Under-defended India

[p2prada]

Correction:

The supremacy of any aircraft in the air has profound differences in capabilities based on design.

The supremacy of any aircraft in the air is based on profound differences in capabilities based on design.

 

[Tshering22]

A single MKI is more competitive than half a squadron of LCAs.
Even if we order 1000 LCAs, just 200 MKIs are much more dangerous.

Can you technically prove it taht 200 MKIs > 1000 LCA? Or is it just because MKIs are imported? 3 MKIs have crashed compared to 0 LCAs till now.

Anyway, the bigger issue is LCA is simply not ready. Unless it is ready we cannot talk of series production.

Until the day LCA achieves FOC and sees five years of service, even Bisons will have a field day in a turkey shoot against LCA.

Depending on the future threat perception, IAF can decide whether more LCAs are reasonable or not. As of today LCA orders "may" go up to 178.

An LCA is 20 times more combat ready than the 200+ MiG-21s that are simply death warrants for our young pilots.

If you're telling me that a 40+ year old MiG-21 can do something that a latest Tejas can't do, you're off your rockers, mate.

Until such large orders come through, HAL cannot increase production beyond 8/year. If such orders come through, then LCA orders may cross 20/year.

So, as of today, orders stand at 40 Mk1s and 8 N-MK1s. Hence 8/year is more than enough for this decade considering Mk2 will be ready only after 2018 or 2020.[

That is something we CANNOT afford. If we have to not end up being a Chinese colony, we cannot afford.

 

[vishwaprasad]

So I don't know that it is a wise idea for GOI to follow your advice of expecting China to not to deploy thier full Airforce when we do the same,

For every RAFALE you buy you can have 4 to 5 Tejas mk-2 fighters with same specs if we consider the lifecycle cost in ever depreciating rupee. So it means 28 pylons with BVR ,WVR missiles for Tejas and 7 pylons for RAFALE if the IAF budget isthe same.MK_2 will have a higher topspeed than RAFALE as well.

And if it comes to close combat with WVR once the BVR vollies are over numbers are absolutely important when ITR and STR are comparable.SO air war is not a picnic of choosing fancy less in number foreign fighters over same capacity high in number Indian made fighter.



You can go ,no sane IAF chief will go. Numbers are numbers , Su-30 MKI is not even classified as 4.5th gen fighter is something you forget . Their design is 1980s vintage and chinese know the fighter in and out.

For everySU-30 MKI we deploy Chinese will deploy two of the same SU clones they have.

So your 270MKIs alone is not the sword of the He man to save India from China.

Su -30 MKI canbe detected and tracked at more than thrice the distance needed to track the Tejas because of the massive RCS reflections,

So continuing to argue with guys parroting the view we can spend any number of billions but won't induct Tejas in high numbers when it can do the same job in defending the country's airspace is of no use.

Sir listen...nobody is stopping you from having even 10 tejas instead of 1 rafale....but the problem is even single tajas is not yet officially inducted in air force....that too Mk1 version....so please at least till those 20 odd tajas gets operational like MKI please for god sake do not quote my posts every time if I do not mention Tejas in it....show me those Mk1 "OPERATIONAL" so at least it generates some interest in me to discuss about....till then you can alone stay in your lalala dreamland dreaming about 600 mk1s and mk3 with stealth features....

 

[ersakthivel]

Sir listen...nobody is stopping you from having even 10 tejas instead of 1 rafale....but the problem is even single tajas is not yet officially inducted in air force....that too Mk1 version....so please at least till those 20 odd tajas gets operational like MKI please for god sake do not quote my posts every time if I do not mention Tajas in it....show me those Mk1 "OPERATIONAL" so at least it generates some interest in me to discuss about....till then you can alone stay in your lalala dreamland dreaming about 600 mk1s and mk3 with stealth features....

One SU-30 MKI is trackable from thrice the distance needed to track Tejas or RAFALE or TYPHOON .

This is the crucial difference between all composite skin , below 1 sq meter clean config RCS ,4.5th gen fighter like Tejas

and

all metal 1980s designs with a clean config RCS of more than 5 sq meter designs like SU-30 MKI,


So to intercept the incoming PLAF heavy RCS Su clones Tejas is better suited as it will detect track and fire a BVR on those big RCS planes before they detect track and fire their BVR on it.

If you don't know this crucial difference it is you who is living in lalala dream land filled with almighty Su-30 MKIs.

If SU-30 MKIs are so invincible against modern 4.5th gen fighters like Tejas , why is IAF ready to sink in 20 billlion dollars in RAFALE? Won't a few hundred more much economical MKIs do the same job? Because like tejas RAFALE too is a low below 1 sq meter clean config RCS fighter.

If external stealth weapon bays are fielded in future as it is being fielded in F-15 silent eagle version, The fully loaded RCS of 4.5 the gens like Tejas and RAFALE will be 4 times lower than the SU-30 MKIs with same external weapon bays.

So While no one doubts SU-30 MKIs heavy weapon load ,
long range strike capacity with robust air defence ability ,
supreme agility ,
and lording over the entire indian ocean region in support of Indian Navy with deadly brahmos anti ship misiles ,
there are other roles in IAF which will suit Tejas more. You just can not deny it.

To be placed on forward airfields in heavy numbers ,with quick reaction interception of heavy RCS PLAF , PAF fighters with long range BVRs, and providing close air precision strike support like Mirage-2000 did in Kargil wars to the troops on the front line in huge numbers is the role best suited to tejas .


If you post in a open thread someone will quote you and reply, because this thead or any other thread in any other forum is nobody's ancestral property to post what ever they wish and expect no conclusive rebuttals.

