Army scraps the world's largest assault rifle tender

[Bhadra]

@ersakthivel

Quoting your posts will be misuse of DFI digital space...because it contains more of foul mouthing than any thing else. You have a bad habit of killing the massager rather than the massage ... like Ravanan .. Ha Ha Ha...

IA is going to ask RFI for AR, please be ready and participate ... if you feel Excalibur meets their requirements , submit its design... IA has the right to ask for the best within the limitations of resources. IA existed much before you and shall continue to exist much after you are dismantled.. understand that.. However IA has gone to dogs since so many parasites have come in.. suckers calling themselves promoters... like my ration shop owner calling himself as my life promoter ... and then my owner ... that is what exactly happens in India ..

How are you different ????

That is the end of it ... Ha Ha Ha ....

 

[Hari Sud]

This is high time to close discussion on foreign tender for multicaliber rifle tender. This tender has been scrapped. It is all over for this kind of rifle.

Start a new thread to talk about the changed situation instead of flogging the dead horse.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel

Quoting your posts will be misuse of DFI digital space...because it contains more of foul mouthing than any thing else. You have a bad habit of killing the massager rather than the massage ... like Ravanan .. Ha Ha Ha...

IA is going to ask RFI for AR, please be ready and participate ... if you feel Excalibur meets their requirements , submit its design... IA has the right to ask for the best within the limitations of resources. IA existed much before you and shall continue to exist much after you are dismantled.. understand that.. However IA has gone to dogs since so many parasites have come in.. suckers calling themselves promoters... like my ration shop owner calling himself as my life promoter ... and then my owner ... that is what exactly happens in India ..

How are you different ????

That is the end of it ... Ha Ha Ha ....

really, I haven't killed any ,"massager" or , I have nothing to do with "massage".

DODO , Rudali, and terrain friction for tanks are all some very advanced technical words meant to be used only by Phd students like you, perhaps!!!!

The nations existence in future depends upon leveraging our scientific and technical prowess into make in india usable weapon systems. Those days of IA whose its only primary enemy was cash strapped pakistan was over many moons ago.

Now india has to take on the financial and military super power of the future -china on its own game of establishing a cutting edge mil-industry complex in record time.Otherwise China will do to us what USA did to USSR , namely destroying the enemy without firing a bullet.

because in a decade from now china will fund its future R&D for hi tech defence items from its weapon export revenue.if we still line up at the doors of MNC weapon makers ,with begging bowl ,for run of the mill items like a simple single engine 4.5th gen fighter, a modern MBT and standard Assault Rifle we will go bust keeping up with china in the coming arms race.

And with China's superior economic influence IA or IAF wont get critical parts for its combat arms from abroad in time in any future emergency.

Now china has signed a 400 billion dollar oil and gas deal with Russia. In future will Russia stand by us , in case of a conflict with china , forsaking the massive financial gains from that deal?

DODO researchers and non technical DGMF folks have no head to understand these things!!! And country's future is too precious a thing to be handed over to these motely group of senile guys who will retire in a few years time. Then a decade from now if an emergency comes they wont be coming back from retirement to save us.

So every one in any position of power is accountable fof the deeds they did or didn't. Simply a DGMF defended by few DODO researchers cant get away by saying,"I sat over on this FMBT GSQR thing for a decade, couldn't give specs, so I called a international competition to suggest me what are most cost effective , combat effective specs for a medium MBT " and get away with it. Got it?

Also how can the present lot in DGMF guarantee that the winning designer of FRCV will hand over all critical Tech with IP rights to IA just for the sake of prize money?

has he got iron clad guarantees for that from those MNC tank makers? if not on what authority this lot is taking a whole nation for a ride?



guys in IA and DGMF taking their own sweet time and playing hobby hour with umpteen GSQR revisions for MBTs and FMBTs(and importing inferior weapon systems with lower standards ) , and RFIs for mars tech FRCV are over.

Ration shop or departmental stores , IA can not be a sucker for third rate imported stuff forever,

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

............................................
http://www.thetoptens.com/best-assault-rifles/

 

[jouni]

............................................
http://www.thetoptens.com/best-assault-rifles/

Nice list, AK47 on top and RK62 being of course the best of AK family, or in this case relative.

