Arjun vs T90 MBT

[cloud_9]

Ok it seems I need to use a different words... concrete is a shit not protection against shaped charges

I mean if you are talking about the Flexural Strength of reinforced concrete it's not that bad.Better than toolbox made of steel sheet ?

 

[ersakthivel]

Ok it seems I need to use a different words... concrete is a shit not protection against shaped charges, now it is understandable?

And HEAT does not mean it use heat, damn how many times it need to be explained? HEAT means High Explosive Anti Tank, not that it uses heat, or molten metal, or any other crazy theory.

Seriously the more and more I discuss with you people, it seems that the only thing that could open your eyes, would a be a damn live firing test, maybe then you would understood.

This is your declaration in post no-838 in link
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-56.html

Oh yes, I do not designed tank, but I'am educating my self about all tank designs, because I want to write about them, and I'm not hiding a fact that I'am not tank designers.

On the other hand I use arguments, I analise designs, I at least try to use proofs.

What are You using? Insults? Rage because someone have different opinion.

You are nothing more than a stupid teenager (mentaly, I don't care how old phisically You are).

Once again I ask moderators to do something with that person, he is doing nothing more than trolling.

So you don't design tanks and you just read about them like all of us over the net.Then why such a superiority complex?

With this level of knowledge when you say I can measure the thickness of tank side turret side armor just by seeing a couple of photographs over the net is really incredulous.

With a declaration like this you need not punch far above your weight.

So this is your true level.Plesase dont make us unlearn everything we learned about tanks by the time you finished your learning and start writing

 

[Damian]

I mean if you are talking about the Flexural Strength of reinforced concrete it's not that bad.Better than toolbox made of steel sheet ?

Listen, both, concrete and toolbox are bad protection, both against kinetic energy and shaped charge projectiles. Seriously people, in Europe during World War II these solutions were tested as addon armor, and none worked, same goes for sand bags, and other improvised protection solutions, it just don't work, and increase unnececary weight of vehicle. o and read why General Patton, after consulting this with guys from maintnance of his army, completely banned use of such improvised solutions, The only really working solutions, was to cut out armor plates from disabled or destroyed tanks, and weld them to the base armor of still functional tanks.

With a declaration like this you need not punch far above your weight.

So this is your true level.Plesase dont make us unlearn everything we learned about tanks by the time you finished your learning and start writing

Oh seriously, and what you do in this subject? Do you even want to do something about tanks in your life? I want, to write about them proffesional books some day, to talk with engineers, soldiers, any many other things.

So yeah, I have a damn right for such declarations, because the last 10 years of my life, I was doing nothing else than educating myself and gaining knowledge about tanks and other AFV's.

When you are still on Discovery Channel level, which is pitifull, I am reading books, of known and respect authors.

But I know you are butthurt, with your ego, you can't accept that someone else, especially non Indian, can have greater knwowledge in this subject than you. Am I right?

Then why such a superiority complex?

Oh, so now it is a superiority complex? And what did you know about tanks, before you started to talking with me? Nothing besides this popular bollocks spread all over TV and the internet.

I said it, and I will repeat it, start reading the damn books.

With this level of knowledge when you say I can measure the thickness of tank side turret side armor just by seeing a couple of photographs over the net is really incredulous.

But there are many people much better educated than you and me, and they do even more, Mr. Paul Lakowski for example, made many interesting calculations of composite armor protection based on scientific data for different materials. And he is not designing tanks, so what, you will say he also should not do this? Because he never saw internal structure of these armors? Neither he knows their real composition?

But hey, a lesser men also did not believed that earth revolves around sun, and that earth is not flat.

This is typical, that people who deeply believe in to some dogmats, have a hard time to understand a different opinion, point of view, or that someone else might have greater knowledge, and can by observation, understood much more.

The other interesting thing, is that you are spending whole day, on reading all my posts, and searching, where you can attack, which in itself, shows stupidity.

 

[ersakthivel]

Listen, both, concrete and toolbox are bad protection, both against kinetic energy and shaped charge projectiles. Seriously people, in Europe during World War II these solutions were tested as addon armor, and none worked, same goes for sand bags, and other improvised protection solutions, it just don't work, and increase unnececary weight of vehicle. o and read why General Patton, after consulting this with guys from maintnance of his army, completely banned use of such improvised solutions, The only really working solutions, was to cut out armor plates from disabled or destroyed tanks, and weld them to the base armor of still functional tanks.



