Army may scrap FMBT and focus on Arjun

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
Arjun MK-2 chassis is a 7 wheeler, It Chassis can be shorten to 6-5 Wheels..

The turret of Arjun MK-1 was modified on Tank EX, Tank EX turret had lighter version of Kanchan Armour and it weight same as T-90S turret made in India..

So getting a 50ton tank from Original tank Arjun MK-1 can be done..

------------------------------------------

What is interesting that there are no 100% specs yet released from Army about FMBT..

What we know >>

1. 120mm smooth-bore..
2. 1500hp Engine..
3. Possibly a Auto-loader..
4. Nearly a 50ton tank..

So we have to wait, for more specs released from Army..

The appropriate Question then will be from where. Can you please elaborate? Would be glad to be corrected.
 

DivineHeretic

New Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,153
Likes
1,897
Country flag
Arjun MK-2 chassis is a 7 wheeler, It Chassis can be shorten to 6-5 Wheels..

The turret of Arjun MK-1 was modified on Tank EX, Tank EX turret had lighter version of Kanchan Armour and it weight same as T-90S turret made in India..

So getting a 50ton tank from Original tank Arjun MK-1 can be done..

------------------------------------------

What is interesting that there are no 100% specs yet released from Army about FMBT..

What we know >>

1. 120mm smooth-bore..
2. 1500hp Engine..
3. Possibly a Auto-loader..
4. Nearly a 50ton tank..

So we have to wait, for more specs released from Army..
Thanks a ton. I hadn't thought of reducing the chassis length. But then the presence of the autoloader will eliminate the need for the 4th crew member, so that alone will save roughly 12tons of armour needed to protect him.
But will the lighter armor be capable of absorbing the impact of the new gen and next gen AT rounds, particularly the long rods and the DU munitions? Or will defense be largely left to the APS?
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
There are new break through in Armour technologies in Western countries as well as in India..

New material are used in making of newer lighter Armour, Which are more or less same as there heavy weight counterparts hence giving same protection..


There are also, Addons which are simply attached to exterior of the tank such as Advance ERA tiles and Modules of Armour, Which enhance protection..

APS both hard and soft also play there role..
 

DivineHeretic

New Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,153
Likes
1,897
Country flag
There are new break through in Armour technologies in Western countries as well as in India..

New material are used in making of newer lighter Armour, Which are more or less same as there heavy weight counterparts hence giving same protection..


There are also, Addons which are simply attached to exterior of the tank such as Advance ERA tiles and Modules of Armour, Which enhance protection..

APS both hard and soft also play there role..
It is well known that tandem warhead shape charges like the RPG-29 can neutralise the protective effect of ERA, so they not the final word as far as passive protection is concerned IMHO. Also to introduce armor module addon to an already heavy MBT, it will require the tank to be designed to take this new load without disturbing the centre of gravity too much.,which would cause the tanks to not be able to clear the high sand dunes we see in the thar desert.
Add to that the fact that landmine clearing equipment might need to be fitted to the lead tanks,it might cause considerable loss in mobility in a fire satuarated environment.
On the other point that the FMBT tanks might be minus one wheel on both sides, will it not reduce the area of the tracks in contact with the ground, thereby increasing ground pressure,about 14-15% . That will be suicidal in the plains of punjab where the land can be turn to swamp after a rainstorm.
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
It is well known that tandem warhead shape charges like the RPG-29 can neutralise the protective effect of ERA,
There is allready avaiable ERA with anti-tandem capabilities, like Ukrainian "Dublet", it's single layer version "Knife" also is claimed to have some limited anti-tandem capabilities.
 

