India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

Bhartiya said:

No matter how much u update it, it is from the 80's, its useless... But then, saudi has oil , I wonder why it even needs an army

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The F-15 is still an excellent fighter. Boeing has done quite a job keeping it up to date. It certainly has unmatched payload ability, top speed well over mach 2.5, combine that with new AESA, new DAWS, IRST and other neat avionics, it still remains a potent multirole fighter. Plus it can also deploy a vast array of unkil's finest weapons, you end up with a fighter can give even the latest gen fighter a run for their money. Plus Saudi already has a vast infrastructure to operate the F-15, it doesn't have to indulge in new infra setups which becomes inevitable when you get a brand new fighter. They also have a lot of exp operating them.

Besides Saudi does need a strong AF, they particularly dont like Iran and it is safer for them to have stay under unkil's protective arm.

Yawn said:

By your logic, the SU-30 should also be useless since it is from the 80s. And the Typhoon/Rafale was also designed in the 80s.

No aircraft flying today matches the range/payload capacity of the F-15E and that matters.

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BTW the F-15 is a very early 1970s design.

vanadium said:

Please note that Typhoon in The Netherlands, South Korea and Singapore was a Tranche 1 configuration (A-A only) and winners were deep strike a/c (F-15E and JSF). More or less the same in Singapore. In Brazil Typhoon entered the competition too late and did not make it to the finals for lack of information.
Typhoon has been selected over Rafale in Saudi and in Greece (even though Greece suspended the procurement for lack of finance). Did better in Norway (not many people are familiar...). Typhoon was also selected in Austria.
Typhoon proposed in India is a much more mature and competent weapon system than those early competitions so it should do better than Rafale in India...
Only wins matter. Like in air combat, coming second is no good!

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OK, we know now that you prefer the Typhoon, but your information is mostly wrong or at least distorted.

1) In the Netherlands even the performance of the Tranche 3 was evaluated and considered as slightly below the Rafale F3's. The F4 will enter in production in 2013. The Dutch chart doesn't even take into account the Tranche 1.
A copy of the results summary in Dutch was posted here about 3 weeks ago:
http://defenceforumindia.com/indian...-opens-bids-10-4-bn-combat-32.html#post371613

2) There was no real competition in Saudi Arabia and no comparative technical evaluation at all. As everybody knows, this is a market that belongs to UK and USA. Furthermore it is well known that there was a case of corruption that led the Saudis to make pressure on Tony Blair (among other things by negotiationg with the French) in order to stop the investigations on that case. You can find enough sources which report about it. Needless to tell you that you should know the circumstances of the Austrian decision, which is still under investigations in Austria and turned finally to a ridicoulus deal wanted by Mr. Darabos... BTW Rafale was not offered and Dassault refused to bid for the Mirage for reasons of more or less "foregone conclusion".

3) Pls give me a link that confirms a final and official decision from Greece pro EF. It is true that Greece prefers the EF, but mainly for political reasons. Furthermore, no technical evaluation or comparison of the two has been released.

4) You forgot the most recent technical evaluation in CH (2009), which placed the Typhoon far behind Rafale overall and in air combat. I wonder why Typhoon should be better for India, as we are talking about a mrca (which includes a2g where Rafale does far better and did far better in Libya).
In Asia Times, Kotsev wrote earlier this year:

«"¦India just shortlisted the fighter plane as one of two remaining competitors in a lucrative deal worth US$11 billion. The other competitor (surprise?) is the Typhoon Eurofighter of the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company. According to a former aircraft specialist and military analyst interviewed by Asia Times Online, this has everything to do with lessons from the Libyan war.

»The source, who asked not to be identified by name, said that air-superiority fighter jets with secondary ground-strike capabilities, for example the F-16 and the Mirage 2000, had failed miserably to change facts on the ground in the campaign against Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. This was also demonstrated by Gaddafi's use of agricultural airplanes flying at low altitudes on Saturday to bomb fuel tanks in the rebel city of Misrata.
»The rebels claim that they notified the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) about the approaching government planes (speaking about real-time coordination between the rebels and NATO), but "there was no response". The expert mentioned above explained that low-flying aircraft posed a difficult challenge to airborne radars, while any target flying below 100 meters of altitude was invisible. More maneuverable, lower-speed and lower-altitude aircraft, he added, had achieved most of the results so far. Indeed, the most significant rebel territorial gains occurred when close air support planes such as the American AC-130s and A-10C Thunderbolt IIs were in the air. More recently, Gaddafi pulled his forces out of Misrata when Predator drones showed up. The Rafale, however, has also done relatively well, alongside the aging British Tornado.
»The Rafale, which entered service in 2000, is of particular interest, both because of the political-economic implications of its wide use and its unique characteristics. By contrast, the other competitor for the Indian market, the Typhoon, has only showed up sporadically over Libya, and rarely if ever in ground-strike roles.."