Oh seriously, and what you do in this subject? Do you even want to do something about tanks in your life? I want, to write about them proffesional books some day, to talk with engineers, soldiers, any many other things.

So yeah, I have a damn right for such declarations, because the last 10 years of my life, I was doing nothing else than educating myself and gaining knowledge about tanks and other AFV's.

When you are still on Discovery Channel level, which is pitifull, I am reading books, of known and respect authors.

But I know you are butthurt, with your ego, you can't accept that someone else, especially non Indian, can have greater knwowledge in this subject than you. Am I right?

Kunal said concrete was used in 1971 in other tanks. Arjun would use something else in the cavity like RHA plate or compositearmor.So why this unnecessary debate?

 

[Damian]

Kunal said concrete was used in 1971 in other tanks. Arjun would use something else in the cavity like RHA plate or compositearmor.So why this unnecessary debate?

Oh maybe because he suggested that concrete might be used there. Seriously, are you really, unable to read with understanding?

As for using RHA in these storage boxes, it would create a simple spaced armor, not really efficent. perhaps effective only against smaller and simpler HEAT warheads and HESH. As for composite armor, the problem is if you wish to lost such composite armor, the forces acting during penetration process on this box can be really big and violent, which means that box can be ripped off it's attachements, and I do not believe that these attachements are solid enough. Besides this, how this armor would work inside? You think that if you put inside a composite armor it will be all fine? And how it will be attached to internal structure of the box? What about it's working mechanism? It will work properly in such box? What if this is a reactive type of composite armor? Will that box have enough strong structure to hold in one piece when armor will start to move, because yeah, such types of composite armors, starts to move their layers when penetration process starts.

There are so many issues and problems to be solved, that seeing your naive posts, I am certain you don't even realize how many of them there are.

 

[pmaitra]

Ok it seems I need to use a different words... concrete is a shit not protection against shaped charges, now it is understandable?

I don't know; I don't have much experience working with shit. Perhaps you do.

And HEAT does not mean it use heat, damn how many times it need to be explained? HEAT means High Explosive Anti Tank, not that it uses heat, or molten metal, or any other crazy theory.

Quoting for the record.

Ok, so HEAT does not produce heat. So you are saying it a cryogenic munition? Ever wonder why I wrote 'heat' in small and 'HEAT' in caps?

And thank you for giving me the full form of HEAT, I did not know it.

Seriously the more and more I discuss with you people, it seems that the only thing that could open your eyes, would a be a damn live firing test, maybe then you would understood.

The more I debate with you, the more inane it gets.

 

[Damian]

I don't know; I don't have much experience working with shit. Perhaps you do.

Quoting for the record.

Ok, so HEAT does not produce heat. So you are saying it a cryogenic munition? Ever wonder why I wrote 'heat' in small and 'HEAT' in caps?

And thank you for giving me the full form of HEAT, I did not know it.

Of course it's produce some heat/temperature, but heat is not the armor penetrating mechanism of this ammunition. I provided you a document, written by people from the US Armed Forces, where it is explained, I suppose you do not read these documents, why should you afterall. I have a strong suspicion that Indians would deny anything, what white men will say, am I right?

The more I debate with you, the more inane it gets.

It is allways when ignorants do not understand what the other side of the barricade want to say. But let it be, Indians do not like to listen what white people want to say, ok, but don't be surprised later, that in military technology you will never be on par with us, as we were allways, best in this due to the number of wars we went through. And this is fortunetely or not, a fact.

And don't take this as some rascist BS, because it is not intended as rascist. It is merely a fact. Especially that many people from my country or other western countries, have neutral or friendly relations with Indians.

 

[pmaitra]

Of course it's produce some heat/temperature, but heat is not the armor penetrating mechanism of this ammunition. I provided you a document, written by people from the US Armed Forces, where it is explained, I suppose you do not read these documents, why should you afterall. I have a strong suspicion that Indians would deny anything, what white men will say, am I right?

Your document is weak.

Ok, I am just kidding and I learnt this from you. I will surely read them.

