J20 Stealth Fighter

MiG-29SMT said:

Fighter aircraft are not decisive weapons, despite the impression for fans they are, they are not.

These are really decisive weapons

ICBMs, Submarines, Cruise missiles armed with nukes.
Biological weapons, since they target humans and not infrastructure.
India has enough weapons to assure J-20 is not a decisive weapon.

Add J-20 has not VTOL capability, it can not fly like Harriers or F-35B

you can hide a J-35B almost any where.

airstrips are prone to be targeted and are easy to spot.

F-35 also is stealthier than J-20.

why? easy less reflectors, no ventral fins and no canards with dihedral.
Add J-20 is bigger than F-35 so the radar energy is higher due lo a larger surface and volume despite it has similar shape, smaller in stealth is better always.

If it comes to conventional war J-20 has practicality versus nations armed with conventional weapons such as Taiwan, Vietnam or Japan; however versus India having subs and allies like the USA and England means basically the threat of nuclear war is real.
Russia has Tu-160 even USA has B-2s and B-21 because long range armed nuclear cruise missiles allow Tu-160 stay out of the range of the enemies territory.

in a full blown war, radioactivity in India means the aquifers and winds will pollute China too and once water is polluted in the Himalayas do not mean anything since hymalayas are the water source of Asia.

Millions of people dependent on Himalayan snowmelt for water face a "very serious" risk of shortages this year after one of the lowest rates of snowfall, scientists warned Monday.

Snowmelt is the source of about a quarter of the total water flow of 12 major river basins that originate high in the region, the report said.

"This is a wake-up call for researchers, policymakers and downstream communities," said report author Sher Muhammad, from the Nepal-based International Centre for Integrated Mountain Development (ICIMOD).

Low snow on the Himalayas threatens water security

Millions of people dependent on snowmelt for water face a 'very serious' risk of shortages this year after one of the lowest rates of snowfall.

www.japantimes.co.jp

While everyone’s anxiously watching and analysing the events unravelling in the South China Sea, there’s another resource conflict involving China that also deserves attention. In the Himalayas, China and India are competing for valuable hydropower and water resources on the Yarlung Tsangpo–Brahmaputra River. The dispute offers some important lessons for regional cooperation (on more than just water), and highlights what’s at stake if China and India mismanage their resource conflict

China, India and water across the Himalayas | The Strategist

While everyone’s anxiously watching and analysing the events unravelling in the South China Sea, there’s another resource conflict involving China that also deserves attention. In the Himalayas, China and India are competing for valuable hydropower ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

J-20 is just a diplomatic weapon, Biological weapons are far more decisive and dangerous.

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If PLAAF only has 40, it's a diplomatic weapon, if there is 1000 J20, it's something.

aditya10r said:

So by 2035, PLAAF Inventory will include 600+ J-10s, 800+ J-11's and J-16s and 1000+ J-20s. Holy sweet baby christ, that is 2400+ combat aircrafts.

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I think the most ignored plane is there will be 100+ KJ series, there were already 70s.

The latest KJ700 is leaked.

KJ700 + J20 will be very aggressive combination.

rockdog said:

If PLAAF only has 40, it's a diplomatic weapon, if there is 1000 J20, it's something.

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How many J-20 jets does China have?
There are conflicting answers to this question from the various sources at one'd fingertips. The usually reliable and up-to-speed World Directory of Modern Military Aircraft (WDMMA) gives an awfully low-ball estimate of 19 "Mighty Dragon" airframes in the PLAAF inventory, but upon further mouse clicks mentions "some 50 or so airframes completed," which still sounds like an overly conservative estimate

Turning to a December 2022 report in DefenseNews which covered the Zhuhai Airshow, reporter Mike Yeo cites aviation expert Andreas Rupprecht, who, based on the construction numbers witnessed at the airshow, estimates the total J-20 production at 208 aircraft.

