Russia is more dangerous for India...

[Param]

I can't help but think Russia is hoodwinking India. I find it ironic that Indians here ( some) get fixated about some low level weapons being given to Pak by the US - but on the other hand Russia gives the bigger of the two threats ( china) great military hardware and now they are even co developing long range bombers with China- which is a direct threat for India's look east policy...IMO.

we all know how close China - Russia realtionship is and that it has always supplied military hardware to China for assets that can/will be used against India.

And I was wondering who is that Indian who opened such a thread. Our very own Desi Amerian!

US has helped China with the greatest weapon of all, a mighty economy. Capitalist brothers who are opportunistic enough not to let their divergent political ideologies come in the way of economic interests.

The Americans would'nt trade with communist Cuba but have no qualms being China's biggest trade partner.

 

[Galaxy]

I can't help but think Russia is hoodwinking India.

No, It's not. Kindly do give proper evidence to justify your statement. First you need to prove your Title before talking such things.

I find it ironic that Indians here ( some) get fixated about some low level weapons being given to Pak by the US

Few of the Military weapons/equipments/Jets of Pakistan defence force given by U.S.A.

1) F-16 (52 Block)
2) Bell AH-1F/1S/1F/S Cobra - Attack helicopter
3) C-130 for quick transport of Army personnel, Tank, artillery, etc. (We bought C-130 Hercules SUPER)
4) M 109/110 / 114 / 115 / 198 howitzer (Thousand quantity) - Self-propelled artillery (We are planning to Buy same)

There are few more things. All above are Offensive and not for defensive purpose. It will be used only against India. Hence, U.S.A. clearly helped Pakistan against India that also all the time. Today, they are selling few things just for the sake of Money like any other nation.

- but on the other hand Russia gives the bigger of the two threats ( china) great military hardware and now they are even co developing long range bombers with China- which is a direct threat for India's look east policy...IMO.

Incorrect, Russia didn't gave anything bigger to China.

Russia provided to India

1) Sukhoi 30 MKI (Best fighter jets in South/Central Asia. Better then SuMKK, Su 27, Rip one J-11, Even J-10, FC-20)
2) Russia sold S-300 to China, But Russia also gave S-300 to us long back. Indeed, Even Vietnam also bought the same. Russia denied S-400 to China but ready to give to us, But we denied because our AAD/PDV will be better than S-400 if done as projected.
3) We have Brahmos (fastest cruise missile, Few may be equivalent to Brahmos, But China don't have something better in 300 Range.
4) Aircraft Carrier - Vikramaditya - Which will be used against China only.
5) PAK-FA / FGFA (Russia gave this offer to only India and not China)

There are many many more things, Like help in ATV and Agni-5, Semi Stealth Talwar class Frigates, T-90, Akula Nuke Submarines, May be Amur Submarines in future too and many many more.... ALL OFFENSIVE and Against China
What China got ? Few Engines for J-10/11, Few S-300 and that's all. Long Range bomber is yet not confirmed. Even if happens, PAK-DA will take at least 15 years to develop. First of all, We don't need PAK-DA as our threat is from neighbours and not US or Europe. What PAK-DA can do what PAK - FA can't do ? Long range bomber is used for very long distance and not for neighbours. China-Russia if planning, Then it's for US and not for India. Bomber is not useful for short range as MRCA, Air-Superior Jets can do same work. Whatever Russia sold to India, it will be used against China on other side China has hardly strong military weapons from Russia except S-300, Su MKK, etc which will be inferior to our AAD/PDV and MKI.

we all know how close China - Russia realtionship is and that it has always supplied military hardware to China for assets that can/will be used against India.

China-Russia don't have any close relationship. They have neutral relation like Japan-South Korea. And Russia didn't supplied any strong military hardware to China which i already explained. I can give 10's of Link where Russia-China bad relation will hit this thread.

Russia is still our one of the best friends whereas USA is still friend of Pakistan and neutral to us. It's better to trust Israel, UK, France but U.S. They are back-stabber. Remember 1971 ? :thumb:

 

[bhramos]

No, It's not. Kindly do give proper evidence to justify your statement. First you need to prove your Title before talking such things.



Few of the Military weapons/equipments/Jets of Pakistan defence force given by U.S.A.