It is allways when ignorants do not understand what the other side of the barricade want to say. But let it be, Indians do not like to listen what white people, ok, but don't be surprised later, that in military technology you will never be on par with us, as we were allways, best in this due to the number of wars we went through. And this is fortunetely or not, a fact.

And don't take this as some rascist BS, because it is not intended as rascist. It is merely a fact.

Not at all. If you see, I have plenty of friends who have seen active service in Iraq and Afghanistan. Personally, I have a science degree, like most people in DFI. I am just not willing to buy statements like "no heat is produced," or "copper does not melt."

 

[Damian]

Personally, I have a science degree, like most people in DFI. I am just not willing to buy statements like "no heat is produced," or "copper does not melt."

Ok so the other way. In case of shaped charge warheads, the shaped charge jet/stream, is by scientists who work with these things, neither very hot (there is some temperature but too small to melt anything, and especially so quickly), neither the jet/stream is melted either.

The whole phenomen is very weakly known, and described and most popular sources, just repeat the same mistake, that jet is a molten metal.

In fact as the document from US Army says, th jet is a solid metal, just deformed and proppeled by explosion.

Ok the other way, just think how much time is needed to melt copper and what temperature is needed, then ask again how quick is explosion, how much temperature is generated during explosion, and how quickly jet starts to move. There is just now way to can be melted.

Detailed discussions of the shaped charge concept and an extensive list of sources (too
numerous to list here) are available elsewhere, e. g., [1], [2], [3], [4]. This concept is not
well understood by people outside the warhead community. For example, the jet is not a
"cutting plasma", it is not a liquefied or molten metal jet, the cone does not impact the
armor intact, the jet temperature is not 20,000 C, and the density of the jet is not several
times that of steel, and the jet does not burn its way through armor, as reported in many
newspaper, TV, and even semi-technical journal articles. Some confusion may arise due
to the fact that shaped charge devices are sometimes called HEAT rounds. HEAT is an
acronym for High Explosive Anti-Tank and does not relate to thermal effects [4].

http://www.preterhuman.net/texts/te...ped Charge Concept, An Overview - Walters.pdf

 

[ersakthivel]

Oh maybe because he suggested that concrete might be used there. Seriously, are you really, unable to read with understanding?

As for using RHA in these storage boxes, it would create a simple spaced armor, not really efficent. perhaps effective only against smaller and simpler HEAT warheads and HESH. As for composite armor, the problem is if you wish to lost such composite armor, the forces acting during penetration process on this box can be really big and violent, which means that box can be ripped off it's attachements, and I do not believe that these attachements are solid enough. Besides this, how this armor would work inside? You think that if you put inside a composite armor it will be all fine? And how it will be attached to internal structure of the box? What about it's working mechanism? It will work properly in such box? What if this is a reactive type of composite armor? Will that box have enough strong structure to hold in one piece when armor will start to move, because yeah, such types of composite armors, starts to move their layers when penetration process starts.

There are so many issues and problems to be solved, that seeing your naive posts, I am certain you don't even realize how many of them there are.

setting aside all the bullshit , Is it possible to remove the storage boxes and add protection there?
YES. Thats all.You and me are not going to teach the cvrde guys how to do it.Is that understood.

 

[ersakthivel]

Listen, both, concrete and toolbox are bad protection, both against kinetic energy and shaped charge projectiles. Seriously people, in Europe during World War II these solutions were tested as addon armor, and none worked, same goes for sand bags, and other improvised protection solutions, it just don't work, and increase unnececary weight of vehicle. o and read why General Patton, after consulting this with guys from maintnance of his army, completely banned use of such improvised solutions, The only really working solutions, was to cut out armor plates from disabled or destroyed tanks, and weld them to the base armor of still functional tanks.



Oh seriously, and what you do in this subject? Do you even want to do something about tanks in your life? I want, to write about them proffesional books some day, to talk with engineers, soldiers, any many other things.

So yeah, I have a damn right for such declarations, because the last 10 years of my life, I was doing nothing else than educating myself and gaining knowledge about tanks and other AFV's.

When you are still on Discovery Channel level, which is pitifull, I am reading books, of known and respect authors.