You try to lead us to believe that EF is the superior mrca aircraft, but there is no technical evaluation where it performed better than Rafale so far. On the contrary, there are many where Rafale did. In all technical evaluations that have been released, the Rafale was better, even in the recently published Swiss evaluation from 09.
Neither export success of the Typhoon was preceded by a technical competition including Typhoon and Rafale. Both decisions were overshadowed by at least dubious circumstances.

5) It is true that the French wanted the leadership, but the main reason why they left the European project was the concept of the future aircraft. While the other partners wanted an air superiority fighter, the French thought already about developing a mrca.
BTW it is not true that the M-88 is techologically inferior tu the EJ of the Typhoon. It has less power, but still enough and has other advantages in terms of maintenance and can be replaced within 2 hrs.

Once again, EF's air superiority over Rafale has not been proven, on the contrary. Armasuisse considered the EF inferior in this field and the difference was not really close.

Let's summarize in German/Austrian: emotionaler Auftritt mit vielen Unwahrheiten und Tatsachenverdrehungen, Befangenheit kann man auch etwas weniger offenlegen.

Yawn said:

Mature or not, the Typhoon still comes integrated only with the Paveway-II/IV series of bombs. We have been hearing of integration of the Brimstone, cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles and what not for more than a decade, but progress has been excruciatingly low... at best. That is one area where the Rafale is better since a full configuration bird is currently flying with the French.

About Greece, the Rafale and a host of American birds were in contention, so the talk of it being 'selected' is at best speculation.

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The integration of any weapon (A-A or A-G) depends upon a customer asking for it. For the time being the stores you have quoted are part of the Air Staff planning but no integration activity has been yet funded. So talking of "excruciatingly slow" progress seems pretty unfair.

In Greece Typhoon, Rafale, F-15E, F-16C Block 50+, F/A-18E and Gripen have been evaluated and eventually Typhoon was declared the winner and selected for contract negotiations. These are facts and not speculations. Also factual is the subsequent decision by the Hellenic government to suspend the Typhoon procurement due to financial difficulties. These came obvious later and are now a pretty well known event. Whatever the end game, the important fact is that Typhoon was considered the winner of the Hellenic AF requirement and was selected over the other contenders.

vanadium said:

The Indian configuration Typhoon is already superior to Rafale. I just mention two vital fighter equipments: the engine and the big aperture re-positionable AESA radar. I debated quite profusely (in July) about the superior supersonic performance of the aerodynamic platform. so I will not repeat.
The French will join the other European nations for their future fighter requirement IF they can be MORE EQUAL than the other partners and lead the project. That is their idea of partnership. So beware! Let us not forget that the French were members of the original European Fighter Aircraft (which led to Typhoon and Rafale), but left for a couple of reasons. One minor reasons was the insistence in leading the project, which was obviously not accepted by the other four partners. The other--more serious--was that they wanted to impose a less technologically advanced French engine on the Rolls-Royce derived core engine. That was a totally unacceptable sacrifice for the other four nations and Air Forces. So the French ended up on their own and with a crappy engine, which every prospective customer who has evaluated it asked for heavy modifications. I should also mention the radar aperture (much smaller than Typhoon´s), but then the story would become very long...

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Maybe AESA Radar is with smaller aperture, but at least it has entered production already. As we are used to delays and delays in the EF program, nobody knows when the ASEA will be available for the Typhoon.
The M-88 is not crappy at all and the doubts of the UAE on its performance could be removed during tests in UAE and during the Libya war, where Rafale engines performed very well. Finally it is not true, that every prospective customer asked for heavy modifications. Neither the Swiss, nor Brazil, nor India, nor South Korea asked for heavy modifications of the M-88.

