AH-64E Apache attack helicopter

[Kunal Biswas]

going through this thread many see the Apache as a wonder weapon that will tackle pakistani army on its own,
Guys its only 22 that will be bought!!wake up

These are simple replacement for IAF`s MI-35s, And AH-64 can be used in special modes specially in Mountain and in presence of SAM environment, The good thing abt Long Bow is when fired Missile it can turn back and hide, But the radar on top will guide the AT missile to the objective..

IAF also ordered 105 no of LCH..

 

[Yusuf]

India will have to reconcile to the fact that Russia will sell to Pak someday as it is in the business of weapons sale. Provided off course Pak pays the $$$ required.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Suits me fine Kunal, what I say is done daily by the US Armed Forces! But hey, I ave 'least' idea. Your reasons are quite geriatric to say the least

US Forces should note " 1 Killed civilian gives 10 volunteers " From the Vid..

Indian Army today rule in Kashmir only because Civilian allow us to rule..



We have very different way of approach and its successful than what US army doing in Iraq or Astan..

I care for IA men but i care for Civilians more coz they are Our people..

 

[Yusuf]

The US approach to COIN as well as that of the Soviets was OK for them as they are/were not fighting insurgents who were their own mates in their own land but on foreign land where collateral damage even small ones were just "regrettable" while the ops continued. I really doubt GoI will employ such methods against our own men.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The US approach to COIN as well as that of the Soviets was OK for them as they are/were not fighting insurgents who were their own mates in their own land but on foreign land where collateral damage even small ones were just "regrettable" while the ops continued. I really doubt GoI will employ such methods against our own men.

Its not the Insurgents ( Our own ) they are meant to die, But the civillians around them, Firing even a 30mm shell explode and have a kill radius of 2-5m, Killing Insurgents domestic or Foregin is same, But Civillains around them are important..

Generally IA evaluate the civilians before any assault, Here J&K police and SOG are very helpful, Only than we inquire how many are inside or any hostage their are not, Usually their are no hostage, If Hostage we have to go in room by room and kill the tangos rescue the hostage, If no hostage we find out where abt of tangos and kill them with MGL or Grenade, Sniper or mass fire, Use Of RL in extreme cases..

 

[Yusuf]

Its not the Insurgents ( Our own ) they are meant to die, But the civillians around them, Firing even a 30mm shell explode and have a kill radius of 2-5m, Killing Insurgents domestic or Foregin is same, But Civillains around them are important..

Generally IA evaluate the civilians before any assault, Here J&K police and SOG are very helpful, Only than we inquire how many are inside or any hostage their are not, Usually their are no hostage, If Hostage we have to go in room by room and kill the tangos rescue the hostage, If no hostage we find out where abt of tangos and kill them with MGL or Grenade, Sniper or mass fire, Use Of RL in extreme cases..

Yes I am talking about collateral and not about insurgents. Since COIN is taking place in our own land with our people in those areas we don want civilian death.

 

[Adux]

US Forces should note " 1 Killed civilian gives 10 volunteers " From the Vid..

So? Try getting the info on civilian causalities inadvertently caused by the Army

Indian Army today rule in Kashmir only because Civilian allow us to rule..

Yes, Equipments like the apache's will make their lives better.

We have very different way of approach and its successful than what US army doing in Iraq or Astan..

Not really, we are not facing it in the intensity as they are, also we have far more boots on the ground with much less area.

I care for IA men but i care for Civilians more coz they are Our people.

Again this could make it better. It has better targeting and lower collateral damage than what Carl Gustav will cause. If the Indian Army can develop tactics for it to be employed in India for COIN, this will save lives of civilians and army men.

 

[Adux]

Its not the Insurgents ( Our own ) they are meant to die, But the civillians around them, Firing even a 30mm shell explode and have a kill radius of 2-5m, Killing Insurgents domestic or Foregin is same, But Civillains around them are important..

Now this laughable, firstly there is NO 30mm Shells, it is 30mm ammo rounds, (BULLETS) on its chain gun - M230 Chain Gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now on your KILL RADIUS - 2-5m, which would mean mostly hostage situation, or close proximity to civilians, ( I hope you can imagine how much 5 meters), who in the right mind would use a attack heli in that scenario?

Generally IA evaluate the civilians before any assault, Here J&K police and SOG are very helpful, Only than we inquire how many are inside or any hostage their are not, Usually their are no hostage, If Hostage we have to go in room by room and kill the tangos rescue the hostage, If no hostage we find out where abt of tangos and kill them with MGL or Grenade, Sniper or mass fire, Use Of RL in extreme cases..

Have you ever seen Americans use attack heli' to kill terrorist when hostage's are present?
The usual IA method right now, is if they have surrounded a terrorist's in a house with NO hostage's in them, then their modus operandi is to blast the house to smithereens with Carl Gustav's, Here is a weapon which has infrared and can target its cannon (GUN FIRE) from various high angles, and save the DAMN HOUSE!!!!!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Now this laughable, firstly there is NOT 30mm Shells, it is 30mm ammo rounds, (BULLETS) on its chain gun - M230 Chain Gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now on your KILL RADIUS - 2-5m, which would mean mostly hostage situation, or close proximity to civilians, ( I hope you can imagine how much 5 meters), who in the right mind would use a attack heli in that scenario?