1) F-16 (52 Block)
2) Bell AH-1F/1S/1F/S Cobra - Attack helicopter
3) C-130 for quick transport of Army personnel, Tank, artillery, etc. (We bought C-130 Hercules SUPER)
4) M 109/110 / 114 / 115 / 198 howitzer (Thousand quantity) - Self-propelled artillery (We are planning to Buy same)

There are few more things. All above are Offensive and not for defensive purpose. It will be used only against India. Hence, U.S.A. clearly helped Pakistan against India that also all the time. Today, they are selling few things just for the sake of Money like any other nation.




Incorrect, Russia didn't gave anything bigger to China.

Russia provided to India

1) Sukhoi 30 MKI (Best fighter jets in South/Central Asia. Better then SuMKK, Su 27, Rip one J-11, Even J-10, FC-20)
2) Russia sold S-300 to China, But Russia also gave S-300 to us long back. Indeed, Even Vietnam also bought the same. Russia denied S-400 to China but ready to give to us, But we denied because our AAD/PDV will be better than S-400 if done as projected.
3) We have Brahmos (fastest cruise missile, Few may be equivalent to Brahmos, But China don't have something better in 300 Range.
4) Aircraft Carrier - Vikramaditya - Which will be used against China only.
5) PAK-FA / FGFA (Russia gave this offer to only India and not China)

There are many many more things, Like help in ATV and Agni-5, Semi Stealth Talwar class Frigates, T-90, Akula Nuke Submarines, May be Amur Submarines in future too and many many more.... ALL OFFENSIVE and Against China
What China got ? Few Engines for J-10/11, Few S-300 and that's all. Long Range bomber is yet not confirmed. Even if happens, PAK-DA will take at least 15 years to develop. First of all, We don't need PAK-DA as our threat is from neighbours and not US or Europe. What PAK-DA can do what PAK - FA can't do ? Long range bomber is used for very long distance and not for neighbours. China-Russia if planning, Then it's for US and not for India. Bomber is not useful for short range as MRCA, Air-Superior Jets can do same work. Whatever Russia sold to India, it will be used against China on other side China has hardly strong military weapons from Russia except S-300, Su MKK, etc which will be inferior to our AAD/PDV and MKI.




China-Russia don't have any close relationship. They have neutral relation like Japan-South Korea. And Russia didn't supplied any strong military hardware to China which i already explained. I can give 10's of Link where Russia-China bad relation will hit this thread.

Russia is still our one of the best friends whereas USA is still friend of Pakistan and neutral to us. It's better to trust Israel, UK, France but U.S. They are back-stabber. Remember 1971 ? :thumb:

In case of any war. which may effect US, would directly put arms embargo, but this would not be seen from Russia, Israel and some EU Nations,,,,,, main reason US wanted to intervine 1971 war was, India destroyed its Submarine and its supermacy in Asia...

 

[Galaxy]

In case of any war. which may effect US, would directly put arms embargo, but this would not be seen grom Russia, Israel and some EU Nations,,,,,,

It's all about Geo-Political reasons.

China/Russia consider U.S.A. as enemy No. 1 - So, both can't be enemy to each other. So, they have neutral relation for bigger picture.

US consider China as enemy No. 1 - So, they trying to make India ready to face China (Indirectly). They have encircled China from Japan to Philippines. They can't bring Russia on board, so North/CAR gone. What left ? J&K to Malacca strait. So, indirect support to India for proxy against China. Although we do have threat from China. So enemy's enemy = Friend.

As for India, Russia is still best friend. China best friend is Pakistan. US is friend of Pakistan (due to Afghanistan now), Earlier in 70's US thought Pakistan would be big power and later in 80's and 90's they needed Pakistan for Afghanistan. Today may be neutral.

But China/Russia can make some adjustment due to US as threat. But Russian economy is not that strong, Hence Russia will be always neutral due to bitter experience in Cold era and better relation with India vis-a-vis China.

European are friend of MONEY and not allies. India is doing well, So Europe is our friend. Israel is our good friend in irrespective of any situation.

Hence, Our best Friends - Russia, Israel
Mild Positive until we can afford to Buy/Geo-Political reason - Europe/USA
We have good relation with most of the countries due to various reasons.

 

[civfanatic]

What a useless thread.

If you are so concerned about China then why don't you go get the uber-influential Indo-American lobby I always hear about to ban all U.S. imports from China.