And we should not forget, that full A2G capabilities of EF will be available not before 2018. So far, EF is an air superiority fighter, but far from being a MRCA.

Finally, SPECTRA gives, between others, better virtual stealth capabilities to Rafale. Rafale is more close to a fifth generation fighter than EF so far.

vanadium said:

The integration of any weapon (A-A or A-G) depends upon a customer asking for it. For the time being the stores you have quoted are part of the Air Staff planning but no integration activity has been yet funded. So talking of "excruciatingly slow" progress seems pretty unfair.

In Greece Typhoon, Rafale, F-15E, F-16C Block 50+, F/A-18E and Gripen have been evaluated and eventually Typhoon was declared the winner and selected for contract negotiations. These are facts and not speculations. Also factual is the subsequent decision by the Hellenic government to suspend the Typhoon procurement due to financial difficulties. These came obvious later and are now a pretty well known event. Whatever the end game, the important fact is that Typhoon was considered the winner of the Hellenic AF requirement and was selected over the other contenders.

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Do you have sources for the Helenic evaluation? I guess, as it is the case in other countries, that a ranking or sthg. similar has been published. I could not find anything.
It is matter of a fact, that Athens prefers EF for politico-economic reasons, but where is the technical evaluation with EF first?

Yawn said:

How exactly are the Rafale's engines inferior?

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Without going too much into detail, the EJ200 produces more thrust per engine weight (T/W ratio) and more thrust for unit of airflow (specific thrust). These two end point parameters summarize that the EJ200 it is technically more efficient without having to enter complex (and confidential) engineering discussion. Another example is that EJ requires one less compression stage to extract similar compression ratios, testifying to superior internal aerodynamics. Engine change is 45 minutes BTW. The technology in Eurojet comes from the following partners different areas of excellence, which when joined and combined deliver superior results:
Rolls-Royce master in hot ends technologies in military and civil applications
MTU world leader in internal aerodynamics and compressor technology
Avio world leader in complex and heavy duty gearing

arundo said:

Do you have sources for the Helenic evaluation? I guess, as it is the case in other countries, that a ranking or sthg. similar has been published. I could not find anything.
It is matter of a fact, that Athens prefers EF for politico-economic reasons, but where is the technical evaluation with EF first?

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No reference and lazy to go and look for it, I guess. I have anyhow an amazing memory and I recall pretty well the narrative I described succinctly.
As a matter of fact the Hellenic Air Force has a strong bias towards US fighters as testified by a Force with some 130 F-16, some 90 A-7, more than 50 F-4 Phantom and F-5, F-104, F-86 in the past. They also fly some Mirage 2000. So the Typhoon victory in Greece was a breakthrough in US procurement pattern.

It seems to me you find hard to swallow the fact that Typhoon can be selected for technical-operational reasons. Of course also political, economical, industrial considerations enter the complex selection process matrix.

arundo said:

Maybe AESA Radar is with smaller aperture, but at least it has entered production already. As we are used to delays and delays in the EF program, nobody knows when the ASEA will be available for the Typhoon.
The M-88 is not crappy at all and the doubts of the UAE on its performance could be removed during tests in UAE and during the Libya war, where Rafale engines performed very well. Finally it is not true, that every prospective customer asked for heavy modifications. Neither the Swiss, nor Brazil, nor India, nor South Korea asked for heavy modifications of the M-88.

And we should not forget, that full A2G capabilities of EF will be available not before 2018. So far, EF is an air superiority fighter, but far from being a MRCA.

Finally, SPECTRA gives, between others, better virtual stealth capabilities to Rafale. Rafale is more close to a fifth generation fighter than EF so far.

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Radar aperture matters a lot as every fighter pilot will tell you! I will always go for the more powerful radar and engine, so Typhoon is definitely better endowed in this critical area so vital for winning the air battle. Typhoon radar is not only bigger and more powerful, but thanks to its repositioning technology covers much more volume than Rafale´s (200deg azimuth vs 120deg). This parameter is of fundamental importance in surviving a BVR missile exchange, as every well versed fighter pilot will tell you. Associated to the capability to sustain a high G turn at high altitude and Mach number (definitely not a strength in Rafale!), such combinations will produce air supremacy. Should the combination of high supersonic maneuverability and radar field of view not suffice to defeat a multiple missile counter fire, Typhoon not only has a state-of-the-art active ECM, but also very capable and effective towed decoys as a last ditch defence. No such key devices on Rafale´s Spectra, I am afraid...

