Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in Texas

Ray

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Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in Texas, says pro-gun senator Leyonhjelm



Australia is a "nation of victims" with citizens unable to properly protect themselves with weapons, pro-gun crossbench senator David Leyonhjelm has said.


The Liberal Democrat said he wanted a calm, measured discussion about the right to "practical self-defence" in the wake of the deadly Sydney siege.

"What happened in that cafe would have been most unlikely to have occurred in Florida, Texas, or Vermont, or Alaska in America, or perhaps even Switzerland as well," Senator Leyonhjelm told the ABC's AM program.

"Statistically speaking" in those jurisdictions, "one or two of the victims" would have had a concealed gun, he said.

"That nutcase who held them all hostage wouldn't have known they were armed and bad guys don't like to be shot back at," Senator Leyonhjelm said.

He said the Lindt cafe hostages were helpless because they were not allowed to carry a lethal or non-lethal weapon.

We asked you what you thought of Senator Leyonhjelm's comments. This is what you said.
"It would have been illegal for them to have had a knife, a stick, a pepper spray, a personal taser, mace, anything like that for self-defence," he said.

"I regard that [as] an absolute travesty. To turn an entire population into a nation of victims is just unforgiveable in my estimation."

Senator Leyonhjelm has long argued Australians should be allowed greater access to weapons.

He left the Liberal Party because of John Howard's crackdown on guns following the Port Arthur massacre and said the public could not be confident police or tougher laws will stop violent crime or acts of terrorism.

"We've got tougher laws, they were introduced by the Government just in the last few months, they did nothing to prevent this bloke from committing evil acts in the name of Islamism", Senator Leyonhjelm said.

"They didn't prevent him from getting a gun. It's just not acceptable that we are all disarmed victims."

Sydney siege is Tony Abbott's Port Arthur moment, Greens say

On the opposite side of the political spectrum, the Greens have labelled the horrific hostage situation Tony Abbott's Port Arthur moment.

"In the wake of the Port Arthur massacre John Howard did the right thing," Greens acting leader Adam Bandt said.

"He said, 'this is a tragedy and shows what happens when someone who is unstable gets access to a gun'.

"Tony Abbott needs to take a leaf out of John Howard's book."

The Greens want the joint NSW and federal inquiry into the siege to focus largely on the question of how Man Haron Monis was able to obtain a weapon.

"How did someone who had mental health issues, who is charged with being accessory to murder, get a gun?" Mr Bandt said.

"If the inquiry focuses on that it has the potential to make this country safer and we might see some positive reform arise out of this tragedy.

"The idea that we will make Australia safer by becoming more like the United States... and giving more people access to guns just beggars belief."

Mr Abbott was initially told by security officials that Monis had a gun licence, but police said they have no record of it.

A spokesman for Gun Control Australia, Roland Browne, told RN Breakfast that for someone to get a licence, they have to demonstrate that they are a fit and proper person with a need for a firearm, but he said there were ways to get around the laws.

"People can lie when they apply for gun licences and they can make themselves out to be, for example, a hunter, which is an inaccurate expression and allows people to slip under what would otherwise be an effective restriction," he said.

Former deputy prime minister Tim Fischer backed tough gun control laws in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre.

He said it was "seductive nonsense" to suggest American-style firearm policies would be appropriate in Australia.

"Debate will always go on in a good democracy but where it is built on a pack of lies from the NRA (National Rifle Association) it should be dealt with swiftly," he said.

"It is seductive nonsense to say concealed gun laws would somehow work here in Australia."

US president Barack Obama reiterated that Washington stood ready to provide assistance following the siege.

In a phone conversation with Mr Abbott, Mr Obama expressed condolences to the families who lost loved ones.

Mr Obama also praised Australia's rejection of any violence taken in the name of religion.
Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in Texas, says pro-gun senator Leyonhjelm - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
How far is the Senator right that folks should be allowed to have guns for protection.

If the customers had guns would it have stopped such a situation.