DivineHeretic

New Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,153
Likes
1,897
Country flag
There is allready avaiable ERA with anti-tandem capabilities, like Ukrainian "Dublet", it's single layer version "Knife" also is claimed to have some limited anti-tandem capabilities.
The duplet is quite heavy at 400-500kg per square metre. So for a big tank like Arjun it would add significantly to the weight of the tank, which would be difficult as the army has specified that the tank must be about 50 tons
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
The duplet is quite heavy at 400-500kg per square metre. So for a big tank like Arjun it would add significantly to the weight of the tank, which would be difficult as the army has specified that the tank must be about 50 tons
You can reduce Arjun weight by reducing internal volume, especially for crew. To reduce crew compartment volume without reducing their comfort, you would need to put in turret bustle autoloader, and rearrange overall vehicle interior, more compact engine would also be a nice thing. So it is possible, but in the end it means a completely new tank, however that can be based on allready developed Arjun components which would reduce R&D costs, risk and time.
 

Austin

New Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
852
Likes
363
A FMBT with 50T will necessarily mean you will have to go with a new design and opting for integrated Armour/ERA approach and 3 man crew with autoloader.

Thats the only way they can get down and not by redesigning the current Arjun tank but they can certainly reuse Arjun components and most importantly the experience from the program
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
There is no such issue, you study Various Leo2a4 upgrades with addon Armour modules, The tank mobility is not effected, the package is more or less 2 tons..

There will be problem regarding attaching land mine clearing equipment..

As long as you have wider tracks and Wheel proportional to it, your ground pressure will always lower..

Also to introduce armor module addon to an already heavy MBT, it will require the tank to be designed to take this new load without disturbing the centre of gravity too much.,which would cause the tanks to not be able to clear the high sand dunes we see in the thar desert.

Add to that the fact that landmine clearing equipment might need to be fitted to the lead tanks,it might cause considerable loss in mobility in a fire satuarated environment.

On the other point that the FMBT tanks might be minus one wheel on both sides, will it not reduce the area of the tracks in contact with the ground, thereby increasing ground pressure,about 14-15% . That will be suicidal in the plains of punjab where the land can be turn to swamp after a rainstorm.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
Why you need to start from beginning for such modifications which can be done with available design ?

A FMBT with 50T will necessarily mean you will have to go with a new design and opting for integrated Armour/ERA approach and 3 man crew with autoloader.
 

Austin

New Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
852
Likes
363
You cant make a big tank like Arjun which is in 60 + Ton class into max 50 Ton tank just mearly making cosmetic changes.

Making changes like 3 man crew , autoloader means you have to go to the drawing board as these are not small but major changes , then you have to cater for integral armour , APS , Electronics ,Engines, Cooling and all things that go into the tank all custom built that takes into account weight and volume consideration.

Arjun design cannot be made into FMBT , much like you cant make a T-90 design bigger and convert into Arjun or Abrams class big tanks by add one more wheel and bigger turret etc , what they can best do is reuse some components like MG , FCS , EO stuff but FMBT will be a different ball game a clean seat design if they are serious of not more than 50 T design.

Even DRDO chief mentioned that bigger and heavy tank affects manouveribiltiy , funny after all the internal study the Army and DRDO must have done for futuristic tank they think 50 T is what they should aim at.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
Any kind of change needs a drawing board, Right now one can install auto-loader and a new turret on Arjun MK-1..

Tank EX design was able to remove auto-loader and made space of 4 crew member, Its not a big deal..


You cant make a big tank like Arjun which is in 60 + Ton class into max 50 Ton tank just merely making cosmetic changes.

Making changes like 3 man crew , autoloader means you have to go to the drawing board as these are not small but major changes , then you have to cater for integral armour , APS , Electronics ,Engines, Cooling and all things that go into the tank all custom built that takes into account weight and volume consideration.

Arjun design cannot be made into FMBT , much like you cant make a T-90 design bigger and convert into Arjun or Abrams class big tanks by add one more wheel and bigger turret etc , what they can best do is reuse some components like MG , FCS , EO stuff but FMBT will be a different ball game a clean seat design if they are serious of not more than 50 T design.