This

 

[vishwaprasad]

One SU-30 MKI is trackable from thrice the distance needed to track Tejas or RAFALE or TYPHOON .

This is the crucial difference between all composite skin , below 1 sq meter clean config RCS ,4.5th gen fighter like Tejas

and

all metal 1980s designs with a clean config RCS of more than 5 sq meter designs like SU-30 MKI,


So to intercept the incoming PLAF heavy RCS Su clones Tejas is better suited as it will detect track and fire a BVR on those big RCS planes before they detect track and fire their BVR on it.

If you don't know this crucial difference it is you who is living in lalala dream land filled with almighty Su-30 MKIs.

If SU-30 MKIs are so invincible against modern 4.5th gen fighters like Tejas , why is IAF ready to sink in 20 billlion dollars in RAFALE? Won't a few hundred more much economical MKIs do the same job? Because like tejas RAFALE too is a low below 1 sq meter clean config RCS fighter.

If external stealth weapon bays are fielded in future as it is being fielded in F-15 silent eagle version, The fully loaded RCS of 4.5 the gens like Tejas and RAFALE will be 4 times lower than the SU-30 MKIs with same external weapon bays.

So While no one doubts SU-30 MKIs heavy weapon load ,
long range strike capacity with robust air defence ability ,
supreme agility ,
and lording over the entire indian ocean region in support of Indian Navy with deadly brahmos anti ship misiles ,
there are other roles in IAF which will suit Tejas more. You just can not deny it.

To be placed on forward airfields in heavy numbers ,with quick reaction interception of heavy RCS PLAF , PAF fighters with long range BVRs, and providing close air precision strike support like Mirage-2000 did in Kargil wars to the troops on the front line in huge numbers is the role best suited to tejas .


If you post in a open thread someone will quote you and reply, because this thead or any other thread in any other forum is nobody's ancestral property to post what ever they wish and expect no conclusive rebuttals.

This

Lol.;..that is why I am saying that nobody is stopping you from having as many numbers of lcas you want....but first get it "operational"....by operational means get it in active air force service, then we will talk....

for now Rafale is one of the best 4.5 generation fighter avail in market for us and its "operational"....for MKI, IAF did not go for Rafale because MKI is not up to the mark....need for MRCA is well documented already and MKIs are more of air superiority fighters which are vulnerable to ground fires if they come close to ground for attack because of its size...for this IAF wants Rafale which is very good ground attack striker with low RCS plus not to mention its multi role capabilities...thanks to SPECTRA as well....this is something IAF is not getting in its LCA other wise they are not fool to spend 30 billion dollors on Rafale....if you want really LCA to be fully homemade then first get our own engine on it...our home made LCAs will be on the mercy of uncle if they are pissed with us.....now imagine if we are buying US made engines to fly our LCAs after spending billions of dollors and wasting so many years (eastern neighbor is test flying 5th generation fighter and we are yet to induct tejas) then imagine the date on which LCA will be flying with homemade engines....so be it homemade LCA its not giving us any freedom till we fly it with Kaveri...I am not even talking about many many other systems which are not INDIAN on this fighter....so first get LCA operational on Uncles engine and then fly and have it in active service...then we will wait for another decade to see it flying with our homemade engines...we are Indians, delays, waits...we are all used to it...

 

[ersakthivel]

Lol.;..that is why I am saying that nobody is stopping you from having as many numbers of lcas you want....but first get it "operational"....by operational means get it in active air force service, then we will talk....

for now Rafale is one of the best 4.5 generation fighter avail in market for us and its "operational"....for MKI, IAF did not go for Rafale because MKI is not up to the mark....need for MRCA is well documented already and MKIs are more of air superiority fighters which are vulnerable to ground fires if they come close to ground for attack because of its size..

So in your opinion RAFALE is not vulnerable to ground fire if it comes too close to ground!!!!!!!! What is the armor on RAFALE?

Well you are on very slippery grounds here. If you are not sure about what you post , don't post.

for this IAF wants Rafale which is very good ground attack striker with low RCS plus not to mention its multi role capabilities...thanks to SPECTRA as well....this is something IAF is not getting in its LCA other wise they are not fool to spend 30 billion dollors on Rafale....

Exactly , in the same manner LCA too is a long range BVR equipped Low RCS 4.5th gen fighter good at intercepting high RCS SU-30 clones from PLAF and PAF F-16s while 200 odd IAF Su-30 MKis are doing duty against PLAF. SO IAF is no fool to spend money on 180 odd LCA mk-1s and MK-2s as well is my point.

if you want really LCA to be fully homemade then first get our own engine on it...our home made LCAs will be on the mercy of uncle if they are pissed with us.....now imagine if we are buying US made engines to fly our LCAs after spending billions of dollors and wasting so many years (eastern neighbor is test flying 5th generation fighter and we are yet to induct tejas)

If so why are we buying up Apaches heavy lift air crafts and javelins along with naval ships from the kind hearted uncle?
Remember while RAFALE is flying with french engines , Tejas is going to fly with US engines till K-10 is developed. So why this condition for local engines for tejas alone.

then imagine the date on which LCA will be flying with homemade engines....so be it homemade LCA its not giving us any freedom till we fly it with Kaveri...I am not even talking about many many other systems which are not INDIAN on this fighter....so first get LCA operational on Uncles engine and then fly and have it in active service...then we will wait for another decade to see it flying with our homemade engines...we are Indians, delays, waits...we are all used to it...

If you say so not a single system on RAFLE is made in India, So what is the difference? Already full rate production of LCA tejas is on . Go to ADA tejas -4 thread to read the interview of the concerned official.More than 140 engines ordered with firm orders for 180 odd birds in mk-1 and Mk-2 variant.

