Agni V Missile

SavageKing456

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Great to hear. But don't you agree that we need to do more tests especially thermonuclear ones(=> 1 megaton). No puny tests of 50 kiloton. Why should we always be shy of demonstrating our power.

The biggest punishment will be sanctions from Washington. But considering the present geopolitical situation wherein China is openly challenging the US, will Washington really sanction India or whether sanctions will really be effective.
The US needs India now more than ever.

Let the mentally bankrupt Porks parrot our actions as would be expected. Anyway China could have always transferred hydrogen bomb technology to Pak at any time. So we will have to live with that reality. The asymmetry between the Indian and Pak nuclear capability was present in the past, is present now and will also be present in the future. Pakistan cannot match our nuclear capability as we are too big for them.

North Korea has already fucked up the international non proliferation regime and the CTBT. Nobody could do anything.
Problem is European Union,it could bring unnecessary sanctions or derail our plans to have good trade agreements with European nations if we ever disclose that we have >10k range missles capable of annihilating their cities.
Imo i doubt that we would disclose that anytime soon before becoming permanent member of UN.
 

FalconSlayers

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Problem is European Union,it could bring unnecessary sanctions or derail our plans to have good trade agreements with European nations if we ever disclose that we have >10k range missles capable of annihilating their cities.
Imo i doubt that we would disclose that anytime soon before becoming permanent member of UN.
We do have such missile called surya ICBM whose work was started in 1994 and its already 27 years, it is a secret even now.
 

BON PLAN

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Great to hear. But don't you agree that we need to do more tests especially thermonuclear ones(=> 1 megaton). No puny tests of 50 kiloton. Why should we always be shy of demonstrating our power.

The biggest punishment will be sanctions from Washington. But considering the present geopolitical situation wherein China is openly challenging the US, will Washington really sanction India or whether sanctions will really be effective.
The US needs India now more than ever.

Let the mentally bankrupt Porks parrot our actions as would be expected. Anyway China could have always transferred hydrogen bomb technology to Pak at any time. So we will have to live with that reality. The asymmetry between the Indian and Pak nuclear capability was present in the past, is present now and will also be present in the future. Pakistan cannot match our nuclear capability as we are too big for them.

North Korea has already fucked up the international non proliferation regime and the CTBT. Nobody could do anything.
In the case of a multi warheads missile, the ideal yield of each is more or less 150kt.
Except against some very hardened targets, a megaton warhead is useless. Drop a 150kt or a 1000kt bomb on Shanghai will not make so much difference I think : maybe few less deads, same mess.
It's the choice of all western nuclear country : more warheads on each missile, each less powerfull.
 

FalconSlayers

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There are two suryas,one is SLBM
yes and its not a hoax as many believe that surya ICBM doesn't exist its just a myth or a hoax, even many times officials denied its existence but recently an image surfaced on social media proving its existence.

1609917597672.png
 

Tridev123

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Problem is European Union,it could bring unnecessary sanctions or derail our plans to have good trade agreements with European nations if we ever disclose that we have >10k range missles capable of annihilating their cities.
Imo i doubt that we would disclose that anytime soon before becoming permanent member of UN.
It is not the EU. The Americans have the Europeans by their balls.
The EU will not do anything vetoed by the Yanks.
If Washington winks the Europeans will simply ignore our nuclear tests.
Anyway we don't need to do dozens of tests. I believe a few tests of megaton strength will be enough. The key is to have an high yield low weight warhead suitable for mounting on missiles.

We have never demonstrated an above 50kn bomb. So countries like China may assume that we don't have the capability for an true hydrogen bomb of 1 megaton.
Simulation cannot always be the answer.
Our tests will remove the ambiguity over our nuke capability.

Our new tests will not damage the CTBT more than what the N. Koreans did. The reason for the tests will be appreciated by all as the Chinese are openly threatening us.
 

Tridev123

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In the case of a multi warheads missile, the ideal yield of each is more or less 150kt.
Except against some very hardened targets, a megaton warhead is useless. Drop a 150kt or a 1000kt bomb on Shanghai will not make so much difference I think : maybe few less deads, same mess.
It's the choice of all western nuclear country : more warheads on each missile, each less powerfull.
Pardon me, but isn't this kind of advice coming from countries who have already detonated multiple megaton bombs.

We have regularly seen such persuasion from the advanced countries on many issues. India cannot be trusted with megaton nuclear bombs.

There were efforts made to shut down our 3 stage nuclear power programme using thorium. Saying that the technology is not feasible.

The West unfortunately tries to cap the capability of the other countries. A few megaton tests is nothing beside the hundreds of such tests carried out by the US, Russia, China and France.
 

hit&run

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Great to hear. But don't you agree that we need to do more tests especially thermonuclear ones(=> 1 megaton). No puny tests of 50 kiloton. Why should we always be shy of demonstrating our power.

The biggest punishment will be sanctions from Washington. But considering the present geopolitical situation wherein China is openly challenging the US, will Washington really sanction India or whether sanctions will really be effective.
The US needs India now more than ever.