Have you ever seen Americans use attack heli' to kill terrorist when hostage's are present?
The usual IA method right now, is if they have surrounded a terrorist's in a house with NO hostage's in them, then their modus operandi is to blast the house to smithereens with Carl Gustav's, Here is a weapon which has infrared and can target its cannon (GUN FIRE) from various high angles, and save the DAMN HOUSE!!!!!!

Shell or Ammo, After all its a 30mm HE Round or shell as 30mm is a cannon, In US terminology is called Chain gun, Using Air-power in Urban is not practiced in Indian Army or Paramilitary..

As i said, RL is used in extreme cases, Other wise mass fire and MGL or grenades just do the Job..

So? Try getting the info on civilian causalities inadvertently caused by the Army,Yes, Equipments like the apache's will make their lives better.Not really, we are not facing it in the intensity as they are, also we have far more boots on the ground with much less area.Again this could make it better. It has better targeting and lower collateral damage than what Carl Gustav will cause. If the Indian Army can develop tactics for it to be employed in India for COIN, this will save lives of civilians and army men.

Apache not going to make their life any better, Apache on the first place wont be deployed there coz its going for 104 & 125 squadron over Rajasthan & Punjab, Not only boots, Their is no qestion of lowering collateral damage actually no collateral damage yet by using RL, The destruction of Civilian property by Armed forces have special insurance and codes in these places for civilians, As i said we use IAF Mi-17 & Army Lancer COIN helo against Tangos over open fields, mountains, river beds away from Human habitat..

Lancers will be replaced by Rudra..

 

[Rahul Singh]

It is a tricky trade off.

One would like to have total protection and yet be able to be used in all terrains of our country and all likely battlefields available for our country.

During Op Vijay we had to make do with Mi 17 in a gunship role for which they were not designed, equipped nor really effective and we lost one!

There exists an option for LCH. When operating at high altitudes, LCH shall stay as it is but while on desert in anti-tank mode or during CAS it can wear slap armor as much as it needs. Say, LCH gives option to develop two different versions, LCH-HAMH(High Altitude Mountain Warfare) and LCH-ATCAS( Anti Tank and Close Air Support).

 

[Immanuel]

It is amasing how much American kit India is purchasing that doesn't require a bunch of ToT. They are gaining nothing in experience making these purchases.

The deal value will exceed over billion hence it will have good amount of offsets. lots of the spares will end up being locally manufactured. The order may be a total of 44 helos, no need for TOT in that area. With LCH we will have a good attack helo with very good capabilities far better than anything in this region.

 

[p2prada]

Have you ever seen Americans use attack heli' to kill terrorist when hostage's are present?
The usual IA method right now, is if they have surrounded a terrorist's in a house with NO hostage's in them, then their modus operandi is to blast the house to smithereens with Carl Gustav's, Here is a weapon which has infrared and can target its cannon (GUN FIRE) from various high angles, and save the DAMN HOUSE!!!!!!

It is everybody's method. The Americans simply blow it up using a tank. Nobody gives a fvk for the house, the lives of the soldiers matter.

Apache has excellent accuracy, but who is going to identify targets. There is no guarantee the one you killed was a terrorist when you are in a gunship. American jets have killed their own armour over Iraq and American helicopters have also killed their own people on the ground. This is something known as fratricide. Even that is understated because the DoD is hiding actual figures of fratricide. Heck an entire American armoured column was attacked by A-10s and A-10s even attacked a British armoured column. Patriot missiles were killing friendly aircraft left, right and center.

Gunships in our own territory is real bad news. The birdbrains don't know what they are hitting. Even the American Apaches in Iraq had to confirm and re-confirm targets before they were allowed to fire. Using gunships is not easy when you are in an urban environment and identifying and killing targets is not as easy as you are trying to make it look.

There are plenty of instances where the Americans have bombed schools and markets even with their level of technology. It has nothing to do with accuracy of the missiles and guns, even Russian equipment is accurate and so is French and British. There is no real point in using gunships against insurgents like the Naxals. Using it on Pakistan Army and PLA is a different issue. Helis are best used for recce.

 

[ace009]

Shell or Ammo, After all its a 30mm HE Round or shell as 30mm is a cannon, In US terminology is called Chain gun, Using Air-power in Urban is not practiced in Indian Army or Paramilitary..

As i said, RL is used in extreme cases, Other wise mass fire and MGL or grenades just do the Job..




Apache not going to make their life any better, Apache on the first place wont be deployed there coz its going for 104 & 125 squadron over Rajasthan & Punjab, Not only boots, Their is no qestion of lowering collateral damage actually no collateral damage yet by using RL, The destruction of Civilian property by Armed forces have special insurance and codes in these places for civilians, As i said we use IAF Mi-17 & Army Lancer COIN helo against Tangos over open fields, mountains, river beds away from Human habitat..