Even DRDO chief mentioned that bigger and heavy tank affects manouveribiltiy , funny after all the internal study the Army and DRDO must have done for futuristic tank they think 50 T is what they should aim at.
 

shuvo@y2k10

New Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
2,653
Likes
6,710
Country flag
well if you make a 50 ton tank it is impossible to armour it upto the level of 67 ton arjun mk2 in the face of rapidly advancing armour technology.also in the next 10 years we would be developing a tank which doesn't even have the armour protection of a arjun mk2.also in the other forum of arjun mbt and arjun vs t90 forum i saw some foreign members have developed 3d models of arjun from different photographs(taken at different times),calculated its armour protection level and declared its armour and rifled gun as obsolete.let me remind them rifled gun is demanded by the army mainly enabling to fire hesh rounds from arjun's developers and it is one of the most accurate and powerful gun in the world(arde l52) and i am pretty sure that in the mk2 level if some of the arjun's engineers are to be beleived(yes i am friends with some of them) will have better/equal accuracy,range ,armour piercing capabilities than l55 german gun which has become quite famous.also indian army has tested arjun against t-90 and t-72 in terms of armour,manuverabiliy and firing,suspension etc and arjun has emerged with flying colours.it was like comparing tata safari to tata nano.even with modern era arjun can cut through the armour of those tin cans like knife through a butter.speaking of armour kanchan armour alone is sufficient to withstand point blank range hits from 105mm rcl.t-72 ,t-90 even with modern israeli fsapds rounds,close range rpg-7(proved in the experimental trials).and this was 10 years ago.as far as i remember those nato tanks has hard ime in iraq with point blank range rpg-29 even though they tried to suppress th news but it still came out.same is the case of tin cans in the 2nd chenchnian wars.since then kanchan has undergone monumental change and in mk2 version it is even better than nato mbts.also drdo has done a smart thing and developed hybrid armour by adding layers of kanchan,nera,era etc to provide full proof protection against modern atgm which uses tandem warheads.indian army sounds like a fool when it says arjun cannot manuver in punjab.given the ground pressure of arjun is less than t-90 and t-72 they have a bigger chance of getting stuck in marshy land than arjun in punjab.indian army would be a fool if it doesn't make arjun mk3 it's fmbt.
 
Last edited:

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
well if you make a 50 ton tank it is impossible to armour it upto the level of 67 ton arjun mk2 in the face of rapidly advancing armour technology.
Wrong, weight have nohing to do with protection.

also in the next 10 years we would be developing a tank which doesn't even have the armour protection of a arjun mk2.
Why, because it would be lighter?

DARPA made a concept document where they designed a 55 tons tank with a protection superior to anyother currently used design, there was also smaller 50 tons version with even grater protection. Weight have nothing to do with protection.

let me remind them rifled gun is demanded by the army mainly enabling to fire hesh rounds from arjun's developers and it is one of the most accurate and powerful gun in the world(arde l52) and i am pretty sure that in the mk2 level if some of the arjun's engineers are to be beleived(yes i am friends with some of them) will have better/equal accuracy,range ,armour piercing capabilities than l55 german gun which has become quite famous.
:pound:

Completely unrealistic fantasy... but like they say, reality is one thing, and fantasy is another.

even with modern era arjun can cut through the armour of those tin cans like knife through a butter.speaking of armour kanchan armour alone is sufficient to withstand point blank range hits from 105mm rcl.
1) You have no proof. No to mention that you do not understand working mechanism principle of ERA and how it interacts with projectile.
2) If armor can protect against 105mm RCL, and acting like this is some kind of superior protection is just pathetic.

as far as i remember those nato tanks has hard ime in iraq with point blank range rpg-29 even though they tried to suppress th news but it still came out.
Well if poorly educated people do not even know what about the whole deal was.

American M1 tanks were hit by RPG-29's in the front armor, without any effect, but the side turret and hull hits close to 90 degrees angle, were able to perforate armor, simply because armor there is thinner, and have slightly different composition.

Challenger 2 was hit in the lower front hull plate which is made only from steel, it was protected then by simple ERA (ROMOR-A type), which does not offered protection against such threats, after the incident, ROMOR-A had been replaced with bolt on Dorchester armor module.