All the test pilots belong to IAF and they know what Tejas is capable of.



http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories889.htm

Air Chief Marshal Naik described the LCA as a Mig 21++, closer to Gripen in its Mark II development.
A Mig 21 is a very old platform, with limited flying time and onboard missiles. LCA, a fourth generation aircraft, is three times as powerful and can carry modern precision missiles for both air to air and air to ground missions. LCA also has ultramodern quadruplex digital fly by wire controls, a glass cockpit, sensors, multi mode radar and relaxed static stability. In addition, it can fly supersonic at all altitudes.
In fact, pilots flying the LCA are happy at its performance. "It is small and tight but more comfortable, powerful and fun than a Mig 21," said one test pilot.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/07/a-bird-in-hand-induct-tejas-mark-i-into.html

It is time to induct the Tejas into the IAF in large numbers, not just to phase out the MiG-21, but also to let line pilots develop confidence in the fighter and allow their feedback to inform further development. But the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has unwisely decided to build just two squadrons of the already developed aircraft --- called Tejas Mark I --- and to start developing an even more capable Tejas Mark II. This is an enormous blunder for at least three reasons.

Firstly, as testified by the IAF test pilots who have flown the Tejas through more than a thousand hours of flight-testing, the current version of the fighter, i.e. the Tejas Mark I, is already a world-class fighter that has achieved most performance landmarks that the IAF had demanded. It flies at Mach 1.6 (about 2,000 kmph), a speed that the IAF is satisfied with. Its state-of-the-art quadruplex digital flight control system makes it a maneuverable and easy-to-fly fighter, unlike the unforgiving MiG-21 that it is slated to replace. The Tejas has not had a single accident so far, testifying to the stability of its design.

Another key measure of a fighter's capability is the Angle of Attack (AoA) it can achieve. The higher the AoA, the more lift that is generated, allowing a fighter to get airborne at slower speeds from short airstrips, e.g. aircraft carriers. The IAF had demanded an AoA of 26 degrees for the Tejas. The Tejas has already been tested to 24 degrees, and is on course to achieve that target.

Says Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Khokhar, who was for years the chief test pilot of the Tejas programme: "The Tejas Mark I is far superior to the MiG-21 fleet that the IAF would have to operate to the end of this decade. In key respects, it is a better fighter than even the Mirage 2000. The Tejas Mark I should enter the IAF's combat fleet in larger numbers and the Tejas Mark II scaled down. This would allow the air force to retire the MiG-21 fleet sooner."

These are the words of men associated with the program , not useless rants from mud headed forum posters.

So now you can sleep in peace about What key personnel in IAF think about tejas mk-1 itself. And don't need to disturb your peace of mind arguing with me

 

[p2prada]

Can you technically prove it taht 200 MKIs > 1000 LCA? Or is it just because MKIs are imported? 3 MKIs have crashed compared to 0 LCAs till now.

For one, the MKI has a very powerful large aperture antenna. The first radar version gives the MKI a first look capability on LCA irrespective of the RCS difference. That's because the RCS difference isn't very significant. The French claimed MKIs had superior situational awareness against Rafales and Mirage-2000s with the same radar during exercises. 100NMI according to the French.

The phase 1 upgrade which is already happening will double that already overwhelming capability.

The phase 2 AESA upgrade will quadruple that capability. So while the LCA will be looking for a MKI at a 100-150Km distance due to antenna size limitations in a normal non-electronic environment, the MKI will be looking at LCA class fighters from a greater height and distance of 400 - 500Km and with a theoretical shoot to kill range of 100 - 300Km vs LCA's theoretical kill range of 50 Km.

In a dense electronic environment the MKI's radar capability won't be significantly diminished due to the higher ratings of the radar. On the other hand the LCA's radar capability will be diminished. Apart from that's its EW suite won't be able to keep up against MKI's ECM capability for two reasons. One the MKIs EW suite is simply far far more advanced than what is being planned for LCA. Second, the MKI simply delivers much more power and hence is more useful at longer distances. So all electronic advantages lie with MKI.

In terms of aircraft capability, the MKI has greater speed, greater altitude options, greater turn rates, roll rates , greater climb rates, overall greater maneuverability and overall greater combat sustainability and survivability.

Meaning, MKI can outturn, outrun and outclimb LCA on any day. At the same time it can sustain combat operations 4-5 times longer. A sustained dog fight time limit is 5 minutes for LCA, it is 25 minutes for MKI. The MKI has far more fuel to burn and burns it less slowly during cruise flight.

A regular MKI mission can go on for 3-4 hours while LCA needs to land back in 40 minutes on internal fuel. MKI currently does not carry any external fuel, but with external fuel, the LCA can manage a one hour 10 minute mission at most. If you compare fuel loads, LCA can fly a little over 1 hour with around 5 tonnes of fuel while MKI can stay in the air for 3.5 hours with 9.5 tonnes of fuel. It has a lot to do with drag and payload. MKI can carry a larger payload and still better the LCA any day.

Technically, there is no chance at all. On paper, a MKI can be beaten by the LCA class only if the pilot makes a heinous mistake.

The difference between Rafale and LCA isn't as overwhelming, but Rafale's A2G capability and EW suite is simply outstanding and incomparable to LCA's. In certain respects even MKI is currently deficient in some capabilities the Rafale brings in.

As for crash rate, nearly 200 MKIs or more are already operational with 4 crashes. 0 LCAs are operational with 0 crashes. Moot.

An LCA is 20 times more combat ready than the 200+ MiG-21s that are simply death warrants for our young pilots.

While it is disappointing that the Mig-21s are being pushed beyond their limits, however the comparison is moot. LCA doesn't exist while 200+ Mig-21s do. The LCA is years away from being combat ready.