But I know you are butthurt, with your ego, you can't accept that someone else, especially non Indian, can have greater knwowledge in this subject than you. Am I right?



Oh, so now it is a superiority complex? And what did you know about tanks, before you started to talking with me? Nothing besides this popular bollocks spread all over TV and the internet.

I said it, and I will repeat it, start reading the damn books.



But there are many people much better educated than you and me, and they do even more, Mr. Paul Lakowski for example, made many interesting calculations of composite armor protection based on scientific data for different materials. And he is not designing tanks, so what, you will say he also should not do this? Because he never saw internal structure of these armors? Neither he knows their real composition?

But hey, a lesser men also did not believed that earth revolves around sun, and that earth is not flat.

This is typical, that people who deeply believe in to some dogmats, have a hard time to understand a different opinion, point of view, or that someone else might have greater knowledge, and can by observation, understood much more.

The other interesting thing, is that you are spending whole day, on reading all my posts, and searching, where you can attack, which in itself, shows stupidity.

Stop this unrelenting drivel.do you know how long the CVRDE is in this business of tanks? the arjun is going on for more than 20 years.

you started to read the spelling of word the tank 10 years before as per your own statement.So you have found out what they don't know about arjun all by yourself from seeing a few grainy photographs and prattling some bullshit.



I just spend a stretch of 15 minutes at a time during my breaks to expose where you are doing creative writing about arjun all over the net.Thats all.

i can read a few PDfs and answer the doubts of your grandfather given a weeks time.SO you don't need to strut your stuff here.
This is no place for personal duels based on stuff like "Do you know how knowledgeable I am stuff here".If you have anything to learn and share , do it decently.

By the way your english knowledge seems to have improved a thousand fold just within a week.What is the secret behind it?

 

[pmaitra]

@Damian,

This concept is not well understood by people outside the warhead community.

How did this guy know that it is not well understood outside warhead community?

the jet temperature is not 20,000 C

So what is the temperature? Does he know? Copper will melt with less than one tenth of that temperature. Even oxy-acetylene produces enough temperature to melt copper.

 

[Damian]

setting aside all the bullshit , Is it possible to remove the storage boxes and add protection there?

Yes, the best way is to get rid of toolboxes, and weld there RHA or higher hardness steel plates to create cavity for composite armor, later tool boxes or ERA or anything else can be mounted to such cavity outside.

YES. Thats all.You and me are not going to teach the cvrde guys how to do it.Is that understood.

Of course, because people who can teach them, works in GDLS, TACOM, TARDEC, KMW, Rhinemetall, BAe, NEXTER, KMDB, even UKBTM, and this is where India should seek support and knowledge, gained through years of experience, experience many times, gained by paying in blood of tank crews.

Stop this unrelenting drivel.do you know how long the CVRDE is in this business of tanks? the arjun is going on for more than 20 years.

And do you know how long NATO countries or Russia is in a tank buiseness? 96 years, exactly 96 years developing not one single tank, but many of them, so you think that developing 20 years a single tank means something? It means nothing, for our standards it is even embarrasing to develop a single tank for 20 years.

you started to read the spelling of word the tank 10 years before as per your own statement.So you have found out what they don't know about arjun all by yourself from seeing a few grainy photographs and prattling some bullshit.

Well perhaps I am just more intelligent than you? Did you consider such possibility?

I just spend a stretch of 15 minutes at a time during my breaks to expose where you are doing creative writing about arjun all over the net.Thats all.

Creative writing? Don't be silly, it is just your silly nationalism, soon you will be in such a hype that you will say that Arjun is a super tank... oh how TV showish it sounds.

i can read a few PDfs and answer the doubts of your grandfather given a weeks time.SO you don't need to strut your stuff here.
This is no place for personal duels.If you have anything to learn and share , do it .

Oh but I shared that knowledge, and what I had in exchange? I bunch of damn nationalists in a hype, that are unable to accept these facts.

How did this guy know that it is not well understood outside warhead community?

By reading what people like you write? Oh come on, show that you can understand the context.

So what is the temperature? Does he know? Copper will melt with less than one tenth of that temperature. Even oxy-acetylene produces enough temperature to melt copper.