But if people talk about things they do not have even smalles idea, this what comes up, a tons of BS.

same is the case of tin cans in the 2nd chenchnian wars
During 2nd Chechnya war, T-72B tanks were surprisingly survivable, but what you can know about this, eh?

since then kanchan has undergone monumental change and in mk2 version it is even better than m1a2sep abrams(according to some engineers).
:pound:

Americans have 69 years of experience with composite armors, the armor protection of M1 was changed approx 4-6 times to improve, and then we have guys, that only recently developed such thing and they claim about superiority over people that are working with such things for a much longer time.

The first tank ever tested with composite armor was American M4A2 Sherman with HCR2 modular composite armor package.

I wonder what will be next, that we all are different, stupider spiecies? :rolleyes:

BTW How do they know their creation is superior? Did they ever made a comparrision ballistic tests with other tanks used world wide? Of course no, so such claims are nothimg more than empty propaganda.

also drdo has done a smart thing and developed hybrid armour by adding layers of kanchan,nera,era etc to provide full proof protection against modern atgm which uses tandem warheads.
Yeah, you cinsider as ultramodern things, that are known to NATO and former Soviet Union from the cold war times, when countries like Germany or USA are starting to play with nanotechnology.

Well it seems that you like to delude yourself eh?
 
Last edited:

Austin

New Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
852
Likes
363
even with modern era arjun can cut through the armour of those tin cans like knife through a butter.speaking of armour kanchan armour alone is sufficient to withstand point blank range hits from 105mm rcl.

since then kanchan has undergone monumental change and in mk2 version it is even better than m1a2sep abrams(according to some engineers).
Mk2 better than M1A2 SEP .....what ever you smoke let us know its potent :rofl:
 

p2prada

New Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
No idea what IA and CVRDE are planning. Hopefully they are looking at what the Russians are working on for reference and can come up with a new design of their own.

An iterative re-design of the Arjun for reduced weight of 50 tonnes or a new design. We need to wait and watch.

Logic dictates, a 50 tonne Arjun will simply be a new design.
 

Austin

New Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
852
Likes
363
Logic dictates, a 50 tonne Arjun will simply be a new design.
That is what my thought process is because if you want any thing under 50 T or approx those values +- 1T then you will have to go for an integrated ERA + Composite Armour layout ( T-90 style ) may be much better then T-90 but the lay out will be same as composite armour tends to be heavy over ERA , it cant be an afterthought like they did with Arjun Mk2 slapping ERA on and making it 2 T heavy.

Then there is the entire 3 man crew ,autoloader , APS , EO , perhaps even light ERA on turret Sides and back , AC , APS , Perhaps even a Turret Bustle to keep complete isolation of Crew and Armour etc

I am sure there are different ideas or newer ones in crew protection and safety ....A clean slate design gives you complete freedom to implement those without carrying legacy stuff around
 

p2prada

New Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
I am sure there are different ideas or newer ones in crew protection and safety ....A clean slate design gives you complete freedom to implement those without carrying legacy stuff around
The Russians designed a behemoth like Obj 195 and still kept it under 55 tonnes. That's something to think about. All the weight savings in the unmanned turret and new hull designs should solve a lot of problems.

it cant be an afterthought like they did with Arjun Mk2 slapping ERA on and making it 2 T heavy.
I suppose Arjun Mk2 prototype has more ERA bricks than T-90S.
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
The Russians designed a behemoth like Obj 195 and still kept it under 55 tonnes. That's something to think about. All the weight savings in the unmanned turret and new hull designs should solve a lot of problems.
Yanks also had a lot of interesting ideas, if you will have opprotunity, try to get Richard Hunnicutt's book Abrams A History Of The American Main Battle Tank volume 2, at the end of the book, there is plenty of concept drawings from TACOM, TARDEC and DARPA of their FMBT's, a lot of things to think about.

Also the DARPA project of FMBT in 4 configurations, configuration 1 weighted 50 tons, configuration 2 weighted 55 tons and both had 1,300mm thick frontal armor, that thing was in it's concept form probably better protected than even Object 195.
 

Articles

Top