What is the guarantee that there would not be amongst the customer folks who are of the same views as the one holding up the place and thereby adding to the gun power of the one holding up the place?
 

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Re: Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in T

draugh39 4:09 PM on 18/12/2014
In a related matter there is another story out of Waco, Texas on the news right now. A few hour ago the TV meteorologist Patrick Crawford exchanged words with a man at the parking lot outside the TV station KCEN. That man then pulled out a handgun and fired several times at the TV meteorologist Crawford is undergoing surgery at a local hospital. The gunman is reported to be

"white, in his mid-30s, balding, and was wearing a dark hooded sweatshirt and dark jeans, authorities said. He's armed with a semi-automatic handgun"

I wonder if this guy had one of these "concealed carry permits" that Senator Leyonhjelm want people in Australia to be able to get. Texas was after all the place that Senetor Leyonhjelm want Australia to be more like.

It's not that we have had a problem with unprovoked "coward-punches" here in Oz right?
Think how much *safer* we all feel knowing that EVERYONE we meet can be carrying a concealed firearm instead...
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Score: -1 johnnoh 3:56 PM on 18/12/2014
Senator Leyonhjelm, in Australia, we have no need to have the right to bear arms. Haven't 94 school children been killed in the USA this year in seiges or random shootings by gun wielding maniacs. I think you'll find most, if not all, of those killers were in possession of a firearms licence, applicable to those weapons. Please don't patronise us. Mainly speaking, the general public has no need to own a firearm, the exceptions, that I can see, are farmers who may need to to put down animals.
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Score: -1 sticksnstones 3:33 PM on 18/12/2014
I seldom agree with John Howard about anything, but he is absolutely right when he says: "It is a matter of basic logic that the more guns we have in society, the greater the opportunity for mass murder." People from all points of the political compass should think clearly and soberly before going down the blood drenched path of a society awash with lethal weapons. I don't want to live in a country that gradually allows itself to resemble a war zone, an armed camp, or anarchistic free for all where only the individual with the most fire power prevails!
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Score: 1 jamesff86 3:20 PM on 18/12/2014
Gotta say I somewhat agree. In the case of the siege I think it would have been a bad idea if any of the victims were to attack the crazy guy with the gun (that's all he was, after all) since there was a threat of bombs. BUT, I've always been a firm believer that if someone tries to rob, stab, rape or kill you you should be able to properly defend yourself. Chances are they have a weapon, why not level the playing field? A few harsh words won't deter a junkie with a knife on you. I'm not talking about being able to walk around carrying an assault rifle "for protection," but being allowed to carry any of the things mentioned in the article - pepper spray, knives etc. And I don't think anyone is suggesting that gun laws are relaxed, but I don't see a problem with people who are already able to legally buy them to go through a course or something involving situations where using one for self defense applies and get a licence for concealed carry. Just my two cents.
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Score: -1 fearlessfred 3:20 PM on 18/12/2014
He would make a great USA Senator.

Let's deport him immediately.

The USA is not a role model for the world, and it is one country I never have and never would visit.

There are still too many guns in Australia.
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Score: 0 masonite 2:55 PM on 18/12/2014
"What happened in that cafe would have been most unlikely to have occurred in Florida, Texas, or Vermont, or Alaska in America."

O cool! I'm going to move to America now, where there's no chance of me being shot by a gunman! Yippee!
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Score: 5 nuggett08 2:52 PM on 18/12/2014
I have a gun licence and have jumped through all the hoops to have it. I have followed all laws and pay the money to keep it current. Any thoughts of making licences any stricter will be total stupidity. What it will do is drive law abiding citizens to simply give up trying to do the right thing due to the process being ridiculous. This in turn will create an underground culture of buying and selling. Presently it is mainly criminals that indulge in blackmarket purchases however keep changing the goal posts and you will shoot yourself in the foot metaphorically speaking. I know for a fact that there is massive amounts of easily accessible illegal firearms if you know where to look. Punish the criminals not everyone.
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Score: 1 pragmatist2014 2:30 PM on 18/12/2014
Is it 1st of April?

