Army set to try more lethal T-90 tank

Killswitch

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The Arjun is about 3 times more costly than the T90, and it is far to heavy for most terrain and infrastructure on the borders.

If an Arjun MK 3 can be designed at 50 tins, it could easily replace all tanks in service. Until then the T series will have to do.


As for the upgrades, the T90ms Has fare more protection vs the earlier version, and the ammo cookoff issues have finally been addressed.

If all of the t(0's can be upgraded, then the T72s can be mothballed and then the focus can be placed on one day replacing the T90s with Arjun mk 3 (aka the fmbt).
 

hitesh

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Russians are master of there game, when slowly and steady DRDO started making a progress on there Arjun, Russians played there master stroke by fielding improved T90MS . The slow speed of DRDO killed the Arjun and I have no hope for this tank other then the expertise they have learn't which can be employed on future project. I think they should have started with some thing simpler like APC ,look at the fate of Abhay IFV they cant even make a decent copy of BMP
 

Kunal Biswas

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Where exactly you got the information from ?


The Arjun is about 3 times more costly than the T90, NO

heavy for most terrain and infrastructure on the borders. NO

the ammo cookoff issues have finally been addressed. NO
@ersakthivel

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Before making bunch of knee jerking comments in threads, Do a little research ..

You have no clue what you are talking about ..

look at the fate of Abhay IFV they cant even make a decent copy of BMP
 
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JBH22

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Russians are master of there game, when slowly and steady DRDO started making a progress on there Arjun, Russians played there master stroke by fielding improved T90MS . The slow speed of DRDO killed the Arjun and I have no hope for this tank other then the expertise they have learn't which can be employed on future project. I think they should have started with some thing simpler like APC ,look at the fate of Abhay IFV they cant even make a decent copy of BMP
ABHay is more like CV-90, it a surprise that they did not push with the completion of this project.

Wonder why they want to stick to BMP-2
 

jmj_overlord

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hey guys, what gives an edge to t 90MS tagil over other t 90 variants and how can it suit our needs ?
 

Kunal Biswas

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T-90MS comes with improved Fire control system, An APU and new generation ERA so does electronics compare to T-90S Bhishma, But in term of design T-90MS its worst than T-90S Bhishma ..

In Indian Context its not needed, T-90S Bhishma is more than enough with mid level Upgrade which will put it at almost same level of T-90MS, The upgrade is already underway ..

Extra purchase of T-90MS is more of a part of Russian lobby works at MOD..

hey guys, what gives an edge to t 90MS tagil over other t 90 variants and how can it suit our needs ?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Well they are trying hard to put nails on Arjun project, I guess they will keep exporting tincans ..

Armata when ready will surely offer to India ..

so the export version's production won't be stopped for some time ? and is armata too available for export ?
 

jmj_overlord

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Well they are trying hard to put nails on Arjun project, I guess they will keep exporting tincans ..

Armata when ready will surely offer to India ..
i didn't understand what you meant by " they are trying to put nails on arjun project"......arjun was pitched with t 90, right ? and arjun was superior compared to t 90. Then how can they convince the army to procure t 90s rather than our own arjun ? is the weight of arjun and other malfunctions the real problem ?
 

shafiq alam

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I just fail to get Army's stand on Arjun saying it is heavy, even if its heavy move the "mighty " T-90 to the eastern sector and to the places like leh and other mountainous regions and replace older t series with arjun in the western sector lin places like plain of punjab and Thar....I feel it will own every thing available on the other side...why waste $$ on old T-72
 

Kunal Biswas

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In Eastern sector there is need for Light tanks in 20-35ton CV-90-120 & Anders even PT-76 , Not 50ton T-90 ..

Over Western Sector, Weight issue is same for all tanks, Bridges and roads cannot even handle 40ton weight this includes T-72M1 and T-90S ..

Arjun weight makes no difference, Infact Arjun mobility is better over thar and Punjab areas as it has lower ground pressure compare to both T -tanks ..
 

ersakthivel

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Where exactly you got the information from ?




@ersakthivel

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Before making bunch of knee jerking comments in threads, Do a little research ..

You have no clue what you are talking about ..
Election fund raising is in full swing- that's all I can say about the extra 240 numbers of T-90 orders that are going to save India from all it's enemies.While restricting the total numbers of Arjun in IA to 240. Because Arjun can not raise funds for election.
 
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ersakthivel

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The Russians can't afford to build capability like we can right now. They are waiting for their petrodollars to flow into their coffers. That's why they are developing the latest of everything and then place bulk orders. OTOH, we can place bulk orders for current gen stuff as well as develop and place orders for future gen stuff.

Anyway, they have quite a few tanks which are older than the T-90S and still quite capable.

You can follow that pattern in every Russian service wing and not just Armata. New SAMs, new ships, new aircraft, new submarines, new missiles and so on. New stuff everywhere while upgrading the older stuff.

T-90MS is more like a comprehensive MLU for the T-90S.
the russians know that the T-90 is just an upgrade over the 1970s tech T-72 . So they are not wasting their money on it .In fact they are saving their petro dollars for a totally new tank design. A wise choice by Russians.