Last but not least, we have a December 2023 article in Scramble, the online magazine of the Dutch Aviation Society, which posits:

"With the 200th aircraft built noted early this year, total production should be getting close to 250. As a result at least nine People’s Liberation Army - Air Force (PLAAF) Brigades are flying the stealth CAC J-20A, with unconfirmed rumours about another five Brigades that also would have started flying the J-20A this year."

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Frankly, if I were wargaming a shooting war involving Red China, I would err on the side of caution and be inclined to go Scramble's or Mr. Rupprecht's estimates on the Wēilóng 's numbers of WDMMA's. "Hic Sunt Dracones (Here be dragons)," quoth the old Latin warning from medieval maps.


Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

estimate




verb

/ˈɛstɪmeɪt/

1. roughly calculate or judge the value, number, quantity, or extent of.
   "the aim is to estimate the effects of macroeconomic policy on the economy"
   
   Similar:
   roughly calculate
   
   
   
   noun
   
   
   /ˈɛstɪmət/
   1. an approximate calculation or judgement of the value, number, quantity, or extent of something.
      "at a rough estimate, staff are recycling a quarter of paper used"
2. https://simpleflying.com/chengdu-j-20-what-to-know-about-mighty-dragon/

China allegedly deploys J-20 fighter jets near Indian border
In total, 6 Chinese J-20 spotted at dual-use airport in Tibet's Shigatse region, less than 93 miles from India's northeastern Sikkim state

rockdog said:

I think the most ignored plane is there will be 100+ KJ series, there were already 70s.

The latest KJ700 is leaked.

KJ700 + J20 will be very aggressive combination.

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“The J-20, in my estimation, would be dead long before it had the ability to maneuver against either the F-22 or the F-35,” [Venable] said. “It’s got enough spikes on it to where the radar returns on it are likely to be much more significant, which means that the F-22 and the F-35 can see it a lot farther away.”





Canards are also a good way to increase radar cross section and compromise the other stealth features. Unless the canards have to be on the same plane with the wings, they would significantly contribute to increase RCS regardless they are moving or not from 12 o'clock head on. And even if it's being aligned with the wings on the same plane and angles both horizontally and vertically, it would still contribute to increasing RCS nonetheless from a diagonal view.



https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/j-20-design.htm



J-20 has uneven surfaces after its side weapons bays and round engine nacelles,to reduce cross section and follow the Whitcomb area rule aerodynamic principles, plus Chengdu fitted the J-20 with ventral fins for lateral. and directional stability because the dorsal V tail was not enough for controlling the aircraft at high Angle of attacks; however this generates resonance and radar signature for ground radar. These features also reduced its stealth features.

China lacks Thrust vectoring, contrary to Russia or the USA, so they were forced by limitations to break the stealth technology rules and prioritize aerodynamics, thus Chengdu set the canards with dihedral and fitted the J-20 with ventral fins.

Would have Chengdu used LEVCONs on J-20 and thrust vectoring the machine would had kept stealth and performance at the same time, but the V vertical tail it has can not work as the single pitch authority aerodynamic control so they added canards and ventral fins.


Studies have shown that for angles of attack greater than 16 degrees, an increase in the canard sweep results in an increase in lift developed by the canard when the canard is above or in the wing chord plane. This increased lift results in a lift increase for the total configuration for the canard above the wing chord plane.
For the canard in the wing chord plane, the increased canard lift is partially lost by increased interference on the wing.



For the configurations with the canard in the wing chord plane, increasing the canard dihedral angle from -18.60 to 18.60 increased the maximum lift coefficient of the configuration. For the configurations
with the canard above the wing chord plane, the highest maximum lift coefficient was
developed when the canard had no dihedral.

"THE EFFECT OF CANARD LEADING-EDGE SWEEP December 1974" this can explain why the J-20 has canard with dihedral



On the F-22, F-35, SU-57 and J-31 the horizontal stabilizer is hidden by the main wing and parallel to the main wing too so it keeps the planform alignment thus helping stealth.