The M88-2 is OK for cruising to uncontested airspace such as in Libya. The problems come when you want to accelerate to high supersonic speed where modern air combat against high end fighters takes place. That part of the envelope was not touched in Libya as there were no air combats. The UAE are concerned about such deficiencies (and hot weather field performance too) as they would have to face the Iranians and they reckon--as most informed observers--that the the M88-2 is underpowered. Sorry for the "crappy" adjective; it is a decent engine for air-to-surface operations but not adequate for high end BVR combat of the future.

Vanadium,
I like your analysis, I think typhoon has very good chances to succeed . Typhoon is indeed a better product and
Also offers better tot. Which would be the key in long run. The rafale and JSF are only good for A to G and are not good
For A to A. Also British foreign minister has on record said that all the key technologies , like engine tech etc, would be provided
To India overtime, as Indian builds trust with these countries. French cannot be trusted, they think that their products are superior
And won't mind selling them to china. French pride is going to be hit badly this time.

arundo said:

OK, we know now that you prefer the Typhoon, but your information is mostly wrong or at least distorted.

1) In the Netherlands even the performance of the Tranche 3 was evaluated and considered as slightly below the Rafale F3's. The F4 will enter in production in 2013. The Dutch chart doesn't even take into account the Tranche 1.
A copy of the results summary in Dutch was posted here about 3 weeks ago:
http://defenceforumindia.com/indian...-opens-bids-10-4-bn-combat-32.html#post371613

2) There was no real competition in Saudi Arabia and no comparative technical evaluation at all. As everybody knows, this is a market that belongs to UK and USA. Furthermore it is well known that there was a case of corruption that led the Saudis to make pressure on Tony Blair (among other things by negotiationg with the French) in order to stop the investigations on that case. You can find enough sources which report about it. Needless to tell you that you should know the circumstances of the Austrian decision, which is still under investigations in Austria and turned finally to a ridicoulus deal wanted by Mr. Darabos... BTW Rafale was not offered and Dassault refused to bid for the Mirage for reasons of more or less "foregone conclusion".

3) Pls give me a link that confirms a final and official decision from Greece pro EF. It is true that Greece prefers the EF, but mainly for political reasons. Furthermore, no technical evaluation or comparison of the two has been released.

4) You forgot the most recent technical evaluation in CH (2009), which placed the Typhoon far behind Rafale overall and in air combat. I wonder why Typhoon should be better for India, as we are talking about a mrca (which includes a2g where Rafale does far better and did far better in Libya).
In Asia Times, Kotsev wrote earlier this year:

«"¦India just shortlisted the fighter plane as one of two remaining competitors in a lucrative deal worth US$11 billion. The other competitor (surprise?) is the Typhoon Eurofighter of the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company. According to a former aircraft specialist and military analyst interviewed by Asia Times Online, this has everything to do with lessons from the Libyan war.

»The source, who asked not to be identified by name, said that air-superiority fighter jets with secondary ground-strike capabilities, for example the F-16 and the Mirage 2000, had failed miserably to change facts on the ground in the campaign against Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. This was also demonstrated by Gaddafi's use of agricultural airplanes flying at low altitudes on Saturday to bomb fuel tanks in the rebel city of Misrata.
»The rebels claim that they notified the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) about the approaching government planes (speaking about real-time coordination between the rebels and NATO), but "there was no response". The expert mentioned above explained that low-flying aircraft posed a difficult challenge to airborne radars, while any target flying below 100 meters of altitude was invisible. More maneuverable, lower-speed and lower-altitude aircraft, he added, had achieved most of the results so far. Indeed, the most significant rebel territorial gains occurred when close air support planes such as the American AC-130s and A-10C Thunderbolt IIs were in the air. More recently, Gaddafi pulled his forces out of Misrata when Predator drones showed up. The Rafale, however, has also done relatively well, alongside the aging British Tornado.
»The Rafale, which entered service in 2000, is of particular interest, both because of the political-economic implications of its wide use and its unique characteristics. By contrast, the other competitor for the Indian market, the Typhoon, has only showed up sporadically over Libya, and rarely if ever in ground-strike roles.."