About IA's choices . Less said the better. They are in a hurry to induct as many T-90s as possible before the elections come. it is a pity that the country's soldiers are put into tin cans like sardines in a can , when true latest western tech class Arjun which has exceeded T-90 and made as per it's specific GSQR is left to cool it's heels in the Shades of the Avadi.
 

ersakthivel

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have they conducted trial of this tank ??

before induction
No.

if they do it then there won't be another chance to make loads of money on '"further improving the subsystems(a euphemism for replacing junk with working electronics) with collaboration from more foreign countries".

So first they will import the tanks whose electronics were suited to the cold weather condition of Russia.

Then they will "discover :,those electronics are just malfunctioning junks in Indian desert condition just like they did on the older T-90s.

Then a host of foreign technical improvements to make it ,"state of art" will be in order.

All the while they will continue to put Arjun through " summer trials, winter trials , monsoon trials and autumn trials", and will give a grand order of 120 to it after it proves itself and excels .
 
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ersakthivel

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I wonder why the Army is going for a lesser number of tanks. But at least we know we are building decent capability against China.

Light tanks are fodder anyway.

Sikkhim is getting a new airport as well.
With these tanks India can not defend itself even against the simple anti tank mines put up by LTTE in Sirl Lanka which blew the turrets off the T-72 tanks, because of the ammunition heaped on the floor exploded with just sparks from seep through fires.

With Arjuns these rounds are safely kept in separate storage with blow off panels , SO the tank and crew has a much better chance of surviving such land mine explosions.


So I think you are just joking.

it is a tragedy that IA is packing the valiant soldiers into such obsolete platforms totally rejected by Russian Army, while heaping tons of lame excuses to stop the large scale induction of Arjun into IA.

Lying forever that most of the 40 ton classification bridges built by British can support the 50 ton T-90 and won't support 60 ton Arjun.

Infact both T-90 and Arjun will need the help of bridging equipment to cross those 40 ton class old british bridges which can be crossed without the aids of bridging equipment only by the obsolete 40 ton T-72.

The IA is already standardizing on 70 ton class bridging equipment . So both the T-90 and Arjun will use the same bridging equipment in future is a crucial fact swept under the carpet by the corrupt to core elements who are spearheading the introduction of such obsolete platforms into IA,

which will be a huge liability for decades because of their inability to store ammo safely to avoid crew killing , tank busting ammo cook-off even by a land mine explosion.

Inductions of T- 90s in to IA in high hundreds while restricting Arjun below 280 will be one of the huge scams , I hope that will be investigated by the new govt that will come into power.


We will be flogging a dead horse. Arjun was not ready when T-90 was inducted. By the time Arjun was ready, a 1000 T-90s were already operational.

T-90MS is the next iteration of T-90S like the Super MKI is to the MKI. We will obviously go for the next version. We may not go for the entire package that was showcased in Russia, but we will be taking what we can afford.

It doesn't make any sense at all to employ two different tanks. Looking at where the Arjuns are being inducted, it makes sense that none of them will see service inside enemy territory during war time. All the T-90s are in strike corps.



The new T-90MS will be used in Sikkim AFAIK. Not a place for a 60+ tonne tank. Even a vocal T-90 critic like Ajai Shukla agrees with that.

Even if we consider the 6000 crores reported in ToI is correct, T-90MS is still $14 Million cheaper than what Arjun Mk2 will cost, especially considering T-90 ammunition is more lethal.

Lastly and most importantly, there is a nationwide capability in logistics and maintenance for T-90 while Arjun has none. It is not simply a unit vs unit issue, it is about the tank being able to fit into the entire system, which the T-90 does better than Arjun. Put Arjun Mk2 into the same system as it is today, it may be considerably less lethal than even a 15 year old T-90S even if it has better specs.
While Arjun had a few shortcomings at that time , t-90 was filled with a total junk electronics which don't work in Indian hot summer conditions when it was bought even without a decent trials.Infact at the time of Induction T-90 was unfit for battle . All the facts came to light only when the mobilzation under Operation parakram triggered panic buttons in IA regarding the fouled up electronics of T-90,

Until then the inconvenient fact that T-90 was bought with no evaluation trials in Indian hot conditions was a highly guarded secret from indian taxpayers which is known only to india's enemies.

If t-90 MS can be used in Sikhim then Arjun is fully fit to be used in North East. because both will need the same bridging equipment to cross older 40 ton class bridges,

Infact with lower ground pressure per square inch Arjun is a much better option than the T-90 in North East

It is stupid to state that IA should standardize on obsolete ammo cook off T-90s while Arjun a tank developed under the GSQR of the IA which specifically insisted on safe ammo storage , with less fatigue four men crew , which resulted in the higher weight in the first place ,should be rejected because of the standardizing needs.

If Arjun is ordered in large numbers nation wide capability to support will come up. So it is a lame excuse insisting on non availability of nationwide serviceability while trying to kill the program by ordering just 240 units.

Like all contracts with Russians the true costs will be known only after decade as we are now paying through our nose to french vendors for replacing the junk electronics in T-90, and grappling with the task of integrating these new french wares with the russian ballistic and fire control systems of T-90. The insult to injury is these integration will be done the guys who built the experience on Arjun.


and with Rupee in a race to reach 100 per dollar those so and so million dollar figures quoted for T-90 will hide most of it's true high life cycle cost over the Arjun than reveal it.
 
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