Orbat Libya Conflict

Rage

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^ That picture was reportedly of a rebel fighter jet being downed by loyalist AAA's: according to one report. And of a Libyan AF jet being downed: by another. Massive propaganda going on on both sides. The Calgary Herald is reporting residents of Benghazi, are screaming for US and Western military aid, saying "US men are not afraid to die"; while Libyan state T.V. is apparently showing pictures of thousands of young men sitting in at the Benghazi international airport, apparently to deter bombings, waving green flags in support of Ghaddafi.


But I'm curious, how the hell did the rebels get hold of a jet? And who flew the plane? an ex pilot, unlikely, since Libya guards its flying-men closely. And former airforce-personnel are unlikely to have turned on their government, however corrupt it is.


This guardian.co.uk video says it was the rebels' sole fighter-plane:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/mar/19/libya-fighter-jet-shot-down-benghazi
 

SHASH2K2

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^ That picture was reportedly of a rebel fighter jet being downed by loyalist AAA's: according to one report. And of a Libyan AF jet being downed: by another. Massive propaganda going on on both sides. The Calgary Herald is reporting residents of Benghazi, are screaming for US and Western military aid, saying "US men are not afraid to die"; while Libyan state T.V. is apparently showing pictures of thousands of young men sitting in at the Benghazi international airport, apparently to deter bombings, waving green flags in support of Ghaddafi.


But I'm curious, how the hell did the rebels get hold of a jet? And who flew the plane? an ex pilot, unlikely, since Libya guards its flying-men closely. And former airforce-personnel are unlikely to have turned on their government, however corrupt it is.


This guardian.co.uk video says it was the rebels' sole fighter-plane:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/mar/19/libya-fighter-jet-shot-down-benghazi
Rage there is rebellion in armed forces as well though its on very small scale. few pilots also defected with their airplanes. Any Ideas from where rebels got their weapons? It was all from Government weapon depots .
 

pmaitra

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Interesting. So the jet that was shot down was a rebel jet as per BBC report.

So apparently this is just a civil war and external intervention is there to take a side.
 

Someoneforyou

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Factbox: Military assets in play in Libya crisis
19 march 2011

Military action authorized by the United Nations against Libyan forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi could take place under NATO command or under a coalition of the willing led by France and Britain.

NATO said its ambassadors would meet to discuss their response, while analysts expect an initial strike would target Libya's military aircraft, air force bases and communication systems.

Following are assets that could be used in action against Libya, and those belonging to Gaddafi's military:

FRANCE
France, which was at the forefront of the push to take action in Libya, would likely deploy Mirage and Rafale fighters from air bases near the Mediterranean towns of Marseille and Istres or from the island of Corsica.

Airborne refueling tanker aircraft are also ready to depart from Istres.

Fighter jets could reach Libya in around an hour and a half from the south of France and in around an hour from Corsica.

France's Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier is at the Mediterranean port of Toulon and could be deployed on Sunday.

The carrier could reach the Libyan coast in one and a half days carrying 15 fighter jets. Its battle group includes three frigates, a fuel-supply ship and an attack submarine.

France rejoined NATO's military command in 2009.

BRITAIN
Britain said it would deploy Typhoon patrol jets and all-weather Tornado attack aircraft which are based at Royal Air Force bases in Scotland and the eastern county of Norfolk but would be moved in the coming hours to unidentified bases nearer Libya.

Prime Minister David Cameron told parliament that air-to-air refueling and surveillance aircraft would also be used.

Britain has two frigates off the Libyan coast: HMS Cumberland and HMS Westminster. The Ministry of Defense said it was not clear if they would be used in any operation and added destroyers could also be deployed.

UNITED STATES
The Pentagon said that it was ready to carry out orders on Libya but said it would not discuss possible operations.

The U.S. Navy has five combat ships in the Mediterranean, including at least one guided missile destroyer. The United States does not have any aircraft carriers close to Libya.

The USS Enterprise, which in recent weeks was stationed in the Red Sea, has been moved eastwards, away from Libya, to join the USS Carl Vinson, in the Arabian Sea to support Afghanistan operations.

Aviano, south of the Alps in Italy, is the region's only U.S. air base with aircraft assigned to it -- 42 F-16s. The Pentagon has declined to discuss the positioning of other planes in the region.

The United States has a range of military bases and installations in the Mediterranean elsewhere in Italy, Greece, Spain and Turkey.

ITALY
Italy has given its full support to military action against Libya, saying that it would actively participate and offering its airbases.

Defense Minister Ignazio La Russa said seven bases in Italy -- at Amendola, Gioia del Colle, Sigonella, Aviano, Trapani, Decimomannu and Pantelleria -- were available and some allies had already asked to use them.

Five of them are on the southern mainland or Sicily, making them some of the closest available bases to Libya.

