World's largest solar park to light up Pakistan's future

[Mad Indian]

So this home installation is the study based on which you said that "3 times as costly as conventional sources of electricity"

Look at it like this. You just have the money to buy home PV installation. Since you are somewhat better educated so you add up the subsidy cost too, which is off course reasonable adjustment entry to get to actual cost.

But now think why the hell did the GoI put the cap on power purchases for 4th round of solar bidding at Rs. 5.5 per unit. What are the possible reasons for that.
1) The policy babus must be idiots - that could be a reason but that does not stand the truth serum test. PV power companies are actually willing to bid at that rates.
2) The economics could actually have escaped you. Now that sounds somewhat reasonable conclusion esp. considering the fact that you are possibly comparing your home installation with a commercial plant.

Sir ji, a real apples to apples comparison between your home installed PV power would be with your home installed DG set (Rs. 18 per unit).
For the commercial level the comparison has to be of like scale (MW to MW).
For per unit costs the comparison should be of first year tariffs of currently installed or proposed plants (to validly adjust the discounted cash flows of operations for RM costs, Cost of Capital etc.).
For lifetime costs the comparison has to take into account depreciation of plant, appreciation of land and liquidity of so called regulatory assets through which Kejris of this world cater to their muddle class voters.
If you want to compare Solar to Solar, you will have to compare Phase-wise then Batch-wise then Tranche-wise and then finally Part-wise for the various biddings.

So if are willing to accept that there is some thought applied to the cap of Rs. 5.5 per unit then you will understand how the solar energy could be worked upon in real world.

If the TN govt. is charging Rs. 10 per unit for its Solar power supply then does not necessarily has to imply that solar is expensive.
It could just as easily mean that the power is being supplied from the power plants installed based on the PV power bidding of the first round and the plants of the later rounds have yet to come on line.
There is still a third possibility in that the state govt., knowing that large masses of Indian households and industry are using DG sets, has decided that they will charge Rs. 10 all through the lifetime of the project because that way, they will be able to subsidize the agricultural power.
There is a fourth possibility also, in that the bundled power has still not been, bought or bought into, by TN.

So jinaab, stop being more Mad than Indian.

FYI, GoI is pushing for Solar based UMPPs of 1000 MW now. The earlier styled 50MW-150MW-500MW testing phase is most likely going to be history by the time Modi's first term ends. Enjoy the joyride.

I will see it when it happens dude. Till then I am not going to change my opinion. Its not the first time babus and govt has turned out to be morons to invest in something un economical

 

[Dark Sorrow]

That's puny compared to the no. Of silicosis cases from mining for solar/coal industry. Besides, you do realise fukhisima is a accident while mining is a daily activity?

It was you who first compared silicosis cases from mining for solar/coal industry to fukhisima. I just answered your post.

Hey do do you know the success rate of early aeroplane models? Do you know that aeroplane could only fly 10 minutes back then. So let's abandoned this dangerous air travel and ban then. You know why that would be stupid? Because that was several decades ago. But, you know what is also equally stupid, positing that Chernobyl , a four decade old nuclear plant, run and operated by a bunch of incompetent socialist Buffoon's would have the same safety as the modern highly developed nuclear technology

Here's is a fun fact- the normal aeroplane travel has 5 times the radiation that is present near the reactor cores

Typical Mad Indian mentality post. When you get out of points start making senseless arguments with others.

Here is another fun fact, scientists have ruled out any significant dangers with use of nuclear reactors .. But hey, who needs facts when we can do fear mongering?

Be specific. Where was the study done, what parameters were considered, what approach was taken. Stop making statements in thin air. Every thing is cosidered safe before accidents. The problem with is you don't get seriousness of the situation. You are not ready even to think about perspective problems and hence can't anticipate them, prevent them and be prepared for them.