The U.S. has done far more to help China than Russia ever did, or could.

 

[pmaitra]

I know many here will jump over me but truth is that any country which has helped china most in terms of military equipments and technology its Russia. whatever china has is either made in Russia or cheap copies of Russian systems. Maybe there sre some economic compulsions but Russians are biggest helpers of our nemesis.

True. But do not forget the USSR actually fought a border war with PRC.
Sino–Soviet border conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If India moves to the west to source its wares, Russia will sell to Pak and there is no doubt in that. In fact the Russians have been noticing Indias increasing closeness with the west and is opening up to Pak.

Pakistan already uses Mil-17 helicopters.

Let's drop the brotherhood part and stop comparing Russia with the erstwhile USSR.

My thoughts exactly.

And I was wondering who is that Indian who opened such a thread. Our very own Desi Amerian!

US has helped China with the greatest weapon of all, a mighty economy. Capitalist brothers who are opportunistic enough not to let their divergent political ideologies come in the way of economic interests.

The Americans would'nt trade with communist Cuba but have no qualms being China's biggest trade partner.

Thank you for highlighting the hypocrisy of the US. Add Vietnam to the list, yet another Communist country.

And, x2 for all posts hitherto by Daredevil.

 

[debasree]

russia is still our no-1 ally and they are helping us in many high tec sector such as various missiles ,subs stealth frigates and many army and air force projects ,and us so far supply us some tranport planes and radars ,and still without vital technolodgy ,and besides russia gives us that type of tec that they never share with anyones even china ,us have to go a long way to be our ally ,but so far we heard some sweet talkings but no concreate steps ,even the much hyped nuke deal is in limbo now,us is replaced by france and russia once again so again please dont post rubbish ,staying in us does not means that u support them blindly ,so please dont

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Param wrote:

US has helped China with the greatest weapon of all, a mighty economy. Capitalist brothers who are opportunistic enough not to let their divergent political ideologies come in the way of economic interests.

Are Chinese capitalistic now? Mao must be whirling in his grave. The way the USG "supports" China is by selling it US Treasury notes, because the USG can't find a way to spend less than its income. The American people support China by going to WalMart and buying Chinese goods.

What is most important is that Russia and India have in common that they face serious threats from Islamic extremists, more so than any other country, including the US even after 11 September 2011.* Russia and India should be allies.

*Muhammad Ali Jinnah died 11 September 1948. I wonder if there was a connection to that date in 2001. Probably just a coincidence,

 

[Param]

Param wrote:

Are Chinese capitalistic now? Mao must be whirling in his grave. The way the USG "supports" China is by selling it US Treasury notes, because the USG can't find a way to spend less than its income. The American people support China by going to WalMart and buying Chinese goods.
.
What is most important is that Russia and India have in common that they face serious threats from Islamic extremists, more so than any other country, including the US even after 11 September 2011.* Russia and India should be allies.

*Muhammad Ali Jinnah died 11 September 1948. I wonder if there was a connection to that date in 2001. Probably just a coincidence,

You misunderstood me.US does not support China.China does not need the support of India. Forget about China all, that US could have done with regards to India is make atleast a quarter of the investments made in China.
I have nothing against America and I want good ties between India and the US.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

[What the ] US could have done with regards to India is make at least a quarter of the investments made in China.

Do you refer to private or government investment? In either case, the US would benefit more with India than China, I believe.

 

[Adux]

It is not for the US Government to decide where the Investment goes, they are all private companies in USA, They are not a Centralized Commie Country, but it is for Indians to make conduicive enviornment for private players to invest in India from across the globe. China doesnt have a militant labor nor do they lack infrastructure, nor do they completely stupid tax structure or nor do they have a government hell bend on being socialist and stiffling private players. India is more Communist than China. FACT

 

[The Messiah]

lmao another bogus thread

 

[Tianshan]

And I was wondering who is that Indian who opened such a thread. Our very own Desi Amerian!

US has helped China with the greatest weapon of all, a mighty economy. Capitalist brothers who are opportunistic enough not to let their divergent political ideologies come in the way of economic interests.