You try to lead us to believe that EF is the superior mrca aircraft, but there is no technical evaluation where it performed better than Rafale so far. On the contrary, there are many where Rafale did. In all technical evaluations that have been released, the Rafale was better, even in the recently published Swiss evaluation from 09.
Neither export success of the Typhoon was preceded by a technical competition including Typhoon and Rafale. Both decisions were overshadowed by at least dubious circumstances.

5) It is true that the French wanted the leadership, but the main reason why they left the European project was the concept of the future aircraft. While the other partners wanted an air superiority fighter, the French thought already about developing a mrca.
BTW it is not true that the M-88 is techologically inferior tu the EJ of the Typhoon. It has less power, but still enough and has other advantages in terms of maintenance and can be replaced within 2 hrs.

Once again, EF's air superiority over Rafale has not been proven, on the contrary. Armasuisse considered the EF inferior in this field and the difference was not really close.

Let's summarize in German/Austrian: emotionaler Auftritt mit vielen Unwahrheiten und Tatsachenverdrehungen, Befangenheit kann man auch etwas weniger offenlegen.

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OK, I admit to preferring Typhoon: it is not yet a crime as far as I know"¦

Now, let me give you some facts.

1) Ten years ago when the Dutch carried out an an analysis of alternatives to the JSF (the one and only real contender in that exercise, to be honest with you) the Tranche 3 configuration of Typhoon did not exist. There were only conceptual ideas as there might be concepts for a Tranche 4 or 5 today. So that chart is based on very shaky grounds for what concerns Typhoon.

2) Saudi Arabia traditionally procures fighters from the US and UK, as testified by the recent F-15 deal and the previous Typhoon order. The latter order was heavily contested by Rafale too. Had Rafale offered better overall value than Typhoon, the Saudi might have procured it, as there is no divine rule that says "Buy British". Saudis buy a lot of military equipment from France, they assessed Rafale intensively and—like every potential Rafale customer—eventually declined politely and selected Typhoon.
In Austria Dassault entered with the Mirage 2000, Lockheed with the F-16 but the finals were between Gripen and Typhoon. I guess SAAB was too overconfident to win, given its traditional role of supplier in Austria, and paid the ultimate price of "arrogance" by offering a deal that was less cost-effective than Eurofighter. These are the facts; the rest is sour grapes raised by political opponents.

3) See my answer in previous postings today.

4) See my answer in previous postings today.

5) The French, I would say rightly from their narrow national interest viewpoint, wanted to maintain and grow their engine design competencies and pushed to have the M88 as the baseline for the new European fighter. The rest of the pack (UK, Germany, Italy and Spain) assessed that the EJ200, based on a Rolls-Royce new core engine design, was much more technologically advanced than the one proposed by the second-tier SNECMA company. Being engines—as radars—vital components of a fighter, no compromise was possible to satisfy the French national interests. I guess one could have eventually reached a solution on the governance model and the French burning ambition to be nominated the leader of the joint venture. But putting the M88 in the Typhoon was a price too high to pay!

An anecdote on the difficult art/science of assessing complex combat aircraft. During the Brazilian evaluation of their new fighter, at different stages of the final competition each of the three contenders (Rafale, Gripen NG and Super Hornet) appeared at the top of the list. It is not manipulation or forgery. It is simply a matter of giving emphasis or more weight to one set of parameters rather than other. The end result is completely different, but the airplanes and their capabilities remain the same. What changes is how the assessor value certain qualities over others. It is a highly discretional process even in the technical-operational area where parameters are more easily quantifiable. When you add less numerate disciplines such as IP and ToT benefits and geo-political considerations, the situation becomes truly difficult to de-cypher, unless you have insider information.