J-20`s canard is an extra reflecting surface from a frontal view by not being hidden by the main wing, it is neither parallel with the wing or the vertical stabilizer, therefore it is breaking planform alignment, further more F-22 has thrust vectoring for trimming during cruise flight, J-20 has not thrust vectoring forcing the canard to deflect more during cruise flight, thus J-20 is not as stealthy as F-22 or even X-36.

On X-36 the canard does not have dihedral and it keeps planform alignment by being coplanar with the wing

MiG-29SMT said:

“The J-20, in my estimation, would be dead long before it had the ability to maneuver against either the F-22 or the F-35,” [Venable] said. “It’s got enough spikes on it to where the radar returns on it are likely to be much more significant, which means that the F-22 and the F-35 can see it a lot farther away.”

https://simpleflying.com/chengdu-j-20-what-to-know-about-mighty-dragon/

View attachment 258455



Canards are also a good way to increase radar cross section and compromise the other stealth features. Unless the canards have to be on the same plane with the wings, they would significantly contribute to increase RCS regardless they are moving or not from 12 o'clock head on. And even if it's being aligned with the wings on the same plane and angles both horizontally and vertically, it would still contribute to increasing RCS nonetheless from a diagonal view.



https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/j-20-design.htm

View attachment 258458

J-20 has uneven surfaces after its side weapons bays and round engine nacelles,to reduce cross section and follow the Whitcomb area rule aerodynamic principles, plus Chengdu fitted the J-20 with ventral fins for lateral. and directional stability because the dorsal V tail was not enough for controlling the aircraft at high Angle of attacks; however this generates resonance and radar signature for ground radar. These features also reduced its stealth features.

China lacks Thrust vectoring, contrary to Russia or the USA, so they were forced by limitations to break the stealth technology rules and prioritize aerodynamics, thus Chengdu set the canards with dihedral and fitted the J-20 with ventral fins.

Would have Chengdu used LEVCONs on J-20 and thrust vectoring the machine would had kept stealth and performance at the same time, but the V vertical tail it has can not work as the single pitch authority aerodynamic control so they added canards and ventral fins.


Studies have shown that for angles of attack greater than 16 degrees, an increase in the canard sweep results in an increase in lift developed by the canard when the canard is above or in the wing chord plane. This increased lift results in a lift increase for the total configuration for the canard above the wing chord plane.
For the canard in the wing chord plane, the increased canard lift is partially lost by increased interference on the wing.
View attachment 258459


For the configurations with the canard in the wing chord plane, increasing the canard dihedral angle from -18.60 to 18.60 increased the maximum lift coefficient of the configuration. For the configurations
with the canard above the wing chord plane, the highest maximum lift coefficient was
developed when the canard had no dihedral.

"THE EFFECT OF CANARD LEADING-EDGE SWEEP December 1974" this can explain why the J-20 has canard with dihedral

View attachment 258461

On the F-22, F-35, SU-57 and J-31 the horizontal stabilizer is hidden by the main wing and parallel to the main wing too so it keeps the planform alignment thus helping stealth.

J-20`s canard is an extra reflecting surface from a frontal view by not being hidden by the main wing, it is neither parallel with the wing or the vertical stabilizer, therefore it is breaking planform alignment, further more F-22 has thrust vectoring for trimming during cruise flight, J-20 has not thrust vectoring forcing the canard to deflect more during cruise flight, thus J-20 is not as stealthy as F-22 or even X-36.

On X-36 the canard does not have dihedral and it keeps planform alignment by being coplanar with the wing

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Chinese and their Propaganda Machinery unnecessarily hypes this plane. I have told this many time on many forums. This so called fifth generation plane has no fifth generation stuff in it. Outdated design (Su 30 MKI detected it from 300 KM away), outdated Russian engine or its even worse copy, outdated radar, outdated weapons, Poor maneuverability, big cross section unfit for BVR combat or close combat. Inspite of all this, Chinese plane is fifth generation.