SPAIN
Spain has offered up to six F-18 bombers and an F-100 frigate, as well as troops. Two Spanish bases - Rota in Cadiz and Moron de la Frontera in Sevilla -- are also available for use in the military operation.

NORWAY
Norway said it will make its F-16 fighter jets available for an operation in Libya and could also provide Hercules transport aircraft to assist in humanitarian efforts.

DENMARK
Denmark said it would send six F-16 planes and one military transport plane to support an intervention in Libya. The planes were ready to leave Denmark on Saturday for a southern European base with around 100 personnel including pilots and support.

NETHERLANDS
The Dutch government said it backs the no-fly zone over Libya and would support a military intervention if asked, but has not been asked to contribute for now.

SWEDEN
Non-NATO member Sweden is seen as possibly coming into support enforcement of the no-fly zone at a later stage.

ARAB NATIONS
Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar are seen as the most likely Arab nations to provide back-up for an operation.

- - - - - - - -

LIBYA
Libya's military before the insurrection was on paper made up of 100,000 troops, backed by heavy artillery, tanks, warplanes and a small navy.

Since the rebellion, some members of the armed forces have defected and some hardware has fallen into rebel hands.

The level of rebel strength is difficult to ascertain, but the best-equipped and -trained units -- up to 12,000 men -- have remained loyal to Gaddafi because they are outside the regular army structure and are commanded by family members or people in his inner circle.

Libya's military has been undermined by sanctions and neglect. Much equipment is poorly maintained or unusable.

In Libya's east around Benghazi, regular military forces appear to have either defected to the opposition or melted away. Citizen groups have taken up arms. But analysts say the opposition lacks command and control.

STRENGTH ON PAPER:

GROUND FORCES - Numbers: 50,000 including 25,000 conscripts.

Main Battle Tanks - 800, although many are thought to be inoperable.

Armoured Infantry Fighting vehicles - 1,000.

Armoured personnel carriers - 945.

Artillery pieces 2,421

Air Defense surface-to-air missiles - More than 400.

NAVY - Numbers: 8,000. Two patrol submarines, which might both be out of action. Three surface vessels and 16 patrol and coastal ships.

AIR FORCES Numbers: 18,000. Combat capable aircraft - 394 (A mixture of Russian and French aircraft, many non-operational or in store) French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said on Tuesday that only 20 were operational.

Air Defense Command has at least 216 surface-to-air missiles and 144 towed and 72 self propelled missiles. Maintenance may be an issue. Most analysts believe Libya's armed forces could not seriously threaten outside air forces enforcing a no-fly zone.


Sources for Libyan military: Reuters/IISS Military Balance 2011.


Source: Reuters
 
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Interesting. So the jet that was shot down was a rebel jet as per BBC report.

So apparently this is just a civil war and external intervention is there to take a side.
Then this must have been planned long ago??
 

Rage

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Rage there is rebellion in armed forces as well though its on very small scale. few pilots also defected with their airplanes. Any Ideas from where rebels got their weapons? It was all from Government weapon depots .
Yeah, but those pilots sought asylum in Malta. Very unlikely that they would be sent into combat, as they would reveal important information about Libyan Orbat, AF personnel, intelligence and security doctrine on an on-going basis.

I find it hard to believe they were rebels. It more likely seems to be a Libyan AF jet that just caught fire.
 

p2prada

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US won't intervene with ground troops. They gave the bloke a peace prize, remember. He can't declare war on a country without direct UN involvement and that won't happen so quickly.
 

SHASH2K2

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Yeah, but those pilots sought asylum in Malta. Very unlikely that they would be sent into combat, as they would reveal important information about Libyan Orbat, AF personnel, intelligence and security doctrine on an on-going basis.

I find it hard to believe they were rebels. It more likely seems to be a Libyan AF jet that just caught fire.
In that videos there were few gunshots heard and people were cheering when plane was falling.I feel that if it was a rebel plane people wouldn't cheer .
 

SHASH2K2

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In that videos there were few gunshots heard and people were cheering when plane was falling.I feel that if it was a rebel plane people wouldn't cheer .
Defection to Malta is known to everyone but internal defection from one side to other will not be known easily.
 
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US won't intervene with ground troops. They gave the bloke a peace prize, remember. He can't declare war on a country without direct UN involvement and that won't happen so quickly.

http://nation.foxnews.com/libya/2011/03/19/european-governments-puzzled-us-position-libya
European Governments 'Puzzled' by U.S. Position on Libya

Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/libya/201...ments-puzzled-us-position-libya#ixzz1H46df4qm

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/officials-us-not-involved-878207.html
Officials: US not involved in initial Libya action

Obama trying to give an appearance of non involvement??
 