Let the mentally bankrupt Porks parrot our actions as would be expected. Anyway China could have always transferred hydrogen bomb technology to Pak at any time. So we will have to live with that reality. The asymmetry between the Indian and Pak nuclear capability was present in the past, is present now and will also be present in the future. Pakistan cannot match our nuclear capability as we are too big for them.

North Korea has already fucked up the international non proliferation regime and the CTBT. Nobody could do anything.
If I am watching it correctly we will not use new tests for pure scientific or capability enhancing purposes. We have reserved that privilege for any serious geo political mess or altercation that will require a hard reset.

Our capabilities are good enough to deter anyone. We need more focus on nuclear infrastructure as our numbers will increase gradually to sub-nuclear war fighting levels at least where our numbers will be still enough to keep US and Russia out after an exchange. Other focus has to be delivering the package SLBMs, MIRVs and processing nuclear fuel for new submarines and ACC.
 

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Pardon me, but isn't this kind of advice coming from countries who have already detonated multiple megaton bombs.

We have regularly seen such persuasion from the advanced countries on many issues. India cannot be trusted with megaton nuclear bombs.

There were efforts made to shut down our 3 stage nuclear power programme using thorium. Saying that the technology is not feasible.

The West unfortunately tries to cap the capability of the other countries. A few megaton tests is nothing beside the hundreds of such tests carried out by the US, Russia, China and France.
If I remember well, France made one 2.6 MT and one 1.3 MT tests. All the others far less, from 0,5 kt.
All the last tests (1988 to 1991) from 2kt to 120kt, with an average of 45kt.
Megaton warhead is only interesting on one warhead missile, at the begining of the building of a deterrence. It's far "better" to have 3x 150kt than 1 x 1MT.

The West try to reduce the capacity of the others, as we reduce our own arsenal ! (France, GB and USA reduced their stockpile these last 20-30 years)
 

Tridev123

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If I am watching it correctly we will not use new tests for pure scientific or capability enhancing purposes. We have reserved that privilege for any serious geo political mess or altercation that will require a hard reset.

Our capabilities are good enough to deter anyone. We need more focus on nuclear infrastructure as our numbers will increase gradually to sub-nuclear war fighting levels at least where our numbers will be still enough to keep US and Russia out after an exchange. Other focus has to be delivering the package SLBMs, MIRVs and processing nuclear fuel for new submarines and ACC.
Appreciate the logic. But sometimes one gets frustrated at seeing India punch below its weight.

Can you list the essential ingredients of a thermonuclear bomb. I guess
1.Fissile material either enriched uranium > 90% or plutonium 239
2.tritium/deuterium obtained from heavy water plants
Along with the usual components of a fission bomb.

Anything you would like to add.Is India fully self sufficient in the materials needed.
What about the electronics needed.
 

hit&run

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Appreciate the logic. But sometimes one gets frustrated at seeing India punch below its weight.

Can you list the essential ingredients of a thermonuclear bomb. I guess
1.Fissile material either enriched uranium > 90% or plutonium 239
2.tritium/deuterium obtained from heavy water plants
Along with the usual components of a fission bomb.

Anything you would like to add.Is India fully self sufficient in the materials needed.
What about the electronics needed.
I am not too sure what you are implying here.

I am a watcher not strategic command warehouse keeper.

There are no punching above or below when it comes to nuclear deterrence. Nukes will fly when the circumstances will match the doctrine criteria.

Indian scientists and top political leadership has assured many times about credible deterrence. Recently we made nuclear doctrine more flexible by tweaking NFU. This was a sign that we are not contained with existing model but there are significant changes happening not only at policy and analysis level but hardware. It was also a sign that there is a lot of faith in the declared capabilities.

Modi chairing combined commanders’ conference in July 2018 made following remarks.

“In a world of rapid changes, India faces familiar threats and new ones. Our challenges cover land, sea and air at the same time. It includes the full range, from terrorism to conventional threat to nuclear environment”.

“Our strategic deterrence is robust and reliable, in accordance with our nuclear doctrine, and our political will is clear”.


Interestingly these remarks came few weeks after our forum was engaged in very hot debate among members regarding doubts on political will to use the nukes.
 
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Tumba

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If I am watching it correctly we will not use new tests for pure scientific or capability enhancing purposes. We have reserved that privilege for any serious geo political mess or altercation that will require a hard reset.

Our capabilities are good enough to deter anyone. We need more focus on nuclear infrastructure as our numbers will increase gradually to sub-nuclear war fighting levels at least where our numbers will be still enough to keep US and Russia out after an exchange. Other focus has to be delivering the package SLBMs, MIRVs and processing nuclear fuel for new submarines and ACC.
Budha Smiles 3 is a real need ... and if UNSC is not reformed before Modi 3rd term...
We will for sure see 11-15 thermo nuke tests...

Smaller ones at Pokhran and fatter ones in Sea...