From what I know and read online the Rafale has better low altitude performance and better A2G capability so I would guess its a better choice for the IAF considering that by 2025 jaguars and the mig 27's are going to be phased out. That would leave us with MKI which is more a air superiority fighter than ground attack plane, PAK FA also for air superiority, mirages and mig 29's will be nearing their end of life.. interdiction,deep strike CAS can be carried out with the Rafale

my 2 paise

noob101 said:

From what I know and read online the Rafale has better low altitude performance and better A2G capability so I would guess its a better choice for the IAF considering that by 2025 jaguars and the mig 27's are going to be phased out. That would leave us with MKI which is more a air superiority fighter than ground attack plane, PAK FA also for air superiority, mirages and mig 29's will be nearing their end of life.. interdiction,deep strike CAS can be carried out with the Rafale

my 2 paise

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If you freeze the time and believe that Typhoon will not move you might be right, but that is not the case. Typhoon will integrate all the weapons of choice of the IAF in today´s inventory and whatever may be needed in the future. It can carry a huge load (7.5t) over a long distance and put them on target with high precision thanks to an impressive sensor suite. Its large AESA steerable antenna is particularly powerful in SAR mode (much more than small fixed Rafale´s antenna) so targets can be detected earlier and attacked from safer distance. The towed decoys are another key advantage over Rafale in the self-defence suite. Whatever the A-G payload it always can carry four medium range and two short range missiles to self escort itself into the deep or to swing to the A-A role at the touch of a switch. In a nutshell Typhoon will expand the current air superiority capability of the IAF fleet to achieve the supremacy of the air as fast as possible while at the same time offering first class surface attack qualities. This is what the aircraft has been designed for and what is going to achieve pretty soon. Without forgetting the considerable growth potential especially of the engine!

vanadium said:

The integration of any weapon (A-A or A-G) depends upon a customer asking for it. For the time being the stores you have quoted are part of the Air Staff planning but no integration activity has been yet funded. So talking of "excruciatingly slow" progress seems pretty unfair.

In Greece Typhoon, Rafale, F-15E, F-16C Block 50+, F/A-18E and Gripen have been evaluated and eventually Typhoon was declared the winner and selected for contract negotiations. These are facts and not speculations. Also factual is the subsequent decision by the Hellenic government to suspend the Typhoon procurement due to financial difficulties. These came obvious later and are now a pretty well known event. Whatever the end game, the important fact is that Typhoon was considered the winner of the Hellenic AF requirement and was selected over the other contenders.

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Progress is progress. Why should India pay for integration of strike weapons when the US and French systems come with full packages.

About Greece, when exactly did Eurofighter win? Last time I remember, they decided against buying 60 odd Eurofighters and went for the F-16. By your logic, the Rafale should be the winner for the UAE and Brazil.

vanadium said:

Without going too much into detail, the EJ200 produces more thrust per engine weight (T/W ratio) and more thrust for unit of airflow (specific thrust). These two end point parameters summarize that the EJ200 it is technically more efficient without having to enter complex (and confidential) engineering discussion. Another example is that EJ requires one less compression stage to extract similar compression ratios, testifying to superior internal aerodynamics. Engine change is 45 minutes BTW. The technology in Eurojet comes from the following partners different areas of excellence, which when joined and combined deliver superior results:
Rolls-Royce master in hot ends technologies in military and civil applications
MTU world leader in internal aerodynamics and compressor technology
Avio world leader in complex and heavy duty gearing

Click to expand...

That sounds more like a marketing pitch than anything else. The Rafale's engine is adequate for its role as a jack of all trades and its also lighter so downtime should be lower (theoritically).

vanadium said:

If you freeze the time and believe that Typhoon will not move you might be right, but that is not the case. Typhoon will integrate all the weapons of choice of the IAF in today´s inventory and whatever may be needed in the future. It can carry a huge load (7.5t) over a long distance and put them on target with high precision thanks to an impressive sensor suite. Its large AESA steerable antenna is particularly powerful in SAR mode (much more than small fixed Rafale´s antenna) so targets can be detected earlier and attacked from safer distance. The towed decoys are another key advantage over Rafale in the self-defence suite. Whatever the A-G payload it always can carry four medium range and two short range missiles to self escort itself into the deep or to swing to the A-A role at the touch of a switch. In a nutshell Typhoon will expand the current air superiority capability of the IAF fleet to achieve the supremacy of the air as fast as possible while at the same time offering first class surface attack qualities. This is what the aircraft has been designed for and what is going to achieve pretty soon. Without forgetting the considerable growth potential especially of the engine!