 

[Bhadra]

@ersakthivel

Again I am not quoting you useless space corrupting post...

DODO is not insulting at all... prove it is ?

Rudali means crying and fits you well as you keep crying ..

Terrain friction is prevelent as a military term which defines how easy or difficult a piece of terrain is for military operations by infantry , artillary, tanks or logistics. If you are not aware of that then leave it..

and do not bring in your obsession in each and every thread .. that is sure shot spoiler..

Learn to live without Arjun Tank... there many other good things in life ... be happy and enjoy yourself minus Arjun Tank..

 

[indiandefencefan]

Nice list, AK47 on top and RK62 being of course the best of AK family, or in this case relative.

@jouni how can you be so sure that the RK62 is the best of the AK family ?? Do you have credible evidence to back up your claim or is it just patriotic banter ?

In my opinion the new AK variants such as AK-103 and the AK-12 are superior to the Finnish rifle.

 

[jouni]

Fit and Finnish of the gun. Barrel is good, the base of gun is made from one single steel block. We are a small country, we must produce quality weapons which last seventy years. Indian and Russian rifles are mass produced, they are not even meant to last over 20 to 30 yesrs.

Of course you can debate about caliber, range lack of picatinny....but they are trivial. If you get RK immedistely when you touch it, you know you can give it to your grandson some day. Other AKs are just rattling clumsy mass produced short lifespan weapons. @indiandefencefan

But who knows, maybe AK-12 will be the new base our future RK will be designed after 2030...

 

[The enlightened]

We bought 500 Scars for our special forces, then we have 20000 RK 95s for other top units, 350000 RK62s for standard rifle and 200000 Chinese and east german surplus AKs for reserve and secondary troups. Why you need to buy over 1 million new?

We don't have the option of calling in Uncle Sam the second we get invaded by enemy forces. That's why

 

[pmaitra]

Fit and Finnish of the gun. Barrel is good, the base of gun is made from one single steel block. We are a small country, we must produce quality weapons which last seventy years. Indian and Russian rifles are mass produced, they are not even meant to last over 20 to 30 yesrs.

Of course you can debate about caliber, range lack of picatinny....but they are trivial. If you get RK immedistely when you touch it, you know you can give it to your grandson some day. Other AKs are just rattling clumsy mass produced short lifespan weapons. @indiandefencefan

But who knows, maybe AK-12 will be the new base our future RK will be designed after 2030...

Thanks for sharing.

Want to see it done faster?

INSAS AR


Here is a slower one, and this also shows the parts more clearly:
The uploader is a soldier in the Indian Army and is from the state of Manipur.

 

[pmaitra]

INSAS LMG

The uploader is a soldier in the Indian Army and is from the state of Manipur.

Firing the INSAS LMG in fully-auto mode:


Man in action, Balraj SIngh Randhawa, liked it. He said, "it was awesome."

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel

Again I am not quoting you useless space corrupting post...

DODO is not insulting at all... prove it is ?

Rudali means crying and fits you well as you keep crying ..

Terrain friction is prevelent as a military term which defines how easy or difficult a piece of terrain is for military operations by infantry , artillary, tanks or logistics. If you are not aware of that then leave it..

and do not bring in your obsession in each and every thread .. that is sure shot spoiler..

Learn to live without Arjun Tank... there many other good things in life ... be happy and enjoy yourself minus Arjun Tank..

In tanks what matters in ground pressure, (load per square inch), gradient climbing and power to weight ratio, zero ingress water fording etc, etc, In all specs Arjun leads T-90.

 

[Bhadra]

@pmaitra

There are ways of firing each weapon .. some have only one way due to their sheer weight....

Those ways are called positions.

LMGs are fired for effect from lying positions and not from standing or sitting or kneeling positions. In lying position, with bipods on ground or bipods folded on sand bag / other support...very rarely from standing position when used in anti aircraft role... and that too with proper pole support..

LMG firing is considered so important that ordinance exist in the form of Triangular tripods for fixing the LMG to attain accuracy and stability..

firing in assault role while going towards target is also rare and done in different ways as LMG and Rifle groups are supposed to go ahead with fire and move.

LMG will not be fired the way your videos demonstrate ... those are stupid heroics.. having no meaning.. I mean no military value except entertainment for DODOs... If I were to be a military commander and my LMG number fires the entire magazine in one go except under rare circumstances... I would bloody court martial that guy.. let that be very clear even to the firer ... besides you ..