How much uranium needs to be mined for providing the same electricity as the coal/solar plants

News flash Solar plants don't need fuel to be mined for Electric generation. Its uses photovoltaic effect.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

And let's not use water at all . let's save water and fast ourselves? But seriously, water is for us to exploit. and India is not water scare because of in awailability, but rather mismanagement. India has better per capita availability of water than say China

People are dying due to scarcity of water in out country and you talk about exploiting it

 

[Mad Indian]

People are dying due to scarcity of water in out country and you talk about exploiting it

Correction, people are dying because of improper utilization of water and not because of lack of it. And usage of solar power plant is not going to change it either.

 

[amoy]

real question is how long the bankrupt power utility cos of pakistanis will pay the bills for 3 times higher than market price for the solar power!!!!

It has to be considered within its context. Available options seem -
1) frequent power outage or simply no power at all （OP mentions Pakistan's energy crisis）
2) relatively expensive solar power （normally the national grid can sell electricity at the same rate regardless of energy sources i.e. subsidizing solar power hence min. impact on end users bills）.
3) alternatives like hydro, nuclear etc.

（1）not acceptable in modern societies. Without infra like electricity no development to speak of nor investment. CPEC would be a castle on sands in that case. （3）subject to local feasibility study.

In China electricity is in ample supply. Power shortage is unheard of. Chinese can share the expertise in addition to a deep pocket of foreign reserve for outbound investment. Every investment proposition is supposed to have gone through rigid appraisals to generate a return to shareholders and repay loans.


~Tapa talks: Orange is the new black.~

 

[hit&run]

What is the carbon foot print of making solar panels and other accessories required to run a solar plant ?

I think constructing glass panels on industrial scale use more energy than building a nuclear plant once, for couple of decades.

 

[Mad Indian]

It was you who first compared silicosis cases from mining for solar/coal industry to fukhisima. I just answered your post.

And I said it is lower. And the fact that nuclear deaths happen due to accidents while solar deaths are due to daily activity is just bonus

Typical Mad Indian mentality post. When you get out of points start making senseless arguments with others.

Just because you are stupid does not make my post stupid. What I meant was stop quoting Chernobyl as a valid point of reference because the world has advanced decades into the nuclear energy since chernobyl. Some medieval morons didn't go out of their villages fearing earth was flat. But now that practice would be retarded. Similarly, get out of your archaic bs fears about nuclear energy.

Be specific. Where was the study done, what parameters were considered, what approach was taken. Stop making statements in thin air. Every thing is cosidered safe before accidents. The problem with is you don't get seriousness of the situation. You are not ready even to think about perspective problems and hence can't anticipate them, prevent them and be prepared for them.

The studies conducted by nuclear scientists of course, who else ?

Besides, is there any study to back your claims that nuclear energy causes worse no. Of deaths? Back it up with data from France where nuclear energy supplies 75% of its energy needs.

News flash Solar plants don't need fuel to be mined for Electric generation. Its uses photovoltaic effect.

Hey genius, even the PV cells has a life expectancy. Though they are claimed to come for 20years in practicality, they come only for 2-3years most of the time. And so it is very relevant we compare how much ssilica is mined and is needs for solar power.

And I see you have not commented on the price

 

[Mad Indian]

What is the carbon foot print of making solar panels and other accessories required to run a solar plant ?

I think constructing glass panels on industrial scale use more energy than building a nuclear plant once, for couple of decades.

Yes. You have a point. But even then I am still to get why India or any other developing country should give up carbon foot print. India and other developing countries still have a long way to go before matching the carbon footprint of the west

 

[Sameet Pattnaik]

wait are you making fun of them or something ?

 

[sob]

But you have to consider in the govt subsidies(which again ultimately falls on us) for that, which amount to 50% of the cost of manufacturing. And also the other costs like the batteries ,which form a major chunk of the expenses . Are you sure it costs only 1.25lakhs to 1..5 lakhs in total?. if so it sounds cheaper than inverters we have currently invested in.

For some time now subsidies have not being released by the Govt. Suppliers are offering discounts.

You are correct about the prices. With good battery ( Exide) per KW cost should be between 1.8 to 2 Lakhs.