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The Typhoon's strike capability will always be a shade below the Rafale or Super Hornet; you can only haul so much fuel/weaponry with 3 heavy hardpoints compared to five on the other two aircraft. However, I don't think that should matter to the IAF.

sukhish said:

Vanadium,
I like your analysis, I think typhoon has very good chances to succeed . Typhoon is indeed a better product and
Also offers better tot. Which would be the key in long run. The rafale and JSF are only good for A to G and are not good
For A to A. Also British foreign minister has on record said that all the key technologies , like engine tech etc, would be provided
To India overtime, as Indian builds trust with these countries. French cannot be trusted, they think that their products are superior
And won't mind selling them to china. French pride is going to be hit badly this time.

Click to expand...

Sukhish,
I appreciate your comments and indeed agree with you that Typhoon is not only a better weapon system with huge capacity for growth, but also that it represents the best in terms of ToT potential.
Let´s examine the Transfer of Technology aspects. First of all you must have the right technology and then you can transfer it. It must be top rate technology because in the military field only top rate technology really matters. Being second in air combat, as you know, is being dead.
Dassault is competent in terms of airframe technology and their offer in that field is competitive with the rest of the world. Where the French are not at the leading edge of technology—today as in the past—is in engines and radars. These are exactly the two weak points of the Rafale design. And you do not need second rate technology!
The Eurofighter airframe design is pure state-of-the-art, a truly advanced architectural layout and flight controls and with a wing made entirely in carbon composite.
The Eurojet EJ200 has been defined by the most competent observers as the "benchmark" fighter engine. The true jewel of the Typhoon project and still in its initial configuration and therefore with huge potential for growth. Not only in brutal power, but also in thrust vectoring to increase Typhoon´s supercruising capabilities and handling performance.
The third important element of a combat aircraft is the radar and its integration in the sensor suite. Also here Typhoon offers the most modern fighter radar on the market today, with the latest receiver-transmitter technology combined with a capability to steer the antenna to increase its scan volume and thus the combat effectiveness.
Airframe, propulsion and radar technology at the leading edge of innovation ready to be shared with India in a true and credible spirit of partnership. By a partnership of nations that over more than forty years of cooperation in fighter design have demonstrated with facts that sharing advanced technologies is feasible. As you say trust is important. Without trust such sharing of critical military technologies could have not been achieved and survived the test of time over almost half a century.

Yawn said:

That sounds more like a marketing pitch than anything else. The Rafale's engine is adequate for its role as a jack of all trades and its also lighter so downtime should be lower (theoritically).

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You asked a question. I gave you two key engineering ratios and you call it marketing pitch! These are numbers: go and get them, crunch them and then talk.
The Eurojet partners are recognized worldwide as leaders in the indicated disciplines. Rolls-Royce, with GE and P&W, belongs to the triad of first-tier engine makers mastering the whole propulsion domain, from highest thrust fighter engines to advanced turbofan for civil airliners, in every thrust class. SNECMA belongs to the second tier I am afraid. These are facts not marketing! You may not like them, but that´s a different matter!

The UAE does not agree with your analysis. Also the French recognize that the engine is under powered for top end threat scenarios. The debate between the French and UAE is not about the necessity of the extra thrust, but on who has to pay to squeeze it out. And I tell you, that extra thrust--if it is ever extracted--will come at the expense of the engine life and duration.

vanadium said:

You asked a question. I gave you two key engineering ratios and you call it marketing pitch! These are numbers: go and get them, crunch them and then talk.
The Eurojet partners are recognized worldwide as leaders in the indicated disciplines. Rolls-Royce, with GE and P&W, belongs to the triad of first-tier engine makers mastering the whole propulsion domain, from highest thrust fighter engines to advanced turbofan for civil airliners, in every thrust class. SNECMA belongs to the second tier I am afraid. These are facts not marketing! You may not like them, but that´s a different matter!

The UAE does not agree with your analysis. Also the French recognize that the engine is under powered for top end threat scenarios. The debate between the French and UAE is not about the necessity of the extra thrust, but on who has to pay to squeeze it out. And I tell you, that extra thrust--if it is ever extracted--will come at the expense of the engine life and duration.

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Touche-if the UAE didn't agree with my analysis-why were their reports in mid-2011 that they had decided against pursuing a higher thrust M-88 variant. If the French felt that the engine was underpowered, then they would have included a thrust upgrade for the improved F-3 variant coming out by 2013. But they haven't-either they have no money or they don't think its urgent for their needs.