Do not teach military the tactics ..leave it alone... we do not have and do not want cowboys in military.. we have a time tested fully proved methos and no one will fire LMG like that in combat ... period.

By the way what was intended to be demonstrated.... by those macho videos??

No one uses and likes INSAS LMG in Indian forces. People prefer 7.62 LMG... still today the weapon remains part of IA ...

That is the holy crap I am and perhaps IA is worried about ... Rifle 5.56, LMG - 7.62. Carbine and pistol - 9mm

Where is universality - none of these weapons can be cut out ... a man lifting about 24 kgs can not be burdened with additional 4.5 kg in rifle plus ammunition. He needs a pistol as his personal weapon... so on and so forth..

A commander needs an intermediary weapon with very heavy volume of fire for CQB...

The idea of INSAS was to adopt 5.56 calibre as common ammunition for LMG, AR, Carbine and possibly for pistols..

If not done, the complete idea of INSAS would be defeated..

DODO are working on it since cows came home .... but cowboys DODO are still researching like those videos..

Kabhi to sharam Karo...

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra

There are ways of firing each weapon .. some have only one way due to their sheer weight....

Those ways are called positions.

LMGs are fired for effect from lying positions and not from standing or sitting or kneeling positions. In lying position, with bipods on ground or bipods folded on sand bag / other support...very rarely from standing position when used in anti aircraft role... and that too with proper pole support..

LMGs are generally fired from prone position, but not necessarily. It all depends upon the situation.

I will share with you a video of real warfare, and how an LMG may be used. See from 4:30 onwards.

Spoiler: Ukrainian Civil War: PK LMG firing while standing and strafing during real combat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umcUlDrQlCM

In real warfare, you might not have the luxury of conventional firing.



Example of PK

Example of PK

LMG firing is considered so important that ordinance exist in the form of Triangular tripods for fixing the LMG to attain accuracy and stability..

I know. I have also had the opportunity to take a Bren apart, and put it back. Not that I remember it.

Here is a picture of soldiers of the British Army from India attacking a Nazi German trench. Note, one of them is using a Bren.

Example of Bren

firing in assault role while going towards target is also rare and done in different ways as LMG and Rifle groups are supposed to go ahead with fire and move.

Ok.

LMG will not be fired the way your videos demonstrate ... those are stupid heroics.. having no meaning.. I mean no military value except entertainment for DODOs... If I were to be a military commander and my LMG number fires the entire magazine in one go except under rare circumstances... I would bloody court martial that guy.. let that be very clear even to the firer ... besides you ..

The guy who said "awesome" is in civvie clothes (Balraj Singh Randhawa), so don't know about him, but the guy in the turban (Fateh Pratap Singh) is in uniform, and it looks like he (along with the other guy) knows what he is doing. Moreover, there are many more guys in uniform standing behind him. These guys, except the one in civvie clothes, are either from the Army, or the BSF, or CRPF, or some type of force. It is obvious they are at a training range. Feel free to court martial them.

Example of M249 SAW

Example of INSAS LMG (from one of the videos)

Of these two pictures just above, I daresay, the latter guy is more balanced than the former.

Do not teach military the tactics ..leave it alone... we do not have and do not want cowboys in military.. we have a time tested fully proved methos and no one will fire LMG like that in combat ... period...

I am not trying to teach you anything. I was responding to @jouni. These two guys are doing a better job at firing a powerful round 5.56 NATO (more powerful than those used by NATO countries), and they are doing a better job than I did when I fired the KRISS Vector in full auto, and standing, under the supervision of a range officer, who is former US military.

If I need to be taught, I know people I can reach out to.

By the way what was intended to be demonstrated.... by those macho videos??

Nothing that ought to concern you.

No one uses and likes INSAS LMG in Indian forces. People prefer 7.62 LMG... still today the weapon remains part of IA ...

I am not aware of any survey conducted by anyone that says "no one uses and likes INSAS LMG in Indian forces." Of course, that claim—no one uses—is obviously untrue.