The other source says:

It is universally agreed that conical liner collapse and target penetration both occur by hydrodynamic flow. However, it has been established by X-ray diffraction that the jet is solid metal and not molten. Additionally, best estimates of jet temperature by incandescence colour suggest a mean value of about 450�C, and copper melts at 1083�C at atmospheric pressure. So the following conundrum is the first confusion: The jet appears to behave like a fluid, and yet it is known to be a solid. One recent theory that would help explain this is that the jet has a molten core but with a solid outer sheath.

Shaped Charge

And it is definetly hard to call Globalsecurity site as unreliable source.

Besides this, additional sources are provided in the first document.

[1] Walters, W. P. and Zukas, J. A., Fundamentals of Shaped Charges, Wiley, New
York, NY, 1989 and soft cover edition (with corrections), CMC Press, Baltimore, MD,
1998.
[2] Zukas, J. A. (ed.), High Velocity Impact Dynamics, Wiley, New York, NY, 1990.
[3] Walters, W. P., "Application of the Shaped Charge Concept", Journal of Explosives
Engineering, Vol. 8, No. 5, Jan.-Feb. 1991.
[4] Kennedy, D. R. "History of the Shaped Charge Effect, the First 100 Years", U. S.
Department of Commerce, AD-A220 095, 1983.
[5] Dante, J. G. and Golaski, S. K., "Micrograin and Amorphous Shaped Charge Liners",
Proceedings of ADPA Bomb and Warhead Section, White Oak, MD, May 1985.

 

[ersakthivel]

Yes, the best way is to get rid of toolboxes, and weld there RHA or higher hardness steel plates to create cavity for composite armor, later tool boxes or ERA or anything else can be mounted to such cavity outside.



Of course, because people who can teach them, works in GDLS, TACOM, TARDEC, KMW, Rhinemetall, BAe, NEXTER, KMDB, even UKBTM, and this is where India should seek support and knowledge, gained through years of experience, experience many times, gained by paying in blood of tank crews.



And do you know how long NATO countries or Russia is in a tank buiseness? 96 years, exactly 96 years developing not one single tank, but many of them, so you think that developing 20 years a single tank means something? It means nothing, for our standards it is even embarrasing to develop a single tank for 20 years.



Well perhaps I am just more intelligent than you? Did you consider such possibility?



Creative writing? Don't be silly, it is just your silly nationalism, soon you will be in such a hype that you will say that Arjun is a super tank... oh how TV showish it sounds.



Oh but I shared that knowledge, and what I had in exchange? I bunch of damn nationalists in a hype, that are unable to accept these facts.



By reading what people like you write? Oh come on, show that you can understand the context.



The other source says:



Shaped Charge

And it is definetly hard to call Globalsecurity site as unreliable source.

Besides this, additional sources are provided in the first document.

[1] Walters, W. P. and Zukas, J. A., Fundamentals of Shaped Charges, Wiley, New
York, NY, 1989 and soft cover edition (with corrections), CMC Press, Baltimore, MD,
1998.
[2] Zukas, J. A. (ed.), High Velocity Impact Dynamics, Wiley, New York, NY, 1990.
[3] Walters, W. P., "Application of the Shaped Charge Concept", Journal of Explosives
Engineering, Vol. 8, No. 5, Jan.-Feb. 1991.
[4] Kennedy, D. R. "History of the Shaped Charge Effect, the First 100 Years", U. S.
Department of Commerce, AD-A220 095, 1983.
[5] Dante, J. G. and Golaski, S. K., "Micrograin and Amorphous Shaped Charge Liners",
Proceedings of ADPA Bomb and Warhead Section, White Oak, MD, May 1985.

With all the so called knowledge you are saying here that IA and CVRDe forgot armor on arjun.

I would like to know which type of knowledge you shared with me?
do you mean practicing witch craft by looking at a photo and guessing some stupid stuff?
OH my God , Please leave me alone. i don't want to learn that stuff.

Enough is enough and lets go back to the debate at hand.

 

[Damian]

With all the so called knowledge you are saying here that IA and CVRDe forgot armor on arjun.