Major need is data and real experience
 

Tridev123

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I am not too sure what you are implying here.

I am a watcher not strategic command warehouse keeper.

There are no punching above or below when it comes to nuclear deterrence. Nukes will fly when the circumstances will match the doctrine criteria.

Indian scientists and top political leadership has assured many times about credible deterrence. Recently we made nuclear doctrine more flexible by tweaking NFU. This was a sign that we are not contained with existing model but there are significant changes happening not only at policy and analysis level but hardware. It was also a sign that there is a lot of faith in the declared capabilities.

Modi chairing combined commanders’ conference in July 2018 made following remarks.

“In a world of rapid changes, India faces familiar threats and new ones. Our challenges cover land, sea and air at the same time. It includes the full range, from terrorism to conventional threat to nuclear environment”.

“Our strategic deterrence is robust and reliable, in accordance with our nuclear doctrine, and our political will is clear”.


Interestingly these remarks came few weeks after our forum was engaged in very hot debate among members regarding doubts on political will to use the nukes.
We have full faith in our Government and the capabilities of our scientists.
By raising a query on self sufficiency I was trying to show the contrast between the capability of India and Pakistan.

I believe some specialised high tech electronics is needed for precisely detonating the conventional explosives shroud.

I doubt whether the Pakistanis have the capability to fabricate such electronic components. Probably a few parts of their bomb are imported from their Daddy China.

India on the other hand might have well indigenised all the required components as we had a very long lead over the Pakis. Our first Smiling Buddha was in 1974 more than two decades before Pakistan detonated its bomb.

We are fully self sufficient and don't need to import anything from any other country.
 

Tridev123

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Budha Smiles 3 is a real need ... and if UNSC is not reformed before Modi 3rd term...
We will for sure see 11-15 thermo nuke tests...

Smaller ones at Pokhran and fatter ones in Sea...

Major need is data and real experience
Too optimistic.
But the current bullying by China has speeded up our work on the entire nuclear weapons programme.
 

Gessler

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As @BON PLAN said, MT warheads simply don't have the same utility today as they did in early cold war times.

MT warheads were necessary at a time when MIRV did not exist, and accuracy of ICBMs was horrible (CEP of several kilometers, warhead could miss the city entirely). So you needed as big a yield as possible so even if missile was way off, you could still do some damage.

With MIRVs in play & CEPs coming down to only few meters (Agni-5 is reportedly >25m), the stakes of the warhead(s) missing the target have come down greatly. Today you can make do with much smaller yields. Even 100kt is enough. Hiroshima, Nagasaki were only 15-20kt.

And once we get reliable second-strike capability with SSBNs, it'll be sufficiently enough.
 

hit&run

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We have full faith in our Government and the capabilities of our scientists.
By raising a query on self sufficiency I was trying to show the contrast between the capability of India and Pakistan.

I believe some specialised high tech electronics is needed for precisely detonating the conventional explosives shroud.

I doubt whether the Pakistanis have the capability to fabricate such electronic components. Probably a few parts of their bomb are imported from their Daddy China.

India on the other hand might have well indigenised all the required components as we had a very long lead over the Pakis. Our first Smiling Buddha was in 1974 more than two decades before Pakistan detonated its bomb.

We are fully self sufficient and don't need to import anything from any other country.
Here at DFI we had a nuanced debate on having not tested actual fuse on warhead resealed by BM payload. The debate ended when Videos of fuse triggered blast of conventional explosives before impact were released by DRDO during test of one of Agni series BM.

@LETHALFORCE @DFIlite @bennedose probably have those visuals handy.
 

BON PLAN

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As @BON PLAN said, MT warheads simply don't have the same utility today as they did in early cold war times.

MT warheads were necessary at a time when MIRV did not exist, and accuracy of ICBMs was horrible (CEP of several kilometers, warhead could miss the city entirely). So you needed as big a yield as possible so even if missile was way off, you could still do some damage.

With MIRVs in play & CEPs coming down to only few meters (Agni-5 is reportedly >25m), the stakes of the warhead(s) missing the target have come down greatly. Today you can make do with much smaller yields. Even 100kt is enough. Hiroshima, Nagasaki were only 15-20kt.

And once we get reliable second-strike capability with SSBNs, it'll be sufficiently enough.
I fully agree.
Better have a single 150kt with good accuracy and longer range (because lighter) than a 1000kt warhead, with same accuracy, but lower range.
 

no smoking

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The West try to reduce the capacity of the others, as we reduce our own arsenal ! (France, GB and USA reduced their stockpile these last 20-30 years)
No, on the contrast, the West reduce the QUANTITY of arsenal, but the improvement of QUALITY bring the threat of nuclear weapon to a whole new level. For example, before 1980s, US need 3 warheads for every Soviet Silo, but since CEP was narrowed less than 100m, they only need 2.

More importantly, with the technological progress, the conventional weapon can produce the damage as same as nuclear weapons in some circumstances.
 

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