With a 1 Kw system you should be getting around 6 KWh per day, so around 180 KWh per month. At present the rate is around Rs 6 per Kwh, so you are saving Rs. 840 per month or around Rs 10,000 per year. Taking into account rate increases in future the break even comes in around 6 years. So if SEBs are aggressive in increasing costs the break even period will reduce.

 

[Blackwater]

600 billion rupees circular debt

Gaddani flop

Nandipur flop

Sahiwal coal flop

And now Solar power flops !

 

[rock127]

@Neo : You said you would come back regarding controversy on this Solar power project.

 

[Neo]

In Nathiagali, solar water heaters help move away from wood
By Reuters
Published: September 15, 2015

PHOTO: BIZSOLUTIONS

NATHIAGALI: For the past year, a steady stream of villagers has been visiting Muhammad Naeem’s home in this quaint mountain town in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa (K-P).

They come for one reason: to see for themselves the benefits of his solar water heater.

“A solar geyser does not cause respiratory diseases, it reduces the burden of firewood collection, and it gets rid of kerosene expenses,” the roadside shop owner, 35, tells curious visitors. “My wife no longer burns fuelwood to heat water for cooking, bathing, and washing dishes or laundry.”

At least one of Naeem’s visitors walks away convinced. ”I don’t think anyone could resist owning a solar water geyser himself,” fruit farmer Ali Akbar told the Thomson Reuters Foundation. “It offers so many economic, health and environmental benefits.”

First introduced to Nathiagali six years ago, as part of an initiative by the World Wide Fund for Nature – Pakistan (WWF-Pakistan), roof-top solar water heaters are gaining popularity among the area’s villagers as a cheap, easy, and green alternative to wood and kerosene.

Read: Solar power hits the grid

The heating systems comprise of a set of water-filled solar tubes, called collectors, connected to an insulated water tank above them.

The tubes absorb sunlight to heat the water inside them. As it heats, the water rises into the storage tank. At the same time, cooler water from the tank flows into the collectors to be heated, keeping hot water circulating through the system.

The units require no electricity to run, making them an affordable, convenient option for communities not on the power grid, experts say. Because they produce no smoke or fumes, solar heaters cut down on the respiratory illnesses associated with burning wood and kerosene.

And, crucially, the heating systems help conserve the trees in Nathiagali and three other towns surrounding Ayubia National Park, an area that is home to 4,000 families, most of whom rely on the local forests of oak, cedar and coniferous pine for fuel.

Saving trees

The solar water heating technology first arrived to the towns around the park in 2009, as part of a $48,000 WWF-Pakistan Climate-Resilient Watershed Management Programme funded by the Coca Cola Foundation.

The aim of the project was to curtail deforestation in the area, where over 1,100 mature trees are cut down each year, local forest officials say.

According to Itzaz Mehfooz, a former sub-divisional forest officer, tree cutting has led to problems including soil erosion, landslides, and flash floods, particularly when torrential rains hit.

Read: ‘Punjab’s environment is conducive for solar power’

Forest conservationist and biologist Muhammad Waseem, who heads the organisation’s office in Nathiagali, said the effort started with 27 solar water heating systems installed in mosques and schools to demonstrate to local people the technology’s clean convenience.

Read: Ending energy crisis: Solar plant to start producing 300MW by year’s end, says CM

“Those (initial) geysers saved seven mature pine trees from felling within one year of their installation,” Waseem told TRF. “For the project team, it was highly stunning result and a strong reason to upscale the initiative.”

According to Waseem, the 83 solar units now installed are together saving around 500 tons of fuelwood annually. If all of the households in the area around Ayubia National Park install solar water heaters about 23,000 tons of wood could be saved annually, he said.

Costs and benefits

Soon after the technology was introduced, “villagers started visiting our office to enquire about costs, health benefits, technical specifications, and the sustainability of these solar geysers,” Waseem said. “Soon we started seeing a rise in the number of clean energy geysers being installed by the villagers themselves.”