Surely he has to be having a lend of us.
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Score: 1 draugh39 2:25 PM on 18/12/2014
So the senator argues that there wouldn't be siege (like the one we have witnessed) in a place like Texas as they have the right to carry weapons including concealed ones. The Senator is old enough so that he should remember a rather infamous siege that took place in Texas in a place called Waco. That siege netted a total of 76 dead so in a way he is right that the siege we have seen here in Sydney is in no way like the ones seen in Texas...

And in regards to other mass-shootings in Texas of late we have The Fort Hood shooting in April this year; the shootings in Spring, Texas in July this year and the Austin shooting rampage in November this year - just to mention 3 that was in the news here in Australia.

The question is, do we really want an Australian equivalent to the Waco siege, and the other massacres that happened, just this year, in Texas?

(According to senator Leyonhjelm's comments above that appears to be an affirmative....)
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Score: 2 fishandchips 2:08 PM on 18/12/2014
If this nation is to become like the USA, then I'll find somewhere else. I wonder how many more would have died in the cross fire. I am shocked to write it, but it could have been worse.
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Score: 1 bones ii 1:55 PM on 18/12/2014
In regards to what the senator has said, I'm with Dog Tags, carrying a firearm in your day to day life would actually restrict your freedom, its a massive responsibility and burden which has to be constantly at the forefront of your mind and needs to be taken into account with everything you do.

I really enjoy target shooting and I strongly believe that gun ownership for sporting purposes has a legitimate place in our society, as long as it is properly regulated, restricted and policed. I certainly do not want to see unregulated and unrestricted ownership, it is and should remain a privilege and not a right. I think that our current laws a pretty good, we will have to see what comes to light with the investigation into this matter to see how the system failed. As far as I know his history should have meant that he couldn't hold a licence or legally procure a firearm - especially a shortened shotgun which is a prohibited weapon.

To the Anti/Ban Gun people, I can understand the sentiment, but banning all firearms will have a negligible affect on gun related crime or crime in general. Shooting is a legitimate sport which many people safely participate in, and we do quite well in international competitions too. Our gun culture is very different to the US and I think if you better knew the Australian experience, you would be a lot more comfortable with this in our society.
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Score: 4 really_questionmark 1:34 PM on 18/12/2014
With 12,004 deaths from firearms in 2014 alone the USA is the 'nation of victims', not Australia!
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Score: 3 artisand 1:31 PM on 18/12/2014
Does one have to be a certified nutter to become a US senator. This is the same muddled-headed thinking that thinks 'the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is for a good guy to have a gun'. The problem then is 'who decides who is the bad guy and who is the good guy'??
We may have our weaknesses but we don't have too many people shooting up schools with automatic weapons.
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Score: 3 hillsbody 1:24 PM on 18/12/2014
Noooooo! Please do not even suggest this a solution. It would create way more problems than YOU think it would solve.
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Score: 4 mbk0010 1:15 PM on 18/12/2014
As much as I like Leyonhjelm for having conviction in his stance on personal rights, I think he's misguided here.
Think about it, the hostages in this case are scared, they're jittery and you want to give them guns? It would cause more chaos. Please, leave high-risk situations like this to trained professionals, less chance of mistakes. Guns are never the answer.
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Score: 5 unbe kannt 1:04 PM on 18/12/2014
Guns are totally awesome at stopping other people with guns. That's why everybody in the US carries a gun, and there are never any sieges, and nobody ever gets shot. Oh, wait...