Lancers will be replaced by Rudra..

I hope that IA will deploy a bunch of AH-64Ds in the Arunachal sector - the terrain is ideal for Longbow. Even a dozen of them there will be good. They can be supported by the LCHs.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

American jets have killed their own armour over Iraq and American helicopters have also killed their own people on the ground. This is something known as fratricide.

Also known as "friendly fire." At one time, I think, artillerymen considered 2% friendly casualties to be normal. I could be wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire

 

[pmaitra]

Also known as "friendly fire." At one time, I think, artillerymen considered 2% friendly casualties to be normal. I could be wrong.

Friendly fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was under the impression that friendly-fire is killing your allies or your co-soldiers by mistake while fratricide is killing your allies or co-soldiers intentionally as an act of frustration, stress, jealously, anger etc..

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Fratricide may also be used to refer to friendly fire incidents.

Fratricide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pmaitra]

Fratricide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for pointing that out. I learnt something. I should have looked it up myself.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Thanks for pointing that out. I learnt something. I should have looked it up myself.

Wiki knows all.

 

[Adux]

It is everybody's method. The Americans simply blow it up using a tank. Nobody gives a fvk for the house, the lives of the soldiers matter.

Apache has excellent accuracy, but who is going to identify targets. There is no guarantee the one you killed was a terrorist when you are in a gunship. American jets have killed their own armour over Iraq and American helicopters have also killed their own people on the ground. This is something known as fratricide. Even that is understated because the DoD is hiding actual figures of fratricide. Heck an entire American armoured column was attacked by A-10s and A-10s even attacked a British armoured column. Patriot missiles were killing friendly aircraft left, right and center.

Gunships in our own territory is real bad news. The birdbrains don't know what they are hitting. Even the American Apaches in Iraq had to confirm and re-confirm targets before they were allowed to fire. Using gunships is not easy when you are in an urban environment and identifying and killing targets is not as easy as you are trying to make it look.

There are plenty of instances where the Americans have bombed schools and markets even with their level of technology. It has nothing to do with accuracy of the missiles and guns, even Russian equipment is accurate and so is French and British. There is no real point in using gunships against insurgents like the Naxals. Using it on Pakistan Army and PLA is a different issue. Helis are best used for recce.

The employment of Apache's are not like above in COIN and Counter - Terror. And Intelligence is the name of the game. All the examples you pointed is not relevent to this discussion, as this is not CAS, nor high flying jets, nor is this some Apache's flying blind without any intelligence support and boots on the ground.

 

[Bhadra]

This appears that the thred has been converted in application of AH-64 Apache for COIN, CT or CI ops. In another forum people are debating if this plateform can be used for anti – infiltration role. There are many Naysayers here and there too. People generally expressing openions depending on their background and parochial interests. It seems to boilling down to IAF saying Army has no use for it and Armywalas saying it can be used for numerious tasks. There are some who wish to remain stuck to AK-47 and declaring someone as experst who would not have faced even a single bullet in his lifetime.
We are visualising use of Attack Hepter only in a coventional war. No doubt the machine has been made and equipped keeping in view a perticular conventional role, it does not mean it should not and has not been used in roles and tasks not written in mannuals. Are people proposing the capability be kept in storage till Al Khalids cross the IB or we fly across. That will be too much for such an expensive and capable machines.
The Machine primarilly has ground roles or ground support roles including creation of air corridors.
So far its use on LOC in anti infiltration role is concerned, it is feasible and should be resorted to even at the risk of escalation. India has a fence on own side covered by posts. There are varying distances between Indian and Pakistani posts in the form of No Mans Land. This no mans land is diffuclt to be dominated except with fire due to fear of crossing it and land being shrewn with assorted mines. This is the most important piece of tactcle space which infiltrators make use of for ingress or egress. Any infltration or exfiltration battle generally culminates here with Pakistan post covering it with fire support. Many a times this battle may endure for hours and days. No harm will ever result if Apaches are used behind on km of the border where there is no possibility of colateral damadge. (One km behind due to accord restrictions).
Most of the infiltration battle rage in inhospitable jungles of Rajwar, Afrooda, Lar Marg, Ganga Bal and higher reaches. There are neither radars there nor any possibilites of colateral damage. Army has experience of opearations like Sarp Vinash raged in jungles of Kandi. Where is collateral damadge there? Ony one who has entered Indian Territory must be awarded with Shahadat.
What happens if there is limited war in mountains like Kargil? Will the Apache remain in the hangers at Pathanakot or Chandigarh? I suppose No.
There are people who do not see the gravity of CT ops like Dantewada where BSF lost 76 constables in a single ambush. The ambush was not sprung from a village but they still want to stick to use of rifles only.
Use of a capability must be fully visualised and capability used fully to realise the cost of the system.