HariPrasad-1 said:

Chinese and their Propaganda Machinery unnecessarily hypes this plane. I have told this many time on many forums. This so called fifth generation plane has no fifth generation stuff in it. Outdated design (Su 30 MKI detected it from 300 KM away), outdated Russian engine or its even worse copy, outdated radar, outdated weapons, Poor maneuverability, big cross section unfit for BVR combat or close combat. Inspite of all this, Chinese plane is fifth generation.

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Right in this thread, there was a pro made some serious article and did simulation. I was trying to have deeper dicussion with the real pro guy, but he kept on using the no sense shit to pollute the thread and made that guy disapeared from here.

Mr Mig29-SMT just make-up as pro, and keep on posting some no sense stuff repeatly and repeatly, if you check pages back, he got banned for 2 weeks on wasting forum resources.

He is actually had no job, didn't write any line of code, keep on posting things already from other web.

Most people with good IT background has ability to run some simulation tool and get better conclusion...
He didn't, just act like "i m smarter than plane designer" stuff...

The real pro's article:

rockdog said:

View attachment 258617

J20 Stealth Fighter

okay moron listen, they were estimations moron, plus they were upon a time they thought that number was right you are a hypocrite since they update their estimates, there are not official numbers so stop annoying with your farse of being right hypocrite. And I am answering based upon my...

defenceforumindia.com

Right in this thread, there was a pro made some serious article and did simulation. I was trying to have deeper dicussion with the real pro guy, but he kept on using the no sense shit to pollute the thread and made that guy disapeared from here.

Mr Mig29-SMT just make-up as pro, and keep on posting some no sense stuff repeatly and repeatly, if you check pages back, he got banned for 2 weeks on wasting forum resources.

He is actually had no job, didn't write any line of code, keep on posting things already from other web.

Most people with good IT background has ability to run some simulation tool and get better conclusion...
He didn't, just act like "i m smarter than plane designer" stuff...

The real pro's article:

J-20 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction J-20 is the world’s third operational fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft after the F-22 and F-35. It made China the second country in the world af…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

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I already had a heated debate about the J-20 with another user in this thread two years ago in Summer of 2022, and now at this point I am going to put him (I advice you do the same too) in my ignore list.

You can't argue with someone who will start with "J-20 is Junk, It's a third generation aircraft, it's inferior to anything in IAF's arsenal, it has no characteristics of a fifth generation fighter...Blah Blah".

It's a good thing though the IAF knows how capable the J-20 is, while it may not be the game-changer or F-22/F-35 killer it is touted to be by the CCP, it's in no way something to take lightly. IAF doesn't think like nationalists spouting nonsense.

Posting the link to my original posts.

About the J-20 being detected by the BARS radar of the Su-30MKI, I have no information at what distance the Flanker's radar picked up the J-20 but I can certainly put forth some points.
1. When IAF says that it detected the J-20, it is not lying. IAF's Sukhoi that day picked up something on its radar that didn't match any other aircraft in its RCS library so they were sure that it was not J-16, J-10, JF-17, F-16 but an entirely new aircraft. I am sure that IAF has detected J-20 on multiple occasions.
2. J-20 by its design is not a VLO aircraft in the likes of the F-22 or even the F-35. But J-20 is a LO aircraft that has a lower RCS than the Su-57 but greater RCS than the F-22/F-35 as proven by comparing their contours.

J-20's Radar scattering simulation.

Su-57's Radar scattering simulation.

F-35's Radar scattering simulation.
Compare their radar contour and we can see that J-20 is more stealthy than Su-57 but less than F-35.
3. At Certain angles, a stealth aircraft may expose a very bad angle and hence the RCS return will be much more significant. I think the J-20 that day may have been carrying radar reflectors/luneberg lenses and hence greatly increased its RCS on purpose so that it can be tracked easily or hide it's true RCS but it's RCS is not something that China can hide forever or maybe the J-20 exposed a bad angle or maybe it's just a big jet painted in black to give the impression of a stealth aircraft.
4. Stealth does not mean that an aircraft is invisible, it just means it's a lot more difficult to detect on radar. If stealth technology were some marketing propaganda then why is Russia making Su-57 & Su-75? Why is India making AMCA? Why is China making J-20? Because these nations understand that stealth=RCS reduction is the future of modern warfare.