Seems like the real victim here is you, Senator. You're a victim of irrational fear. How about you ask your staffers to add some cement to your morning coffee so you can HTFU?
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Score: 5 lordmite 12:47 PM on 18/12/2014
By arming the "victims" you do not solve the problem. You great greater conflict. Surely the countries law enforcement agencies are more than capable of resolving situations like the Lindt Café siege without resorting to an American style "right to carry arms" for all and ending in the massacres that occur in the U.S.A.
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Score: 3 zzyplza 12:41 PM on 18/12/2014
I just watched The Equalizer, now read this:
Carrying a Gun Wouldn't Necessarily Get You Out of a Shooting - ABC News
Life is not like the movies. I was surprised when I read this but I should not have been, surely?
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Score: 3 frog01 12:37 PM on 18/12/2014
Senator David, I lived in the U.S. for almost thirty years and was continually surrounded by the "gun culture" and have a liking for all types and calibers of firearms, and, I, too, have to say I think you are drastically wrong with your thoughts on this subject.
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Score: 5 commentabc 12:27 PM on 18/12/2014
Irrespective of how baffling and simplistic Senator Leyonhjelm's comments are, the statement that the Lindt cafe tragedy would have been most unlikely to happen in Switzerland is factually inaccurate. Even prefaced by the word "perhaps". Switzerland has strict gun laws and no one in that country would think of questioning them - except to make them stricter. While there is a high rate of gun ownership in Switzerland, this is only as a result of the compulsory military training of Swiss citizens, whose use of their weapon is strictly regulated, and who have no right to use their weapon for private purposes.
Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in Texas, says pro-gun senator Leyonhjelm - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Comments on the article.
 

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Re: Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in T

Sydney siege: AFP admits misinforming PM that Lindt cafe gunman Man Haron Monis had firearms licence

The Australian Federal Police have taken responsibility for inaccurate information about whether Sydney siege gunman Man Haron Monis had a firearms licence.

Yesterday during a media conference Prime Minister Tony Abbott repeatedly said Monis had a gun licence.

The Australian Federal Police has now admitted to being the source of the information, which it provided to Mr Abbott in a briefing yesterday morning.

But police said further inquiries had revealed that Monis was not a registered firearms licence holder after all, and has never held a New South Wales gun licence.

"The information provided at the time was based on a manual entry in the National Police Reference System in the category of 'Firearms Licence Holder'," the statement said.

More at
Sydney siege: AFP admits misinforming PM that Lindt cafe gunman Man Haron Monis had firearms licence - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
 

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Re: Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in T

@Ray

This is what the Interpol Secretary General Ronald Noble had say about this sort of attacks and he made those comments after the Nairobi attack.

Interpol Secretary General Ronald Noble said today the U.S. and the rest of the democratic world is at a security crossroads in the wake of last month's deadly al-Shabab attack at a shopping mall in Nairobi, Kenya – and suggested an answer could be in arming civilians.

In an exclusive interview with ABC News, Noble said there are really only two choices for protecting open societies from attacks like the one on Westgate mall where so-called "soft targets" are hit: either create secure perimeters around the locations or allow civilians to carry their own guns to protect themselves.

"Societies have to think about how they're going to approach the problem," Noble said. "One is to say we want an armed citizenry; you can see the reason for that. Another is to say the enclaves are so secure that in order to get into the soft target you're going to have to pass through extraordinary security."

Noble's comments came only moments after the official opening of the 82nd annual gathering of the Interpol's governing body, the General Assembly. The session is being held in Cartagena, Colombia, and is being used to highlight strides over the last decade in Colombia's battle against the notorious drug cartels that used to be the real power in the country.

The secretary general, an American who previously headed up all law enforcement for the U.S. Treasury Department, told reporters during a brief news conference that the Westgate mall attack marks what has long been seen as "an evolution in terrorism." Instead of targets like the Pentagon and World Trade Center that now have far more security since 9/11, attackers are focusing on sites with little security that attract large numbers of people.

At least 67 were killed over a period of days at the Westgate mall, more than 60 of the dead were civilians. The Somalia-based al Qaeda-allied terror group al-Shabab claimed responsibility for the attack as it was ongoing but investigators are still trying to determine exactly who planned the strike, where they are and what is next for them. U.S. authorities in Uganda, fearing another similar incident in Africa, issued a warning late last week.