If you're telling me that a 40+ year old MiG-21 can do something that a latest Tejas can't do, you're off your rockers, mate.

With age comes experience. How many pilots exist in India today with over 1000-2000 hours on Tejas? Tell me. You can guess what all our top and experience pilots are flying today. Some of our best pilots are on the Mig-21 and Jaguar squadrons. The LCA is just a baby. A new pilot, no matter how experienced will still be learning to fly the LCA. If you look at LCA's development schedule, IOC and FOC are just the start for IAF. The 40 LCAs will still undergo 5 years of test flying within the IAF. It will be 5 years after induction that ADA will be withdrawn from the project and IAF will be given free lease on the aircraft. Meaning until 2020 IAF will only be flying mostly test sorties on basic MK1 fighters while waiting for MK2 version. Flying the aircraft as a death machine will start years later.

As an example, JF-17 was given IOC in 2006, it has still not achieved FOC. It should receive FOC either this year end of early next year, whenever they receive the Block 2 that is. As of today they have three squadrons and all three are trainer and conversion squadrons. Only the earliest pilots and only a handful of jets are combat capable as of today. That's 6 years after induction. It won't be any different for LCA too. By the time LCA is ready for actual combat missions, Mig-21s will be long gone.

That is something we CANNOT afford. If we have to not end up being a Chinese colony, we cannot afford.

LCAs won't be of much use against China. Mostly MKIs and Rafales in that area, all the top air force stations in the area belong to MKIs and Rafales. It is doubtful whether LCAs will even be placed in the North-East. As of today, the permanent home base for the 2 MK1 squadrons will be Sulur in Tamil Nadu. Mk2s, we are inducting only 4 squadrons. So two squadrons each in two AFS in the western border supporting the 5 Jaguar squadrons, all of which are placed in the west like Punjab(2), Maharashtra(1) and UP(2). Mig-27s will be gone before MK1s are fully inducted and replaced with Rafales.

 

[sob]

Air Chief Marshal Naik described the LCA as a Mig 21++, closer to Gripen in its Mark II development.

Statements like these serve no purpose other than to just confuse the whole issue.

On one hand we are yet to see an operational LCA MK1 and on the other hand the Air Marshal is comparing the MK 2 to Gripen. On one hand you have an aircraft that is on the drawing board and on the other hand there is an aircraft which is in active duty.

Battles are not fought on paper.

Once LCA is inducted in numbers then the small niggles that are being handled by HAL/ADA will become sore points- and mind you they will come because it is a new aircraft. Once IAF starts operating and maintaining it that will be the true test and then we can comment on the strength and durability of the aircraft operating under real time conditions. And for this to happen IAF must induct one squadron immediately.

LCA is an important step for our country but to believe that it as a manna from heaven ------------- we would be living in a fools paradise.
@p2prada is not here to debunk everything that DRDO/ADA/LCA make, but his comments give us a glimpse that we still have some way to go- the journey has just begin, we have taken the first baby steps.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Tejas, Arjun and INSAS are just not baby steps anymore, they are core foundation of our self reliance objective ..

Ignoring this is death sentence for us in future conflict ..

 

[sob]

Tejas, Arjun and INSAS are just not baby steps anymore, they are core foundation of our self reliance objective ..

Ignoring this is death sentence for us in future conflict ..

Kunal, we have come a long way but we still are in a way integrating the best systems handpicked from around the world. We have not yet developed a domestic industrial infrastructure to support the serial production or new development.

Look at the Automotive companies, when they shift to a country they bring their vendors with them and apart from that they have a vendor development cell and in many cases they share the development costs. This is the kind of approach that is required. DRDO/OFB cannot operate in isolation and in some cases the hostility they show to the Pvt sector needs to be done away with.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I disagree here, We do operate INSAS in millions so does other firearms made in Country also all logistic vehicles in thousands are mainly Made in India so does their design, Let it be tanks from Arjun to T-series are made in India in thousands, And Helicopters such as Dhruv in hundreds & all are these in serial production ..

Its not DRDO / OFB hostility But from moles in MOD, DRDO product parts come from only PVT industry only let it be any product, DRDO product cannot be manufactured unless there are PVT cooperation ..

We have not yet developed a domestic industrial infrastructure to support the serial production or new development.This is the kind of approach that is required. DRDO/OFB cannot operate in isolation and in some cases the hostility they show to the Pvt sector needs to be done away with.

 

[ersakthivel]

For one, the MKI has a very powerful large aperture antenna. The first radar version gives the MKI a first look capability on LCA irrespective of the RCS difference. That's because the RCS difference isn't very significant.

The French claimed MKIs had superior situational awareness against Rafales and Mirage-2000s with the same radar during exercises. 100NMI according to the French.

The phase 1 upgrade which is already happening will double that already overwhelming capability.

The phase 2 AESA upgrade will quadruple that capability. So while the LCA will be looking for a MKI at a 100-150Km distance due to antenna size limitations in a normal non-electronic environment, the MKI will be looking at LCA class fighters from a greater height and distance of 400 - 500Km and with a theoretical shoot to kill range of 100 - 300Km vs LCA's theoretical kill range of 50 Km.

By the time Su-30 gets 300 Km BVRs . LCA too will get stealth external weapon bays like it is being done on Super hornet evolution and Silent Eagle program for f-15.

Then the RCs of a fully loaded tejas with six air to air BVrs will be just 0.3 sq meters, No ASEA radar will detect a 0.3 sq meter RCs target at any distance greater than 60 or 70 Kms . So tejas will still have the lower RCS advantage over any SU-30 type no matter how longer a BVR it carries and how powerful a radar is mounted on them,

it is just basic physics , it won't vanish any time soon, Not certainly till the ennd of Su-30s and Tejas service life span,


. For your Info even the PAKFA is supposed to have the 0.5 sq meter RCS with it's BVR missiles in it's internal bomb bay.

