Far East Detachment Diego Garcia

Naval Computer and Telecommunications Station Far East Detachment Diego Garcia operates a detachment in Diego Garcia. This detachment provides base telephone communications, provides base network services (Local Network Services Center), pier connectivity services, an AN/GSC-39C SHF satellite terminal, operates the Hydroacoustic Data Acquisition System, and performs on-site maintenance for the remotely operated Air Force HF-GCS terminal.

Naval Security Group detachment Diego Garcia was disestablished on September 30, 2005. Remaining essential operations were transferred to a contractor. The large AN/AX-16 High Frequency Radio direction finding Circularly Disposed Antenna Array has been demolished, but the four satellite antenna radomes around the site remain as of 2010.

ETOPS emergency landing site

Diego Garcia may be identified as an ETOPS (Extended Range Twin Engine Operations) emergency landing site (en route alternate) for flight planning purposes of commercial airliners. This allows twin-engine commercial aircraft (such as the Airbus A330, Boeing 767 or Boeing 777) to make theoretical nonstop flights between city pairs such as Perth and Dubai (9,013.61 km/5,600.80 mi), Hong Kong and Johannesburg (10,658 km/6,623 mi) or Singapore and São Paulo (15,985.41 km/9,932.87 mi), all while maintaining a suitable diversion airport within 180 minutes' flying time with one engine inoperable.

Space shuttle

The island was one of 33 emergency landing sites worldwide for the NASA Space Shuttle. None of these facilities were ever used throughout the life of the shuttle program.

Cargo service

From 2004 to 2009, MV Baffin Strait transited between Singapore and Diego Garcia once a month.

All consumable food and equipment is brought to Diego Garcia by sea or air, and all non-biodegradable waste is shipped off the island as well. From 1971 to 1973, US Navy LSTs provided this service. Beginning in 1973, civilian ships were contracted to provide these services. From 2004 to 2009, the US-flagged container ship MV Baffin Strait, often referred to as the "DGAR shuttle," delivered 250 containers every month from Singapore to Diego Garcia.[123] The ship delivered more than 200,000 tons of cargo to the island each year." On the return trip to Singapore, it carried recyclable metals.

In 2004, TransAtlantic Lines outbid Sealift Incorporated for the transport contract between Singapore and Diego Garcia.

The route had previously been serviced by Sealift Inc.'s MV Sagamore, manned by members of American Maritime Officers and Seafarers' International Union. TransAtlantic Lines reportedly won the contract by approximately 10 percent, representing a price difference of about US$2.7 million. The Baffin Straits charter ran from January 10, 2005 to September 30, 2008 at a daily rate of US$12,550.

From Wiki

 

[p2prada]

India is in no position to take on the US!

Armand created a fictional scenario where only UK will protect the base. US won't be in the picture. Real life, neither Andamans nor DG will be held by UK.

What is OCA?

Offensive Counter Air. Aircraft against aircraft operations. When I said OCA fitted MKIs, I meant MKIs with air to air missiles and EW pods programmed to fight enemy aircraft.

They can make it to Andamans alright but without tankers they can't operate over DG. GoI keeps screwing around with the tanker contract it just doesn't seem to be a priority.

2000 and 3000L drop tanks are a better option. This nearly doubles range if used correctly. Range for Su-35BM is specified as 5500Km with 2000L drop tanks. Even assuming we have two tankers under repairs, we still have 4 operational tankers capable of transferring 85 or 105 tons of fuel if needs be. That's 300-400 tons of fuel for 3 squadrons. Plenty for any operation.

Realistically we need 1 refueler for every squadron. Even RAF has plans for 14 refuelers. For the size of our Air force our refueling capability is limited, but for this operation we have enough numbers. We obviously don't plan on parking all 15 squadrons on DG.

A major advantage for IAF is that we have extensively evaluated the Typhoon over a year while RAF has never touched the MKI beyond a joyride for the RAF ACM.

 

[Armand2REP]

IL-78 has transferable fuel stores of 57.7 tonnes without fuel tanks and 85.7t with two. Adding the third takes it past useful load and causes significant inefficiency in flight. The IL-78MKI can fuel 6 MKIs at a time and with only 4 operational tankers makes a 2-2 rotation likely. So, count 12 MKIs can be over DG at once. This wouldn't be enough to overcome a Typhoon squadron at its base, but add a squadron of MiG-29Ks and it puts the balance of power to India. Not to mention if the first wave of MKI becomes attritioned, you can follow up with further waves so you will get air superiority if you can stop reinforcements. The real issue has always been dealing with RN submarines.

 

[p2prada]

IL-78 has transferable fuel stores of 57.7 tonnes without fuel tanks and 85.7t with two. Adding the third takes it past useful load and causes significant inefficiency in flight.

The point is we need a refueler that can quickly empty it's tanks to a force that needs to go to Diego and then land to refuel. The first set of refuelers don't have to stay in the air for long.

I am amused at how the discussion has moved away from MKI cannot do it to how we don't have enough refuelers.

Anyway it seems we will sign the contract for new refuelers even before the Rafale contract.
Deal for procuring mid-air refueller aircraft in last phase - Economic Times

The IL-78MKI can fuel 6 MKIs at a time and with only 4 operational tankers makes a 2-2 rotation likely.

At 57.7 tons, it will be 6 MKIs. At 85.7 tons, it will be 8 MKIs. As already mentioned by IAF.

It is not like all their 18 Typhoons will be flying in the air at once. They can't have all 18 up at once and then suddenly have themselves attacked by a second wave when they are on the ground. Even if we send in a pessimistic 12 MKIs we will still have numerical advantage. The 2 refuelers need to empty their tanks, land and be replaced by the other 2 refuelers on standby. A single sortie is a 4 hour operation for the MKIs, so we can have all 4 refuelers in the air by the time they come back from DG. Heck even a second wave of 12 MKIs can be sent out before the other 12 return. There is enough time for that.

Include buddy refueling and you are completely underestimating the MKIs. Include drop tanks and we may not even need the heavy refuelers.

The real issue has always been dealing with RN submarines.

Take out the surface ships. The subs won't fight a losing battle even if they have an upper hand against our ships. We will eventually have air superiority. Maybe one of the P-8Is may sink one Astute and force them into a corner.

Naa, against the RN we have every possible advantage. We will have similar levels of technology bar the Astute. We will have air superiority and the home advantage.

 

[Armand2REP]

What if UK MoD has the foresight to launch a Tomawk strike on Agra and wipe out the tanker squadron? Astute can do that as well as sink carriers. It is a tough call.