Armand2REP

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French official: Mirage and Rafale fighters flying over Benghazi, could strike Libyan tanks

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ke-libyan-tanks/2011/03/19/ABPuUUv_story.html


French Rafale fighters flying over Libya


PARIS - Several French army fighter jets (Rafale) flew on Saturday over the "the entire territory of Libya" for reconnaissance missions, said French military sources.

The Rafale jets have left in the early afternoon of the base of Saint-Dizier in eastern France, where they are based, they added.

The same source added, these "reconnaissance missions" must last throughout the afternoon on Saturday and Rafales have encountered no difficulties after several hours of flight over the Libyan territory.

The Rafale is designed for bombing missions, reconnaissance and air defense.

These overflights took place while was held in Paris an extraordinary international summit on Libya, which appears like a last diplomatic sequence with the likely trigger for air strikes against the regime of Muammar Gaddafi.

http://www.ennaharonline.com/en/international/6063.html

17h45: "Twenty units are engaged today"
Colonel Burkhard presents the various mechanisms set up by the French army to intervene in Libya as part of the resolution at the UN.

http://www.20minutes.fr/article/690...x-rafale-deux-mirage-francais-au-dessus-libye
 

Armand2REP

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So France has 20 Rafale and Mirage-2000s already flying over Libya. A flight of 4 Rafale made the recon runs.
 

Rage

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In that videos there were few gunshots heard and people were cheering when plane was falling.I feel that if it was a rebel plane people wouldn't cheer .
Yeah, but the gun shots could've been from anywhere. Benghazi is a rebel-dominated city, let's not forget, and people have been out on the streets firing gun-shots for days. It doesn't sound like the rat-a-tat-tat of an anti-aircraft gun to me.

On second thought, on looking at the video it certainly seems like it was shot down. The plume from when the aircraft goes incendiary and starts losing altitude, looks like it was made from a projectile hitting it.
 

Rage

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Defection to Malta is known to everyone but internal defection from one side to other will not be known easily.
That may be true. But where are they going to get their aircraft fuel from, take off from or otherwise park their jets in any reasonable servicable condition? This is a desert we're talking about, after all.
 

Armand2REP

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No-fly zone over Benghazi enforced by 2 Rafale and 2 Mirage-2000 backed up by E-3F.
 

Armand2REP

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Someoneforyou

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Russia will not take part in military operation against Libya
Russia - 18 march 2011

Russian forces will not take part in a possible military operation against Libya, First Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin said Friday.

Earlier today, the chief of the Russian General Staff, Nikolai Makarov, told journalists that such an operation is ruled out. "I can only confirm this," Popovkin said.

The 15-nation UN Security Council on Thursday voted to declare Libya a no-fly zone to prevent longtime leader Muammar Gaddafi ordering air strikes on rebel-held cities. Five nations, including veto-wielding China, Russia and Germany, abstained from the vote.

The Council's resolution also authorizes "all necessary measures" against forces loyal to Gaddafi, including military action.

NATO said today morning that it is ready for an international operation against Gaddafi's forces. A NATO source told RIA Novosti that the United States, Britain, France and Canada were among the countries likely to carry out the first airstrikes.

Britain, Norway, Denmark, Italy, Spain, and Qatar voiced their intention to participate in any possible operation against the Gaddafi regime. Poland said it could provide logistic support.

Libya declared on Friday an immediate ceasefire in response to a UN Security Council resolution authorizing a no-fly zone over the war-torn country, Al Jazeera reported.

Libya has been hit by protests demanding the resignation of strongman Gaddafi since mid-February.



Source: Ria Novosti
 

Someoneforyou

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Russia's Zhirinovsky urges Muslim world to support Gaddafi
Russia - 19 march 2011

Vladimir Zhirinovsky, the colorful and flamboyant leader of Russia's LDPR party, on Saturday called on the Muslim world to unite and support Libyan strongman Muammar Gaddafi.

"LDPR turns to all the people of the Muslim countries and urges them to unite and show solidarity with Muammar Gaddafi. The leadership of these countries should make a joint stand against NATO's military efforts in Libya," a statement by Zhirinovsky said.

"Do not ditch Libya face to face with the juggernaut of the North Atlantic bloc. Do not allow NATO to crush the democracy in Libya, especially with regard to the fact, that this country does not threaten anybody. Do not do the short-sighted oversea politicians' bidding," the LDPR leader said.

The tumult in Libya should be brought to stop as any other Muslim country could face the same situation, Zhirinovsky said. "The West is aggressive and resolved. They have not drawn a lesson from the negative experience of military intervention to Afghanistan and Iraq."

Leaders from the United States, Britain, France and Arab countries are meeting in Paris today to discuss ways to act on the resolution authorizing "all necessary measures" to protect civilians.

U.S. President Barack Obama earlier said Gaddafi must stop the violence or face military action.



Source: Ria Novosti
 

Rage

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