The Americans would'nt trade with communist Cuba but have no qualms being China's biggest trade partner.

very true. russia helped us with our weapons and our nuclear weapons program

however, america helped us with our greatest weapon of all, our economy.

they helped to build us up as an opponent to the soviet union after our fall out with ussr. now their own weapon is growing beyond their control.

at least russia stopped helping us with nukes after they realized how strong we might be. america even today keeps feeding us even though they know better. they could have stopped us easily 1-2 decades ago, but they didn't want to.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Param wrote

The Americans would'nt trade with communist Cuba but have no qualms being China's biggest trade partner.

The reason for the Cuba embargo is that America has a big Cuban expatriate population whose properties were confiscated by Castro.

 

[spikey360]

Let's drop the brotherhood part and stop comparing Russia with the erstwhile USSR.

I will agree to that. Russia is not Soviet Union. But just because a country shifts from communism to capitalism doesn't mean they have a change of heart and all fillial feelings disappear.

 

[Param]

Param wrote

The reason for the Cuba embargo is that America has a big Cuban expatriate population whose properties were confiscated by Castro.

Doesn't America have a signficant Chinese, Korian and Vietnamese who faced a similar fate after the rise of the communists in their country?

 

[amitkriit]

It is not for the US Government to decide where the Investment goes, they are all private companies in USA, They are not a Centralized Commie Country, but it is for Indians to make conduicive enviornment for private players to invest in India from across the globe. China doesnt have a militant labor nor do they lack infrastructure, nor do they completely stupid tax structure or nor do they have a government hell bend on being socialist and stiffling private players. India is more Communist than China. FACT

Wrong info, USA strategically invested in Chinese economy to create a rival for USSR. Even in an open economy governments can influence decision makers in major corporates. All big corporate houses in USA have political affiliation, given the right moment, right guidelines and encouragement they did what they had to. Cold War is a big reason behind Chinese prosperity.

Even a capitalist India won't be able to attract US investment for a simple reason, we were in the rival camp and corporate investments do have a sentimental angle (Don't believe me? Have a look at Stock Markets).

 

[Dovah]

Why do we expect other nations to ignore their own interest for the sake of ours?
There is NO nation that is obligated to help us, at the end of the day we have to stand on our own feet. Russia(USSR) helped us when no one did, they till date refuse to deal with our enemy No.1(Pstan).
Furthermore, all this talk of them supplying to our "enemy" China, it is strictly business its not as if they are supplying them weapons to maintain "balance of power" in the region or dumping more weapons into a terrorist infested hellhole to "prevent" an arms race(not sure how that works).

bout some low level weapons being given to Pak by the US

F-16 fighters are low level weapons?
And Aks are high level?

we all know how close China - Russia realtionship is and that it has always supplied military hardware to China for assets that can/will be used against India.

A bomber vs Our Nuke Program, Supersonic Cruise missile, Nuclear Submarine, Stealth fighter.....
Choose.


India would benefit from better relations with the US no doubt but to say that Russia has been "hoodwinking" India is unfair, it's not a zero sum game that India can't have both Russia and the US as friends and neither is it essential for us to have any of them as allies.

While I personally believe we must be "completely" self reliant its always good to have reliable allies since there is a bigger fish to fry in the future.

 

[Adux]

Wrong info

Not really.

USA strategically invested in Chinese economy to create a rival for USSR.

Yes, they did. But the main and pivotal point is, the Chinese responded.

Even in an open economy governments can influence decision makers in major corporates.

Not really, all they can do is give tax breaks, and have better country to country realtions

All big corporate houses in USA have political affiliation, given the right moment, right guidelines and encouragement they did what they had to.

Apple moved to China, not because US Government told them to, rather it made more business sense. They could have stayed back in US, but they didnt,

Cold War is a big reason behind Chinese prosperity.

China used it to their advantage, question is have Indians?

Even a capitalist India won't be able to attract US investment for a simple reason, we were in the rival camp and corporate investments do have a sentimental angle (Don't believe me? Have a look at Stock Markets).

sentimental angle and wall street? lol.
You are talking about what happened 20 years ago, dial down on the conspiracy theories, sometimes the answer lies out in the open.
even now as business man, let me tell you, we have the most miltant labor and idiotic tax structure, India is not good place to invest in comparison to lot of other countries.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Doesn't America have a signficant Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese who faced a similar fate after the rise of the communists in their country?

Good question. I would say he Cuban expatriates are rich, vocal, and have been well-organized for years. They left Cuba with significant resources, unlike the Vietnamese who floated away from their country on rafts.