I do not say they forgot side armor for the turret, but they didn't place it there, and it is needed to provide 60 degrees protection for turret with such geometry. Why they done this? We do not known, although as Kunal said, Indian made T-90S have higher ground pressure than Russian ones, and Indian tanks have "Kanchan" armor, which hints that their weight is higher, which further hints that "Kanchan" might be weight inefficent to provide required level of protection. If this is the case for T-90S, it might be the case for Arjun, the original requirement, might have demanded a tank below 60 tons of weight, so to save weight, designers decided to not provide sufficent protection for turret sides. However weight reduction could had been achieved, by just reducing the vehicle internal volume.

I would like to know which type of knowledge you shared with me?

The general knowledge about AFV's, you did not noticed, or perhaps you do not want due to your silly nationalism. Because I see that you are agressive towards opinions made by non Indians.

do you mean practicing witch craft by looking at a photo and guessing some stupid stuff?

Stupid stuff, you call it, but I am perfectly aware that in the same time, you will call military equipment of Indias adversaries a piece of junk, without any argument, without any analisis of their design, which is typical for people of your kind.

OH my God , Please leave me alone. i don't want to learn that stuff.

Of course you do not want, because it stands with contradiction with this silly nationalism of yours. I bet that if I would shout all the time that Arjun is a super tank,

 

[ersakthivel]

I do not say they forgot side armor for the turret, but they didn't place it there, and it is needed to provide 60 degrees protection for turret with such geometry. Why they done this? We do not known

That is why I am saying you are a fake tank expert.A real expert would have given the reason behind it.Let me clear it for you they never forgot anything and there is nothing to go fishing there

, although as Kunal said, Indian made T-90S have higher ground pressure than Russian ones, and Indian tanks have "Kanchan" armor, which hints that their weight is higher, which further hints that "Kanchan" might be weight inefficent to provide required level of protection. If this is the case for T-90S, it might be the case for Arjun,

If the russians have such kickass armor tech.Why are they now transferring it to india now?Wont they know that the indian will learn to use it for ARJUn?
Once again you dont know the weight efficiency of kanchan armor as you dont know a the ground pressure of arjun either.

the original requirement, might have demanded a tank below 60 tons of weight, so to save weight, designers decided to not provide sufficent protection for turret sides. However weight reduction could had been achieved, by just reducing the vehicle internal volume.

What is the meaning of might have and how many tons of weight that two 2feetx4feet armor would weight.Do the math.Will it derail arjun project?

The general knowledge about AFV's, you did not noticed, or perhaps you do not want due to your silly nationalism. Because I see that you are agressive towards opinions made by non Indians.



Stupid stuff, you call it, but I am perfectly aware that in the same time, you will call military equipment of Indias adversaries a piece of junk, without any argument, without any analisis of their design, which is typical for people of your kind.



Of course you do not want, because it stands with contradiction with this silly nationalism of yours. I bet that if I would shout all the time that Arjun is a super tank, you would kiss my ass with pleassure.

You are just voicing racist opinion here.And some filthy bud head is ghost writing your posts here for some time because I know the level of your command in english knowledge is not enough for you to throw invectives like this.if you have any doubt go to the first conversation between you and me in arjun thread and compare the level of english with the level now.

Thanks for exposing your air tight head .

 

[Damian]

You are just voicing racist opinion here.

Where?!

And some filthy bud head is ghost writing your posts here for some time because I know the level of your command in english knowledge is not enough for you to throw invectives like this.if you have any doubt go to the first conversation between you and me in arjun thread and compare the level of english with the level now.

Thanks for exposing your air tight head .

The only tight head here is you.

 

[pmaitra]

@Damian,

Could you please list the chemical compounds used in military grade shaped charges?

Thanks.

 

[Decklander]

@Damian, We agreed to disagree regarding turret. can I now request you to pls cum out of the turret now and let us move forward with tactics? Out of 35 pages here more than 33 are dedicated to just the turret of these two tanks. You be happy with your opinion and let us be happy with ours. Lets now move on

 

[Damian]

@Damian,

Could you please list the chemical compounds used in military grade shaped charges?

Thanks.

Most commonly HMX, PBX, RDX etc. Many different types of explosivs as far as I know. You should rather try to search explosives used in specific type and models of projectiles. For example M830/M830A1 is reported to be loaded with Composition A3 Type II explosive. Source is FAS (Federation of American Scientists) and Jane's.