Tejas has a kill range of 50 Km only in your Phd thesis. Go to Wiki and check out what are the missiles that will be eligible for tejas and see their range, Leave Akash mk-1 and Mk-2. ADA chief himself has stated on the record that Tejas mk-2 will have the interface to fire meteor 120 Km range BVR just like Grippen.

In a dense electronic environment the MKI's radar capability won't be significantly diminished due to the higher ratings of the radar. On the other hand the LCA's radar capability will be diminished. Apart from that's its EW suite won't be able to keep up against MKI's ECM capability for two reasons. One the MKIs EW suite is simply far far more advanced than what is being planned for LCA. Second, the MKI simply delivers much more power and hence is more useful at longer distances. So all electronic advantages lie with MKI.

There will be three tejas mk-2 in air for every SU-30 in air if you compare the latest lifecycle costs, SO a single Su-30 jamming suite will have to suppress all three tejas radars simultaneously , never going to happen in real time, especially with latest ASEA radars.


Also much bigger emissions from SU-30 will give a trackable targeting co ords from much longer distances for long range radar homing missiles, SO higher power radar has advantages and disadvantages at the same time.

In terms of aircraft capability, the MKI has greater speed, greater altitude options, greater turn rates, roll rates , greater climb rates, overall greater maneuverability and overall greater combat sustainability and survivability.

Meaning, MKI can outturn, outrun and outclimb LCA on any day. At the same time it can sustain combat operations 4-5 times longer. A sustained dog fight time limit is 5 minutes for LCA, it is 25 minutes for MKI. The MKI has far more fuel to burn and burns it less slowly during cruise flight.

give the specs with source before tumbling out with stats, For your info LCA mk-2 will have an engine more powerful with no significant weight addition massively improving it's TWR vis a vis any fighter on the planet.
the heavier engines on Su-30 will have to support the massive dead empty weight of Su-30s which are built for long range, heavy fuel load, heavy weapon load requirements, with significant momentum penalties

not a rosy proposition when you face a high TWR low weight , fighter with very low wing loading along with lower fuel load and weapon load specs.

Especially in close combat for the same cost one SU-30 has to duel with 3 tejas fighters the odds are not as rosy as you suggest.

A regular MKI mission can go on for 3-4 hours while LCA needs to land back in 40 minutes on internal fuel. MKI currently does not carry any external fuel, but with external fuel, the LCA can manage a one hour 10 minute mission at most. If you compare fuel loads, LCA can fly a little over 1 hour with around 5 tonnes of fuel while MKI can stay in the air for 3.5 hours with 9.5 tonnes of fuel. It has a lot to do with drag and payload. MKI can carry a larger payload and still better the LCA any day.

LCA was built with very low wing loading , high TWR, close combat interception of heavy dead weight long range fighters like SU-30. So it is meaningless to compare the flight times of both tejas and Su-30.

In close combat tejas will carry out missions in 300 km around border area along with ops over domestic air space, so no time on station penalties, here,

Technically, there is no chance at all. On paper, a MKI can be beaten by the LCA class only if the pilot makes a heinous mistake.

Or people like you post such incorrect stuff to mislead gullible Su-30 pilots lulling them to complacency.
truth is opposite big fighters won't fare as mighty as their specs when confronted with more in number nimble state of the art low RCS , high TWR, low wing loading fighters like tejas in close combat ,

There is something called visual stealth that you have completely forgotten, as well

The difference between Rafale and LCA isn't as overwhelming, but Rafale's A2G capability and EW suite is simply outstanding and incomparable to LCA's. In certain respects even MKI is currently deficient in some capabilities the Rafale brings in.

Exactly that is why it is a waste of money to pour 20 billion dollars on the rafale. while for the same price we can get about 600 or 700 tejas mk-2 fighters, making the skies of India a sentinel .

EW suits evolve over time and will be added in MLUs nothing specific to airframe though.

As for crash rate, nearly 200 MKIs or more are already operational with 4 crashes. 0 LCAs are operational with 0 crashes. Moot.



While it is disappointing that the Mig-21s are being pushed beyond their limits, however the comparison is moot. LCA doesn't exist while 200+ Mig-21s do. The LCA is years away from being combat ready.



With age comes experience. How many pilots exist in India today with over 1000-2000 hours on Tejas? Tell me. You can guess what all our top and experience pilots are flying today. Some of our best pilots are on the Mig-21 and Jaguar squadrons. The LCA is just a baby. A new pilot, no matter how experienced will still be learning to fly the LCA. If you look at LCA's development schedule, IOC and FOC are just the start for IAF. The 40 LCAs will still undergo 5 years of test flying within the IAF. It will be 5 years after induction that ADA will be withdrawn from the project and IAF will be given free lease on the aircraft. Meaning until 2020 IAF will only be flying mostly test sorties on basic MK1 fighters while waiting for MK2 version. Flying the aircraft as a death machine will start years later.

As an example, JF-17 was given IOC in 2006, it has still not achieved FOC. It should receive FOC either this year end of early next year, whenever they receive the Block 2 that is. As of today they have three squadrons and all three are trainer and conversion squadrons. Only the earliest pilots and only a handful of jets are combat capable as of today. That's 6 years after induction. It won't be any different for LCA too. By the time LCA is ready for actual combat missions, Mig-21s will be long gone.