Rest, we can have a constructive discussion about the J-20 to assess and gauge its true capabilities, not trolling by nationalists.

HariPrasad-1 said:

Chinese and their Propaganda Machinery unnecessarily hypes this plane. I have told this many time on many forums. This so called fifth generation plane has no fifth generation stuff in it. Outdated design (Su 30 MKI detected it from 300 KM away), outdated Russian engine or its even worse copy, outdated radar, outdated weapons, Poor maneuverability, big cross section unfit for BVR combat or close combat. Inspite of all this, Chinese plane is fifth generation.

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Aircraft are complex, so generalizations are like any thing in life be taken carefully.


Aircraft are multifaceted things, why? because things are relative and different factors are involved, you have to consider them.

Factor A; is purpose

This means the aerodynamic configuration is made for a need.

If you compare a AA-007, that is an agricultural aircraft with J-20 obviously it is a mismatch, since AA-007 is designed to fly low, slow, being light, cheap, easy to make and for agrigultural purposes.

Can J-20 fly at the low speeds AA-07 can? the answer is not, J-20 is designed to fly at speeds of Mach 0.9 to Mach 1.8 and the clue is its inlet, DSI is for speeds in that range. AA-007 is designed for speeds of 100-200 km/h , so the advantage each aircraft has depends in its purpose.
In few words its uses.



Now next factor, is the way it is flown or operational use.

.

Can an LCA beat a J-20? the answer is yes, regardless what fans say, a well flown LCA can beat J-20 if the J-20 is used in an incorrect way.

A possible way is simple J-20 are on the ground LCA is used like the IDF attacked egyptian air bases in 1967 or MiG-17s downed american aircraft in Vietnam.

All aircraft are designed with a configuration that exploits some points but loses some features.

LCA is tailess, tailess is the stealthiest wing-tail configuration, the proof are NGAD, YF-23, Checkmate.

LCA is very small, it is hard to see with the naked eye, on a head on in terms of stealth only disdavantge are creeping wave due to rounded cross section and carrying weapons externally.

So on a head on very lightly armed is pretty stealthy, obviously is not a dedicated stealth fighter, in terms of design but the engine is well hidden, head on only disadvantage versus J-20 is external weapons carriage and the intake and boundary layer splitter.

So lightly armed it has a small but a change to beat J-20.

Now we go to mission.

Mission is what they call generation.
5th generation means fly stealthy, supercruise, super agility, and advaced sensor fusion.

There you have F-35, F-22, F-20 etc etc all modern fighters with stealth dedicated features.

J-20 was designed obviously with a mission of being stealthy, and it is flown differently to F-22 or F-35.

all designers know advantages and disadvantages of each and every one aerodynamic configuration, but because the way they will fly their aircraft they will chose what aerodynamic configuration they will use.

For example
J-20 has ventral fins, which are bad for stealth but good for high AoA if you have small dorsal vertical canted fins.

J-20 is a very large aircraft so at high AOA its long fuselage blankets the small dorsal vertical all moving fins, canting the vertical fins means they lose directional control, but add slight lift.


Same applies to canards, canards are not good for stealth, but are good for delta wings and for instantaneous turn rate


So the J-20 is a large F-35 but since is too big, and originally was designed with weak engines, they added canards and ventral fins to offset for the inferior engines.

Regardless what the Chinese fans say

In terms of canard delta design Rafale is superior in aerodynamics but inferior in stealth to J-20.

the canard design on Rafale is better because it is above wing level and closer to the wing
F-35 and F-22 are superior in stealth but F-35 could be comparable to J-20 in agility and performance.

The quality of modern WS-15 is still to be seen, same avionics.

That only can be seen in combat or with a manual.
Or if they capture one.