That is the holy crap I am and perhaps IA is worried about ... Rifle 5.56, LMG - 7.62. Carbine and pistol - 9mm

Where is universality - none of these weapons can be cut out ... a man lifting about 24 kgs can not be burdened with additional 4.5 kg in rifle plus ammunition. He needs a pistol as his personal weapon... so on and so forth..

A commander needs an intermediary weapon with very heavy volume of fire for CQB...

The idea of INSAS was to adopt 5.56 calibre as common ammunition for LMG, AR, Carbine and possibly for pistols..

If not done, the complete idea of INSAS would be defeated..

DODO are working on it since cows came home .... but cowboys DODO are still researching like those videos..

Kabhi to sharam Karo...

Nothing to respond to this portion of the long and winding post.

 

[Redhawk]

The old FN FAL was the best rifle used in the post-war Western world. Although it is not an assault rifle (Sturmgewehr) but a so-called battle rifle, it was the most reliable, the simplest to maintain, and had a high mortality rate of those human targets that were hit by the 7.62mm NATO round the FN FAL fired. And its companion general-purpose machine-gun, the FN MAG, naturally also in 7.62mm NATO, was the best machine-gun of its type used anywhere. The FN family of post-war 7.62mm NATO rifles and machine-guns were easily the best Western military small arms in use and I wouldn't give tuppence ha'penny for any rifle or machine-gun that fired the trifling, completely lacking 5.56mm/0.223in. round.

The Indian armed forces should retain their hard-hitting, high-mortality-rate-producing British/Commonwealth versions the 7.62mm NATO FN FAL (with the specifications dimensioned and the rifle engineered in imperial units, i.e. inches and fractions of an inch, not metric units, i.e. millimetres, as was the original FN FAL dimensioned and engineered), the L1A1 self-loading rifle (SLR), and the British/Commonwealth version of the 7.62mm NATO FN MAG general-purpose machine-gun, the L7A1/L7A2 (GPMG). The whole small-calibre phenomenon, which goes back to the early 1960's and then to the mid-1960's when the fighting arms of the U.S. armed forces were engaged in the Vietnam War, was change merely for the sake of change, because the old 7.62mm NATO round and the weapons that fired full-powered miltary cartridges were considered démodé because they didn't fit the then-in-vogue 1960's' "space-age," "as-modern-as-tomorrow" image.

 

[ersakthivel]

@pmaitra

There are ways of firing each weapon .. some have only one way due to their sheer weight....

Those ways are called positions.

LMGs are fired for effect from lying positions and not from standing or sitting or kneeling positions. In lying position, with bipods on ground or bipods folded on sand bag / other support...very rarely from standing position when used in anti aircraft role... and that too with proper pole support..

LMG firing is considered so important that ordinance exist in the form of Triangular tripods for fixing the LMG to attain accuracy and stability..

firing in assault role while going towards target is also rare and done in different ways as LMG and Rifle groups are supposed to go ahead with fire and move.

LMG will not be fired the way your videos demonstrate ... those are stupid heroics.. having no meaning.. I mean no military value except entertainment for DODOs... If I were to be a military commander and my LMG number fires the entire magazine in one go except under rare circumstances... I would bloody court martial that guy.. let that be very clear even to the firer ... besides you ..

Do not teach military the tactics ..leave it alone... we do not have and do not want cowboys in military.. we have a time tested fully proved methos and no one will fire LMG like that in combat ... period.

By the way what was intended to be demonstrated.... by those macho videos??


That is the holy crap I am and perhaps IA is worried about ... Rifle 5.56, LMG - 7.62. Carbine and pistol - 9mm

Where is universality - none of these weapons can be cut out ... a man lifting about 24 kgs can not be burdened with additional 4.5 kg in rifle plus ammunition. He needs a pistol as his personal weapon... so on and so forth..

A commander needs an intermediary weapon with very heavy volume of fire for CQB...

The idea of INSAS was to adopt 5.56 calibre as common ammunition for LMG, AR, Carbine and possibly for pistols..

If not done, the complete idea of INSAS would be defeated..

DODO are working on it since cows came home .... but cowboys DODO are still researching like those videos..

Kabhi to sharam Karo...

"No one uses and likes INSAS LMG in Indian forces. People prefer 7.62 LMG... still today the weapon remains part of IA ..."

Once again dont palm off your personal motivated opinion as IA opinion.