LCAs won't be of much use against China. Mostly MKIs and Rafales in that area, all the top air force stations in the area belong to MKIs and Rafales. It is doubtful whether LCAs will even be placed in the North-East. As of today, the permanent home base for the 2 MK1 squadrons will be Sulur in Tamil Nadu. Mk2s, we are inducting only 4 squadrons. So two squadrons each in two AFS in the western border supporting the 5 Jaguar squadrons, all of which are placed in the west like Punjab(2), Maharashtra(1) and UP(2). Mig-27s will be gone before MK1s are fully inducted and replaced with Rafales.

1.A clean config RCS of 0.3 (not really known , but lets take the statement that it will have a third of Mirage -2000 RCS at face value),

2. Six air to air missiles with 0.5 (as said by Decklander)X 6 = 3 sq meters will give an RCS of 3.5 meter max to LCA mk-1 in lightly loaded quick response air to air interception role .

If you do the same calculation for Su-30 then it's clean config RCS of 5 sq meters + 3 sq meters(same 6 X 0.5 sq meter load out) will give a cumulative RCS of minimum 8 sq meters for SU-30.

So even if SU-30 has 30 percent more radome dia giving it a more powerful radar it will present 2.5 times more RCS to the 30 percent smaller dia radar of the LCA Tejas, So in practical terms the big radome dia of Su-30 will hold no significant advantage over much smaller RCS of tejas.


So tracking by both the radars may happen simultaneously in real time with no significant advantage for either one of them,

But what happens after tracking is very interesting,

Say a squadron of 20 tejas fighters fire all their 0.5 sq meter BVRs on a squadron of 20 SU-30, and both start evading maneuvers ,

What happens after that?

The RCS for tejas will reduce ten fold to just 0.3 sq meter , but for SU-30 it will reduce by just 40 percent to 5 sq meters,

So in theory 20 tejas fighters will vanish from the big powerful radar of Su-30 because no su-30 radar can pick up a sub 0.5 meter Tejas target from any distance les than say 50 Km. So how will the Su-30 give mid course guidance to it's BVRs to home in on Tejas ?

The 120 KM range BVrs have their own active seekers , but they can detect tejas only from a closer distance of say 18 Km.

Simply there is no way Su-30 can guide it's 120 Km or 240 Km BVR on tejas in this circumstances.

But still all the 20 tejas will see the big 5 sq meter clean config SU-30 on their radar screen as big as foot ball. So with their discreet ASEA radars(in MK-2 , and will definitely come in as MLU in MK-1 as well) they will continue to guide them on the much bigger RCS SU-30.

So who told you that SU-30 radar will look first, fire first, fill first at all times when it comes to air to air BVr combat?

 

[JBH22]

Agreed that there might be some basis rule to be followed for inducting a plane,but IAF could have inducted the Tejas and corrections would have been made with pilots feedback in subsequent batches.

Soviets used similar approach for eg the SU-24 when it was inducted it did have its share of teething problems which were rectified in subsequent batches with the design bureau. Similar approach would have been helpful.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its simple, there is greed and corruption involve in mega scale ..

There is little or no concern for the work and responsibility but their own pockets ..

Agreed that there might be some basis rule to be followed for inducting a plane,but IAF could have inducted the Tejas and corrections would have been made with pilots feedback in subsequent batches.

Soviets used similar approach for eg the SU-24 when it was inducted it did have its share of teething problems which were rectified in subsequent batches with the design bureau. Similar approach would have been helpful.

 

[ersakthivel]

With age comes experience. How many pilots exist in India today with over 1000-2000 hours on Tejas? Tell me. You can guess what all our top and experience pilots are flying today. Some of our best pilots are on the Mig-21 and Jaguar squadrons. The LCA is just a baby. A new pilot, no matter how experienced will still be learning to fly the LCA. If you look at LCA's development schedule, IOC and FOC are just the start for IAF. The 40 LCAs will still undergo 5 years of test flying within the IAF. It will be 5 years after induction that ADA will be withdrawn from the project and IAF will be given free lease on the aircraft. Meaning until 2020 IAF will only be flying mostly test sorties on basic MK1 fighters while waiting for MK2 version. Flying the aircraft as a death machine will start years later.

These are technical BS if a war comes in 2020 0r 2018 , Do you think IAF doesnot know how to use them? with all the skilled pilots with decades of experience over many fighters? stupid thought.

What you are forgetting is LCA improves on the Mirage performance, So IAF is not a stranger to the tactics to be employed on low wing loading deltas. Ans all the test pilots who have flown the LCA for the past decade are from IAF. SO comprehensive material from them on what tactics would have to be followed on Tejas won't take all of five years , if all heads come together, and there is something called simulator you have totally forgotten.

As an example, JF-17 was given IOC in 2006, it has still not achieved FOC. It should receive FOC either this year end of early next year, whenever they receive the Block 2 that is. As of today they have three squadrons and all three are trainer and conversion squadrons. Only the earliest pilots and only a handful of jets are combat capable as of today. That's 6 years after induction. It won't be any different for LCA too. By the time LCA is ready for actual combat missions, Mig-21s will be long gone.

Don't compare a junk program to a flight test program that lasted over 13 years with 2300 incident free comprehensive test flights spread over more than 10 platforms .

No one knows which avionics is going to be added in JF-17 to make it modern, But people know which radar LCA has and what missiles will be there with no doubts.

Considering the "state of the art engine and chinese avionics " on board JF-17, it will be obvious JF-17 will never be combat ready for an air war with tejas, So why drag this here?

So if fund starved PAF inducted junks with no FOC , it can't be taken as a yard stick for Tejas FOC with any stretch of imagination!!!!!!!!!

LCAs won't be of much use against China. Mostly MKIs and Rafales in that area, all the top air force stations in the area belong to MKIs and Rafales. It is doubtful whether LCAs will even be placed in the North-East.

LCAs are tailor made with low wing loading for the high altitude himalayan areas, It can do pretty well against J-10s and chinese flankers on any day. Don't compare piece by piece. Compare cost Vs cost . For the same lifecyle cost of one Su-30 you can induct 3 tejas fighters if you take today's exchange rate,

then compare why 600 tejas fighters won't do well against 200 chines flankers , with all the points raised in the previous post. less said the better about the J-10s , due to lack of engine power over high himalayas , it is already renamed as bomber from it's earlier fighter designation according to some reports on the net.


If LCA is not going to be placed in North east, why did under go trials in LEH? photo ops, perhaps?

As of today, the permanent home base for the 2 MK1 squadrons will be Sulur in Tamil Nadu. Mk2s, we are inducting only 4 squadrons. So two squadrons each in two AFS in the western border supporting the 5 Jaguar squadrons, all of which are placed in the west like Punjab(2), Maharashtra(1) and UP(2). Mig-27s will be gone before MK1s are fully inducted and replaced with Rafales.

Don't make out as if Punjab and maharastra are some desolate sub saharan desert areas. When placed there IAF Tejas squadrons wil have to face the upgraded PAF F-16 , And if IAf considers them to be good enough for the job, then it goes without saying it can shoot down any PLAF fighter over Himalayan skies .

 

[ersakthivel]

Statements like these serve no purpose other than to just confuse the whole issue.

On one hand we are yet to see an operational LCA MK1 and on the other hand the Air Marshal is comparing the MK 2 to Gripen. On one hand you have an aircraft that is on the drawing board and on the other hand there is an aircraft which is in active duty.

Battles are not fought on paper.

Once LCA is inducted in numbers then the small niggles that are being handled by HAL/ADA will become sore points- and mind you they will come because it is a new aircraft. Once IAF starts operating and maintaining it that will be the true test and then we can comment on the strength and durability of the aircraft operating under real time conditions. And for this to happen IAF must induct one squadron immediately.

LCA is an important step for our country but to believe that it as a manna from heaven ------------- we would be living in a fools paradise.
@p2prada is not here to debunk everything that DRDO/ADA/LCA make, but his comments give us a glimpse that we still have some way to go- the journey has just begin, we have taken the first baby steps.

@p2prada has posted in ADA tejas -IV thread that a couple of upgraded Mig-21 Bisons will finish off a squadron of tejas fighters. Do you agree?

And as per his comments tejas is inferior to every fighter ever flown in the world. Is that right?

He also wrote wing loading was related to passenger aircraft and has nothing to do with fighters,

And Seeker -Shooter combo exists only for a couple of F-22s and it can not exist for combo of Su-30 MKI and Tejas , steadfastly for many pages in ADA tejas -IV thread.

So what could be the motive of @p2prada to post such spurious stuff repeatedly again and again if not to debunk everything that DRDO/ADA/LCA make?

If tejas is on the drawing board, same applies to grippen NG as well, it is just one developmental aircraft looking for funding, then why did IAF allow it in MMRCA competition with in service fighters like FA-18 hornet, F-16 , TYPHOON and RAFALE?

In the same way even before being operationalized fighters like TYPHOON , FGFA, F-35 all had solid orders,

if we apply the same yardstick you applied for MK-2 , did the airforce chiefs all over the world gave huge orders to these fighters when they were mere paper planes,

For your info even Su-30 MKI was a paper plane before IAF entered in, Do you think the IAf chiefs of those times were fools to expect that paper plane to perform better against variety of threats to be thrown at by PAf and PLAf for the next thirty years?

The conviction and credibility of IAF chief in making the comment that LCA mk-2 is as good as grippen NG is same those IAf chiefs who invested in the painstaking SU-30 MKI program.

Those sore points that are supposed to be there for tejas is common to all fighter programs , even Su-30 MKI is not immune from it.

 

[Tshering22]

Technically, there is no chance at all. On paper, a MKI can be beaten by the LCA class only if the pilot makes a heinous mistake.

As for crash rate, nearly 200 MKIs or more are already operational with 4 crashes. 0 LCAs are operational with 0 crashes. Moot.



While it is disappointing that the Mig-21s are being pushed beyond their limits, however the comparison is moot. LCA doesn't exist while 200+ Mig-21s do. The LCA is years away from being combat ready.

And the reason you believe would be?

My friend, the aircraft is purposely stuck in limbo. If it cannot crash in 2200 hours of flight testing, weapons testing, characteristic testing, aerodynamic testing etc, then it is good to go. The netas are using the jet as a political tool rather than something concerning national defense.

As an example, JF-17 was given IOC in 2006, it has still not achieved FOC. It should receive FOC either this year end of early next year, whenever they receive the Block 2 that is. As of today they have three squadrons and all three are trainer and conversion squadrons. Only the earliest pilots and only a handful of jets are combat capable as of today. That's 6 years after induction. It won't be any different for LCA too. By the time LCA is ready for actual combat missions, Mig-21s will be long gone.

Can you tell me what is it that Tejas can't do that a 50 year old Mig-21 IN SERVICE, can do? That is all I want to know from IAF.

And this is from the perspective of human life and the lives of valuable pilots that fly the vintage jet which is long supposed to have been scrapped.

Nothing. A MiG-21's role is point defense and basic interception; even Tejas can do that.

So why is IAF not letting pilots be trained for Tejas and starts inducting them while letting the variants evolve?

Why is IAF not protesting this decision and putting the lives of pilots at risk?

Today 1 pilot has gone to file a case against flying the MiG-21. Tomorrow a hundred will.

This is not some stupid sarkari factory where we can afford to have strikes. Not to mention, that their concerns are highly valid and relevant. A fighter pilot joins the air force not to die in dead vintage scraps of metal but to fight and win for his country and national pride.

Please understand the context in which I am talking.

MiG-21s should have been phased out 15 years ago. It is a shame that MOD is making them fly even today while keeping a spanking new jet like Tejas in limbo for cheap under-the-table commission on imports. Who bears the cost? Anthony? Rahul? Sonia? MMS? Chidambaram?

None of their sons are flying the Widow makers, mate. It is the families of brave young men that suffer and die daily as their sons, husbands, brothers etc die charring to their deaths in a crashing MiG-21.

I refuse to believe that Tejas can't do the role that MiG-21 is doing today and if you believe that it can't then you need to rethink on every parameter of the old MIG versus the brand new Tejas even in Mk1 configuration.

MKI is not the answer to everything,

There is a reason why we don't have a 800+ fighter force of all-MKI fleet only.

 

[ersakthivel]

270 Su-30 MKI are not some manna from heaven that can forever guard the indian skies. 400 obsolete Mig-21, 23, 27 fighters are just retired or about to be retired in IAF, Inducting 400 tejas (40 MK-1s and 360 MK-2s ) is the only way to improve the safety of the Indian skies without bleeding the already spluttering forex reserves,

Even JAGs won't last forever, A single tejas can do the job of both the JAG and MIG-21 with ten times more effectiveness. We need absolute numbers against the combined PAF-PLAF fleet,

Just 270 MKIs and 140 FGFAs can not do against this massive number of PAF and PLAF fighters, most of them are at the level or below the level of tejas at the present time.

China is inducting hundreds of J-10s and various Sukhoi clones now and will continue to do so for the next decade, Just because J-20 and J-31 flew doesnot mean their airforce will become all 5th gen by the next decade. It will take 3 or 4 decades for the complete transformation. Til that time tejas will be relevant in IAF in high hundreds.

 

[sob]

@p2prada has posted in ADA tejas -IV thread that a couple of upgraded Mig-21 Bisons will finish off a squadron of tejas fighters. Do you agree?

And as per his comments tejas is inferior to every fighter ever flown in the world. Is that right?

He also wrote wing loading was related to passenger aircraft and has nothing to do with fighters,

And Seeker -Shooter combo exists only for a couple of F-22s and it can not exist for combo of Su-30 MKI and Tejas , steadfastly for many pages in ADA tejas -IV thread.

So what could be the motive of @p2prada to post such spurious stuff repeatedly again and again if not to debunk everything that DRDO/ADA/LCA make?

If tejas is on the drawing board, same applies to grippen NG as well, it is just one developmental aircraft looking for funding, then why did IAF allow it in MMRCA competition with in service fighters like FA-18 hornet, F-16 , TYPHOON and RAFALE?

In the same way even before being operationalized fighters like TYPHOON , FGFA, F-35 all had solid orders,

if we apply the same yardstick you applied for MK-2 , did the airforce chiefs all over the world gave huge orders to these fighters when they were mere paper planes,

For your info even Su-30 MKI was a paper plane before IAF entered in, Do you think the IAf chiefs of those times were fools to expect that paper plane to perform better against variety of threats to be thrown at by PAf and PLAf for the next thirty years?

The conviction and credibility of IAF chief in making the comment that LCA mk-2 is as good as grippen NG is same those IAf chiefs who invested in the painstaking SU-30 MKI program.

Those sore points that are supposed to be there for tejas is common to all fighter programs , even Su-30 MKI is not immune from it.

Let @p2prada reply to the first half of your point. It will be better for him to comment.

Gripen NG has been in service since 1997 and till date has produced almost 240 aircraft and is in the service of 2-3 nations. So please do not compare LCA with it.

How many different world class fighters have Sukhoi Bureau, Mikhoyan, or LM or Boeing have made in the last 4-5 decades. When they offer a new aircraft then the reliability and performance of those 4 decades backs their offering. The same is not the case with HAL. Maybe in 2020 or in 2025 they may have the same credibility or capacity.

I once again repeat that you cannot say that a aircraft on the design stage is better than a aircraft which is being used in active service. At best you can say that based on the specs our offering will be better. Actual performance and specs on the drawing sheets are two different things and in my limited experience the divergence can be pretty steep.

If I want to buy a Formula 1 car I would rather go to a Ferrari or a Mercedes rather than go to Honda or Suzuki or even Volvo.

 

[sob]

270 Su-30 MKI are not some manna from heaven that can forever guard the indian skies. 400 obsolete Mig-21, 23, 27 fighters are just retired or about to be retired in IAF, Inducting 400 tejas (40 MK-1s and 360 MK-2s ) is the only way to improve the safety of the Indian skies without bleeding the already spluttering forex reserves,

Even JAGs won't last forever, A single tejas can do the job of both the JAG and MIG-21 with ten times more effectiveness. We need absolute numbers against the combined PAF-PLAF fleet,

Just 270 MKIs and 140 FGFAs can not do against this massive number of PAF and PLAF fighters, most of them are at the level or below the level of tejas at the present time.

China is inducting hundreds of J-10s and various Sukhoi clones now and will continue to do so for the next decade, Just because J-20 and J-31 flew doesnot mean their airforce will become all 5th gen by the next decade. It will take 3 or 4 decades for the complete transformation. Til that time tejas will be relevant in IAF in high hundreds.

Is there any open source document that lists the time period in which HAL can deliver 400 MK1 aircraft to IAF.
that is why we have to keep the old and creaking Migs and spent money on the upgrades of Jaguar and M 2K