Azmat Khan, a wholesale solar heater dealer in Islamabad, says that while consumers might balk at the Rs47,000 price tag of a solar water heating unit, it can ultimately be cheaper than using wood or kerosene.

Read: Solar energy: Looking to power the tower

“While solar water heaters do tend to be more expensive upfront, in the long run they can save you a great deal on your monthly energy costs,” he said.

According to Arif Alauddin, former head of Pakistan’s Alternative Energy Development Board, installing a solar water heater can cut household energy consumption by 40-50 per cent.

But Khan sees the benefits of solar heaters reaching beyond the environment and energy bills. “Such initiatives can also improve livelihoods and enhance productivity,” he said, “because less time will be spent on fuelwood collection.”

Women will be the real beneficiaries, said farmer Taj Mohammad, 60, a vegetable farmer from Khun Kalan village in Nathiagali.

“We can no longer afford to send our women out to collect fuelwood from forests while keeping them deprived of such a wonderful technology,” he said.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/957220/in-pakistan-solar-water-heaters-help-a-town-move-away-from-wood/

 

[suhaas neel]

As if I you know anything about what you are talking about.

Nuclear radiation from nuclear plant is hardly twice the normal background radiation from the sun just few meters outside the nuclear reactor core. Yes you read that right. So your fears of radiation is basically a senseless one.

How many people died from Fukushima meltdown vs how many died from silicosis mining silica for solar industry during the same period. Ans- no. of people who died in silicosis is several times times the no. of deaths from radiation from Fukushima

Regarding solar energy, it is awesome to the point of 3 times as costly. But hey, its not like Indians are dirt poor and can't afford a power plant that is 3 times as costly as conventional sources of electricity right? I am sure you would not mind paying 3 times the price for every good you are consuming.

radiation may not be bad in the instant future but it really sucks when u got some problem u cant deal with ...india may be having the technology to install tthe power plants but it takes a lot of precision and precautions to get the right thing out ...also its a too expensive job ...

 

[Mad Indian]

radiation may not be bad in the instant future but it really sucks when u got some problem u cant deal with ...india may be having the technology to install tthe power plants but it takes a lot of precision and precautions to get the right thing out ...also its a too expensive job ...

Solar power which atm is 2 times as expensive as nuclear power is not expensive but nuke power is?

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Solar power which atm is 2 times as expensive as nuclear power is not expensive but nuke power is?

In terms of fixed cost. Also, you need big investment which reap benefits over a longer horizon.

And now with the nuclear liability, India just screwed up the whole industry. But I don't even know how to remove nuclear liability because the risk although low still exists.

 

[Mad Indian]

In terms of fixed cost. Also, you need big investment which reap benefits over a longer horizon.

And now with the nuclear liability, India just screwed up the whole industry. But I don't even know how to remove nuclear liability because the risk although low still exists.

Nope. I am talking about running cost only and not fixed costs. The claims that solar panels last for 2 decades is all fluff. You will be lucky if it lasts 5-6yrs.

Reg liability, Russia has found a way around iy by using insurance and has agreed to liability and now has no issues with liability law. Only the USA and France are bitching about it. And , Even taking that Into liability/insurance consideration, the nuke power gen costs is cheaper than solar and is more reliable. If USA wants business here, they have yo comply with our laws. Till then, we will find the desperate businesses willing to business with us on our terms.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Nope. I am talking about running cost only and not fixed costs. The claims that solar panels last for 2 decades is all fluff. You will be lucky if it lasts 5-6yrs.

Reg liability, Russia has found a way around iy by using insurance and has agreed to liability and now has no issues with liability law. Only the USA and France are bitching about it. And , Even taking that Into liability/insurance consideration, the nuke power gen costs is cheaper than solar and is more reliable. If USA wants business here, they have yo comply with our laws. Till then, we will find the desperate businesses willing to business with us on our terms.

Lets see how many plants we come up with!

 

[Mad Indian]

Lets see how many plants we come up with!

From France and USA . probably not many. But from Rus and others, we can expect a lot.