 

[rock127]

IA should go for .303. they are ealisly available in various junkyard and guess what, they dont need tender for that

Sorry but I STRONGLY DISAGREE... what we can get in time is the below 3 versions:-

1. Multi barrel Mini-Gun
2. Sniper Cum Assault Rifle with Balloon launcher with extra magazine.
3. Pistol with extra ammo magazine.

The tenders should be closed within 1 month and deployed within 1 next month across borders.It can create terror among enemies.

 

[pmaitra]

The old FN FAL was the best rifle used in the post-war Western world. Although it is not an assault rifle (Sturmgewehr) but a so-called battle rifle, it was the most reliable, the simplest to maintain, and had a high mortality rate of those human targets that were hit by the 7.62mm NATO round the FN FAL fired. And its companion general-purpose machine-gun, the FN MAG, naturally also in 7.62mm NATO, was the best machine-gun of its type used anywhere. The FN family of post-war 7.62mm NATO rifles and machine-guns were easily the best Western military small arms in use and I wouldn't give tuppence ha'penny for any rifle or machine-gun that fired the trifling, completely lacking 5.56mm/0.223in. round.

The Indian armed forces should retain their hard-hitting, high-mortality-rate-producing British/Commonwealth versions the 7.62mm NATO FN FAL (with the specifications dimensioned and the rifle engineered in imperial units, i.e. inches and fractions of an inch, not metric units, i.e. millimetres, as was the original FN FAL dimensioned and engineered), the L1A1 self-loading rifle (SLR), and the British/Commonwealth version of the 7.62mm NATO FN MAG general-purpose machine-gun, the L7A1/L7A2 (GPMG). The whole small-calibre phenomenon, which goes back to the early 1960's and then to the mid-1960's when the fighting arms of the U.S. armed forces were engaged in the Vietnam War, was change merely for the sake of change, because the old 7.62mm NATO round and the weapons that fired full-powered miltary cartridges were considered démodé because they didn't fit the then-in-vogue 1960's' "space-age," "as-modern-as-tomorrow" image.

I agree with most of your post.

I did not get that imperial units part. I can say 1 mile or 1.59 kilometres, but in either case, it is the same distance.

 

[Redhawk]

I agree with most of your post.

I did not get that imperial units part. I can say 1 mile or 1.59 kilometres, but in either case, it is the same distance.

Well to begin with, the following excerpt (shown in bold type) on the units in which the British/Commonwealth version of the FN FAL, the L1A1 SLR, was dimensioned and engineered was inserted for informational purposes only:

The Indian armed forces should retain their hard-hitting, high-mortality-rate-producing British/Commonwealth versions the 7.62mm NATO FN FAL (with the specifications dimensioned and the rifle engineered in imperial units, i.e. inches and fractions of an inch, not metric units, i.e. millimetres, as was the original FN FAL dimensioned and engineered), the L1A1 self-loading rifle (SLR), and the British/Commonwealth version of the 7.62mm NATO FN MAG general-purpose machine-gun, the L7A1/L7A2 (GPMG).

Whether metric or imperial units were employed in dimensioning and engineering the weapons is quite immaterial. It is just that back in the 1950s and early 1960s when the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield began producing the L1A1 SLR, the British version of the FN FAL, everything was done in imperial units, as were the L1A1 SLRs produced in other Commonwealth countries, as the imperial system was the normal (and legal) system of weights and measures for engineering back then.

(Much to the chagrin of many engineers in English-speaking countries who greatly preferred the metric system to imperial. Metric is clearly a much better system for engineering than imperial. The American auto industry, for example, adopted metric in the early 1970s and all U.S.-made motor vehicles made from about 1973 onwards have been dimensioned and engineered in metric.)

So there were effectively two versions of the FN FAL out there in the wider world, the original Belgian (metric) version and its other national versions and derivatives made under licence from FN, and the British/Commonwealth (imperial) version made in the UK and in other Commonwealth countries, e.g. the Long Branch Arsenal in Ontario, Canada, the Lithgow Small Arms Factory in New South Wales, Australia, etc. I mentioned it for the sake of adding information and background to my post.

By the way, 1 mile is not 1.59 kilometres; it is 1.609 kilometres, or: 1,609 metres.

 

[Redhawk]

Not that I am trying to promote use of the metric system at all. But one ought to remember to: