Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Why don't we go for 112 super sukoi for this mmca role, fast production gud logistics almost all spare parts available in house only engine and new avoincs have get from abroad

There is technology transfer agreement. India already makes Su30. So, additional Rafale will be better. The rafale in MMRCA will be having capabilities to use Kaveri engine instead of M88 engine. So, overall it is an advantage in a long term viewpoint

 

[rone]

There is technology transfer agreement. India already makes Su30. So, additional Rafale will be better. The rafale in MMRCA will be having capabilities to use Kaveri engine instead of M88 engine. So, overall it is an advantage in a long term viewpoint

in 36 Rafel agreement we have offset for deal they said in 18 months Kaveri will be flight tested till now no news ,is it really dead becoz almost all drdo project like staying in ventilater.. projects like nirbhay cm, helina, LUh ,etc.. if we go for list it long so how we going to revive Kaveri for additional Rafel ?

 

[Indx TechStyle]

projects like nirbhay cm, helina, LUh ,etc.. if we go for list it long so how we going to revive Kaveri for additional Rafel ?

It's an utterly ignorant judgemental approach primarily made up in juvenile or media to respond and is not a valid argument at least but a denial or rejection.

Those projects on ventilator? Do you even know about their status or you don't even bother to update yourself? And Kaveri, what do you know about problem with Kaveri? Why we involved French here? Plus position in such technologies with respect to other countries?
For delayed projects, it might won't even exceed a post, for successful ones, one thread won't be enough.

Elaborations can be found by actually studying about projects from the forum because we explaining you will seem kinda awkward.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

in 36 Rafel agreement we have offset for deal they said in 18 months Kaveri will be flight tested till now no news ,is it really dead becoz almost all drdo project like staying in ventilater.. projects like nirbhay cm, helina, LUh ,etc.. if we go for list it long so how we going to revive Kaveri for additional Rafel ?

@Indx TechStyle wrotw fantastically. I would add some more points-
Kaveri has been tested and cleared by Snecma for flight trials in 2018. Helina/Nag has already been test fired. LUH prototype has been out running and even performed openly in some airshow recently.

From where do you get such information about failures? Who told you that Kaveri will be made by French help? It is merely a misunderstanding where France said that Rafale can be made to run on Kaveri engine which may be one the 'offset' for MMRCA2 where the Rafale will be indigenously manufactured with Kaveri engines.

You are jumping to conclusions based on ignorance

 

[rone]

It's an utterly ignorant judgemental approach primarily made up in juvenile or media to respond and is not a valid argument at least but a denial or rejection.

Those projects on ventilator? Do you even know about their status or you don't even bother to update yourself? And Kaveri, what do you know about problem with Kaveri? Why we involved French here? Plus position in such technologies with respect to other countries?
For delayed projects, it might won't even exceed a post, for successful ones, one thread won't be enough.

Elaborations can be found by actually studying about projects from the forum because we explaining you will seem kinda awkward.

Sorry correct me if I wrong "
The French have also agreed in principle to collaborate on the Kaveri engine which lacks the real power thrust needed to fly the Tejas.

An upgraded Kaveri engine with 90 kN thrust compared to the existing 72 kN can be developed with French cooperation which can eventually be used for Tejas which currently uses an American engine.

"The negotiations on offsets were carried out last year with DRDO and some other agencies. Once the contract for the Rafales is signed" and other projects I mentioned they already in over run in their time frame

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Sorry correct me if I wrong "
The French have also agreed in principle to collaborate on the Kaveri engine which lacks the real power thrust needed to fly the Tejas.

An upgraded Kaveri engine with 90 kN thrust compared to the existing 72 kN can be developed with French cooperation which can eventually be used for Tejas which currently uses an American engine.

"The negotiations on offsets were carried out last year with DRDO and some other agencies. Once the contract for the Rafales is signed" and other projects I mentioned they already in over run in their time frame

I didn't ask for deal, I asked for stuff inside deal. What was the problem in engine which didn't let us make an engine with enough thrust?

Kaveri is a three spool VCE based design with high pressure drop in core. So, to compensate that by temperature, increased air intake is needed which increases temperature at blades causing problems like accelerated problems like hot creep and accelerated corrosion. We would need a better superalloy or a bit redesigning of breathing part where Snecma and Safran could support us. After experience gained from corporation with them, we can go for our series.

Single Crystal superalloys are critical here and aren't possessed by so many countries. India's problem is justified. Because all of our hung up or delayed projects are like where no other country has dared to start from scratch.

 

[no smoking]

Single Crystal superalloys are critical here and aren't possessed by so many countries. India's problem is justified. Because all of our hung up or delayed projects are like where no other country has dared to start from scratch.

On the contrast, India is the only country didn't start from scratch. unlike other countries who started from designing early stage turbofan engine which is equal to American's 70s engine - simpler, heavier and less electronic assistance, India wished to build an engine of 90s level: SCB, higher intake temperature, FADEC control, etc.
Instead of improving the technologies step by step, Indian scientists believe they can sort everything out in one program. It turns out to be a disaster.

 

[WolfPack86]

EXCLUSIVE: IAF Arming Su-30s With ASRAAMs, May Standardise Missile Across Fleet

 

[Chinmoy]

On the contrast, India is the only country didn't start from scratch. unlike other countries who started from designing early stage turbofan engine which is equal to American's 70s engine - simpler, heavier and less electronic assistance, India wished to build an engine of 90s level: SCB, higher intake temperature, FADEC control, etc.
Instead of improving the technologies step by step, Indian scientists believe they can sort everything out in one program. It turns out to be a disaster.

Heard of GTX 37-14U and GTX 37-14UB ?

 

[darshan978]

On the contrast, India is the only country didn't start from scratch. unlike other countries who started from designing early stage turbofan engine which is equal to American's 70s engine - simpler, heavier and less electronic assistance, India wished to build an engine of 90s level: SCB, higher intake temperature, FADEC control, etc.
Instead of improving the technologies step by step, Indian scientists believe they can sort everything out in one program. It turns out to be a disaster.

read this shrimaan'''''''''''''''''''''''

 

[vampyrbladez]

India Seeks License Extension from Russia to Manufacture More Su-30MKI Locally

India’s decision to manufacture additional Su-30MKI for the air force has been taken against the backdrop of a delay in the formal tendering process to acquire 110 fighter jets and upgrades of other existing jets, according to a highly placed official in India’s Defence Ministry.

New Delhi (Sputnik): The Indian government has formally requested Russia to extend the production licence of Su-30 MKI that was granted to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), as India wants to produce more of the fighter jets in its local facility.

"The government put forth the request to Russia to extend the production licence for more Su-30MKI fighter jet earlier this month", a government official told Sputnik on the condition of anonymity.

The official added that at least 48 more Su-MKI fighter jets will be manufactured at the Nashik facility of HAL, which is currently producing the last batch of 23 Su-30 fighters, of the 222 it was mandated to build under the initial license.

Last year, HAL offered to produce 40 more Sukhoi-30MKI fighters for the IAF at a cost of around $64 million per unit, which is lower than that of the multi-role fighter Rafale.

The IAF is currently facing a shortageof at least 11 squadrons (18-20 jets in a squadron) of fighter jets due to ageing MiGs and delays in fresh procurement. The IAF desires the strength of some 42 combat squadrons by the year 2027-32 in order to meet the contingencies of a two-front war with China and Pakistan.

The delivery of the first Rafale fighters of the 36 contracted jets from France will begin from September this year.

"The IAF is still in the process of inducting the Su-30MKI and will start inducting Rafales later this year. The shortfall in IAF strength has occurred due to slack spanning many years in past procurement. A six-month delay that gives a possible new government time to take stock of available alternative options, such as government to government purchase or continued production of Su-30MKI, makes sense", Vijainder K. Thakur, a former squadron leader of the Indian Air Force, observed.

The Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI — including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc. — must be sourced from Russia. Also, 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws, and rivets must be sourced from Russia.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201901311071996905-india-seeks-license-ext-su30mki/

 

[Bleh]

India Seeks License Extension from Russia to Manufacture More Su-30MKI Locally

India’s decision to manufacture additional Su-30MKI for the air force has been taken against the backdrop of a delay in the formal tendering process to acquire 110 fighter jets and upgrades of other existing jets, according to a highly placed official in India’s Defence Ministry.

New Delhi (Sputnik): The Indian government has formally requested Russia to extend the production licence of Su-30 MKI that was granted to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), as India wants to produce more of the fighter jets in its local facility.

"The government put forth the request to Russia to extend the production licence for more Su-30MKI fighter jet earlier this month", a government official told Sputnik on the condition of anonymity.

The official added that at least 48 more Su-MKI fighter jets will be manufactured at the Nashik facility of HAL, which is currently producing the last batch of 23 Su-30 fighters, of the 222 it was mandated to build under the initial license.

Last year, HAL offered to produce 40 more Sukhoi-30MKI fighters for the IAF at a cost of around $64 million per unit, which is lower than that of the multi-role fighter Rafale.

The IAF is currently facing a shortageof at least 11 squadrons (18-20 jets in a squadron) of fighter jets due to ageing MiGs and delays in fresh procurement. The IAF desires the strength of some 42 combat squadrons by the year 2027-32 in order to meet the contingencies of a two-front war with China and Pakistan.

The delivery of the first Rafale fighters of the 36 contracted jets from France will begin from September this year.

"The IAF is still in the process of inducting the Su-30MKI and will start inducting Rafales later this year. The shortfall in IAF strength has occurred due to slack spanning many years in past procurement. A six-month delay that gives a possible new government time to take stock of available alternative options, such as government to government purchase or continued production of Su-30MKI, makes sense", Vijainder K. Thakur, a former squadron leader of the Indian Air Force, observed.

The Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI — including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc. — must be sourced from Russia. Also, 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws, and rivets must be sourced from Russia.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201901311071996905-india-seeks-license-ext-su30mki/

Same 20-years-old one or updated Super Sukhoi standard? Didn't mention the most important issue...

 

[vampyrbladez]

Same 20-years-old one or updated Super Sukhoi standard? Didn't mention the most important issue...

Upgrades will start with oldest in Su 30mki fleet and move towards new ones. This one is a big '?'.

 

[Bleh]

Upgrades will start with oldest in Su 30mki fleet and move towards new ones. This one is a big '?'.

That's mid-life upgrade. But it'll be a crime if the new planes are essentially the same vintage shit & not latest Su-30SM/Super Sukhoi standard.

Already we made no effort to incorporate anything new in the follow-up of batches of HAL made Su-30. They were allowed to alter its airframe to let it carry Brahmos, but not to have it made it of Indian composites like Tejas, making it lighter & stealthier!

 

[vampyrbladez]

That's mid-life upgrade. But it'll be a crime if the new planes are essentially the same vintage shit & not latest Su-30SM/Super Sukhoi standard.

Already we made no effort to incorporate anything new in the follow-up of batches of HAL made Su-30. They were allowed to alter its airframe to let it carry Brahmos, but not to have it made it of Indian composites like Tejas, making it lighter & stealthier!

The upgrade is based on this :

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2018/08/super-su-30mki-has-taken-shape.html

Initial planes will be upgraded from older batch. If it is cost effective then new ones will also be newer version although both will join fleet at the same time.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

They were allowed to alter its airframe to let it carry Brahmos, but not to have it made it of Indian composites like Tejas, making it lighter & stealthier!

A plane can't be made to have different material. There is delicate balance of weight and centre of gravity in the airframe and internal LRU of the plane. Changing the material will severely alter this balance and hence the plane will be unfeasible to fly. So, one either has to design from scratch with composites or continue with whatever is available

 

[Bleh]

A plane can't be made to have different material. There is delicate balance of weight and centre of gravity in the airframe and internal LRU of the plane. Changing the material will severely alter this balance and hence the plane will be unfeasible to fly. So, one either has to design from scratch with composites or continue with whatever is available

I don't think that completely correct!

Both Su-30SM & J-XX apprently use high percentage of carbon composites. They are not drastically redesigned. Strengthening the airframe to carry a Cruise-missile should need more changes, & we did that (before that i assumed that we aren't allowed to do modifications).

 

[armyofhind]

A plane can't be made to have different material. There is delicate balance of weight and centre of gravity in the airframe and internal LRU of the plane. Changing the material will severely alter this balance and hence the plane will be unfeasible to fly. So, one either has to design from scratch with composites or continue with whatever is available

not necessarily. the fly by wire system variables can be altered to provide different continuous correction input to keep the aircraft flying within the stability parameters even after altering the airframe materials.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I don't think that completely correct!

Both Su-30SM & J-XX apprently use high percentage of carbon composites. They are not drastically redesigned. Strengthening the airframe to carry a Cruise-missile should need more changes, & we did that (before that i assumed that we aren't allowed to do modifications).

Su30 was built to be a heavy fighter. So carrying heavy missile/bomb was inherent to its ability. It was already meant to carry Klub class missile which weighs 1.5-2 tons. So, modifications to carry Brahmos was less significant than what you claim.

not necessarily. the fly by wire system variables can be altered to provide different continuous correction input to keep the aircraft flying within the stability parameters even after altering the airframe materials.

FBW can be tweaked only to some extent. It is not that any plane can be made to fly by FBW. FBW only optimisies the aerodynamic forces but the design and weight balance is also crucial.

It is true that planes are made to fly with weight variation when some pylons are emptied while others are carrying payloads and situation like wings getting hit by enemy fire. But the optimal aerodynamics of the plane will be hit badly. The plane will be able to fly but not do maneuvering like it was in its its right form.

So, replacing some parts with composites is difficult. India did get Canards fitted on Su30 and still the plane functioned without having to be redesigned from scratch but even that required good amount of testing and calibration before it was fit to fly.

Also, in case of composites, thinga like internal LRU, fuel tank etc will also have to be modified. This is unlike addition of canards which was an additional control surface. Arbitrarily adding composites to easy areas will serve no purpose. But changing internal structural aspects can be really time consuming. It is not worth it.

 

[Armand2REP]

Upgrades will start with oldest in Su 30mki fleet and move towards new ones. This one is a big '?'.

If they are going to be making a new production run it doesn't make sense to produce the obsolete version.