Citing a recent call for al Qaeda "brothers to strike soft targets, to do it in small groups," Noble said law enforcement is now facing a daunting task.

"How do you protect soft targets? That's really the challenge. You can't have armed police forces everywhere," he told reporters. "It's Interpol's view that one way you protect soft targets is you make it more difficult for terrorist to move internationally. So what we're trying to do is to establish a way for countries "¦ to screen passports, which are a terrorist's best friend, try to limit terrorists moving from country to country. And also, that we're able to share more info about suspected terrorists."

In the interview with ABC News, Noble was more blunt and directed his comments to his home country.

"Ask yourself: If that was Denver, Col., if that was Texas, would those guys have been able to spend hours, days, shooting people randomly?" Noble said, referring to states with pro-gun traditions. "What I'm saying is it makes police around the world question their views on gun control. It makes citizens question their views on gun control. You have to ask yourself, 'Is an armed citizenry more necessary now than it was in the past with an evolving threat of terrorism?' This is something that has to be discussed."

"For me it's a profound question," he continued. "People are quick to say 'gun control, people shouldn't be armed,' etc., etc. I think they have to ask themselves: 'Where would you have wanted to be? In a city where there was gun control and no citizens armed if you're in a Westgate mall, or in a place like Denver or Texas?'"


Prior to the Westgate attack, the gun control debate has been ignited time and time again in the U.S. in the aftermath of a series of mass shootings, including one in a movie theater in Aurora, Col., a suburb of Denver.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-westgate-interpol-chief-ponders-armed-citizenry/story?id=20637341

If the customers had guns would it have stopped such a situation.

What is the guarantee that there would not be amongst the customer folks who are of the same views as the one holding up the place and thereby adding to the gun power of the one holding up the place?
It would not a be a massacre that is for sure and citizens would at least be able to exercise their right to self defense in an effective manner.
 
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Ray

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Re: Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in T

Gunfight at OK Corral? :)

In my opinion, if there are armed and trained gun equipped guards at the entrance, they would suffice.
 
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Spindrift

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Re: Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in T

In my opinion, if there are armed and trained gun equipped guards at the entrance, they would suffice.
The would be the first to be taken out.... concealed carry would give the most advantage to the would be victims.
 

Hari Sud

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Re: Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in T

Not really; Australia is not a nation of victims. Hardly any terrorist acts. One lone incident by lone individual does not constitute a terror siege. If India, US or Europe do claim that title, then it can be accepted but not Australia.

But a lesson is to be drawn from incidents like that I.e. Some people who have fraudulently acquired country's citizenship are to be legally removed and sent back to where they came from. This lone wolf in Sydney was a well known trouble maker for a long time. His citizenship should have been cancelled long back. That would have been a lesson to a lot more individual who were thinking alike.

Great Briton, Canada and US are in the same state. Their immigration policies are that no questions asked in letting immigrants in or giving them citizenship in five years. After that time they begin creating trouble. Laws have to be rewritten to deal with that. These type of individuals have to be sent back to their home country. For citizens born there, the same laws apply. They have to be sent back with their parents.
 

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Re: Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in T

Gunfight at OK Corral? :)

In my opinion, if there are armed and trained gun equipped guards at the entrance, they would suffice.
That's right. They would be enough. The prospect of a heavily armed civil populace in a country like Australia is pretty silly. We are not gun-obsessed Americans no matter how much this jerk, David Leyonhjelm, would like us to be. Only those with a reason to have a gun should own a gun; farmers, for example, who need to shoot vermin.
 

Ray

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Re: Australia a 'nation of victims', deadly Sydney siege unlikely in T

The would be the first to be taken out.... concealed carry would give the most advantage to the would be victims.
Given that to be the obvious target of those who want to perpetuate a massacre, one does not brandish weapons or wear uniform when in an undercover posture.

Maybe I could not explain that earlier.

Can you identify the house detective in stores?
 

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